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04/06/2002 11:50:12 AM · #1 |
Drew/Langton..There is a level adjuster in Paint Shop Pro that allows you to make individual adjustment to Highlight/Midtone/shadow. Is this a permissible level adjustment?
Vin
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04/09/2002 06:59:29 PM · #2 |
| I also have a question about Levels adjustments allowed. What does that mean. What types of levels? I am very new to this, and don't want to do more than I am allowed. |
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04/09/2002 08:00:04 PM · #3 |
Those levels adjustments sound fine -- as long as they don't adjust hue or saturation!
Drew |
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04/09/2002 08:57:27 PM · #4 |
Are radius changes OK when using unsharp mask? HELP, is this a proper question?
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04/09/2002 09:35:36 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
Those levels adjustments sound fine -- as long as they don't adjust hue or saturation!
Drew
Urm, all levels adjustments adjust hue and saturation. That's kind of the whole point of the levels commands.
I think maybe a lot of the confusion around what is and isn't allowed stems from a misunderstanding of what the hue/sat, contrast/ brightness and levels and curves commands do.
Truth is they all do the same thing, just with varying degrees of control.
They all change what one input RGB value is mapped to what output RGB value (or any other particular 3-space representation of a colour)
Would be good to get this cleared up, as allowing levels adjustments but banning curves adjustments doesn't make much sense, also allowing levels adjustments but banning hue/sat doesn't seem sensible either.
Just hoping to get it cleared up...
Maybe some help, from the photoshop documentation about the hue/sat commands, plus others :
'All Photoshop and ImageReady color adjustment tools work essentially the same way: by mapping an existing range of pixel values to a new range of values. The difference between the tools is the amount of control they provide.'
From the Photoshop documentation, about the curves command
'Like the Levels dialog box, the Curves dialog box lets you adjust the entire tonal range of an image. But instead of making adjustments using only three variables (highlights, shadows, midtones), with Curves you can adjust any point along a 0-255 scale while keeping up to 15 other values constant. You can also use Curves to make precise adjustments to individual color channels in an image.'
I'd suggest that all of the colour adjustment commands should be allowed, simply to fix all the usual problems that digital cameras suffer from (white balance, colour fringes, gamut mappings to monitor space problems, etc)
Gordon
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04/09/2002 10:09:02 PM · #6 |
I would love to have those controls available when preparing my pictures for submission, but not everybody has software as nice at Photoshop... I think it may be an attempt to level the playing field.
Carrying a white or gray surface to take a manual white balance reading from on location can get around many of the hue problems people see with digital cameras. Make it a habit!
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04/09/2002 10:31:09 PM · #7 |
Well since we're on the topic of levels on Photoshop and other software...Are we allowed to change levels other than RGB? Can we go in and individually change the level of the R, G, and B channels as long as its withing the Levels command? Just curious.
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04/09/2002 10:46:57 PM · #8 |
and what is the radius changes?
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04/10/2002 05:12:44 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I would love to have those controls available when preparing my pictures for submission, but not everybody has software as nice at Photoshop... I think it may be an attempt to level the playing field.
Carrying a white or gray surface to take a manual white balance reading from on location can get around many of the hue problems people see with digital cameras. Make it a habit!
That may be true, but drewmedia's reply just didn't make sense, saying that you could use levels, as long as you don't affect hue or saturation. That's what the commands are for!
Also, all of these commands are available for free/ shareware prices
in Paint Shop Pro, you don't need to go to Photoshop to get basic
editing tools.
* This message has been edited by the author on 4/10/2002 5:14:28 AM.
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04/10/2002 05:36:22 AM · #10 |
morning gordon! i think drew's just saying that it's ok to work with levels as in black and white, tone and mids and not any true color correction. is this what you meant? my coffee is still brewing, so I might be a bit confused!
alecia |
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04/10/2002 06:17:34 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by amitchell:
morning gordon! i think drew's just saying that it's ok to work with levels as in black and white, tone and mids and not any true color correction. is this what you meant? my coffee is still brewing, so I might be a bit confused!
alecia
Maybe, but that's what I don't get. Those are all saturation changes. Color is made up of three things, hue, saturation and luminescence. All the levels commands (auto levels, etc) mess with these values.
I believe, though I could be wrong, that the rules are really trying to say don't spot edit your design. Don't add things that weren't there, don't take out dirt, dust, random traffic cones etc that you don't like.
Don't do spot masks to dodge and burn.
As levels/ auto levels are allowed (which certain do vary the hue and saturation to a large degree - auto levels changes the RGB mix for example and shifts a lot of colours - it works on each channel individually) I think it would be good to allow any full image colour correction.
I actually believe this levels the playing field more - I can eventually get good pictures out of my HP Photosmart C20, if I spend some effort to getting the colour balance correct. I can get much
closer straight from the camera with my G2.
Of course, I can get better results if I can just use all the photo editing tools that have equivalents in a traditional darkroom, but that would probably make this into more of a competition about complete photographic technique than just 'what comes out of the camera'.
Those would be all the colour tools and dodge, burn, unsharp masking, the dust and noise filters and the ability to make spot removal/ tidy-up.
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04/10/2002 09:42:23 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by GordonMcGregor:
Of course, I can get better results if I can just use all the photo editing tools that have equivalents in a traditional darkroom, but that would probably make this into more of a competition about complete photographic technique than just 'what comes out of the camera'.
The words "just 'what comes out of the camera'" reminded me of an article by Stephen Livick. The gist is that photographic "vision" is something more than presenting some scene or object (he refers to the cameras of pre-visionary photographers as photocopiers). Even using proper technique does not ensure that the image accurately shows what you saw in the subject. Not that proper Photoshop technique does, either, but I think that's why photographers at a certain stage feel so hobbled by restrictions on processing. Once you start searching for and refining your vision, and how to get it across, it's hard to settle for less. Guess that's a challenge, in a way. [url=//www.livick.com/method/vision/pg1.htm ]Here [/url] is Mr. Livick's article.
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04/10/2002 11:36:23 AM · #13 |
How about this for an idea, lets just pretend that we only have control over the things that a regular mini-lab operator would have control over in priting 35mm film. To be honest in most cases people don't know what the operator dose to our pictures unless they can read that string of numbers and letters on the back of the picture and most people don't care. The things that can be done on a normal printer are adding cyan, magenta, yellow, and a density correction (brighter or darker). Also some cropping can be done but not usually free cropping (example - center crop, just zoom in on the center of the photo). I think that these options are on almost every photo editing program out there which most cameras ship with, and even are availible on some camera models.
Corey
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04/10/2002 12:23:53 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Corey:
How about this for an idea, lets just pretend that we only have control over the things that a regular mini-lab operator would have control over in priting 35mm film. To be honest in most cases people don't know what the operator dose to our pictures unless they can read that string of numbers and letters on the back of the picture and most people don't care. The things that can be done on a normal printer are adding cyan, magenta, yellow, and a density correction (brighter or darker). Also some cropping can be done but not usually free cropping (example - center crop, just zoom in on the center of the photo). I think that these options are on almost every photo editing program out there which most cameras ship with, and even are availible on some camera models.
Corey
So the computer equivalents would pretty much be everything under the image adjustment menu, cropping and sharpening. I could happily live with that...
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04/10/2002 01:23:34 PM · #15 |
Well I'm glad we all sorted that out! - I'll go with Drew's decision - there is a separate hue/saturation level adjustment in the Paint Shop Pro menu.
Vin
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04/10/2002 03:04:16 PM · #16 |
We'll clarify this in the rules too --
No individual channel adjustments. That is, you may adjust your levels on the RGB channel, but not on the R, G, and/or B channels seperately.
We feel that individual channel adjustments, like hue/saturation adjustments, alter the image too far beyond its original meaning. The 'red' challenge, for example would have been ruined because anyone could have turned up the red channel on their favorite image.
Fair?
Drew |
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04/10/2002 03:48:48 PM · #17 |
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04/10/2002 04:01:49 PM · #18 |
me too, but then again I was OK with it no matter what :)
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04/10/2002 04:07:36 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
We'll clarify this in the rules too --
No individual channel adjustments. That is, you may adjust your levels on the RGB channel, but not on the R, G, and/or B channels seperately.
We feel that individual channel adjustments, like hue/saturation adjustments, alter the image too far beyond its original meaning. The 'red' challenge, for example would have been ruined because anyone could have turned up the red channel on their favorite image.
Fair?
Drew
I'm sorry, I am so new to all of this - could I please have the 'english' version (blonde version; with pictures would work well here (jk)) of what this means? For all I know R G and B channels are your local TV stations. I realize I have no business playing with a loaded camera, :P but I can't help myself - it's fun! :) But aside from fun, I'm here to learn! So, my questions are what are they, where are they and most importantly how do I avoid changing them so not to be disqualified? Thanks!!
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04/10/2002 04:28:39 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by drewmedia:
We'll clarify this in the rules too --
No individual channel adjustments. That is, you may adjust your levels on the RGB channel, but not on the R, G, and/or B channels seperately.
We feel that individual channel adjustments, like hue/saturation adjustments, alter the image too far beyond its original meaning. The 'red' challenge, for example would have been ruined because anyone could have turned up the red channel on their favorite image.
Fair?
Drew
It all seems fair - it's your competition after all! Would it be resonable then to use the curves command, as long as you only use it on the RGB channel then ? That way it is just a more flexible version of the levels command and a whole lot easier to get the correct effect. You can do the same thing using the levels commands multiple times, it is just a PIA to do it.
It is available in most image processing applications, and not just high end stuff like Photoshop.
Gordon
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04/10/2002 04:32:15 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by vin rigby:
Well I'm glad we all sorted that out! - I'll go with Drew's decision - there is a separate hue/saturation level adjustment in the Paint Shop Pro menu.
Vin
Now I'm more confused - do you think you can or can't use the hue/saturation command in paint shop pro ?
Do you think that the levels commands don't affect the hue/saturation ?
If you are doing changes in how strong a colour is (ala levels on the RGB channels all at once) everything you are doing is affecting saturation.
If you fiddle with the R,G or B channels individually you affect the hue, as well as saturation - I think what I'm hearing from Drew is that
you can't affect the hue, but any brightness/luminscense changes are okay. Least that is what he said.
Sorry - this is what I get like when I have a job that is all about dealing with colour spaces and adjusting them. Colour is quite a complex subject, and lots of people misunderstand what is going on.
* This message has been edited by the author on 4/10/2002 4:33:55 PM.
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04/10/2002 06:08:01 PM · #22 |
Vin Wrote
textWell I'm glad we all sorted that out! - I'll go with Drew's decision - there is a separate hue/saturation level adjustment in the Paint Shop Pro menu.
Gordan, just to clarify my statement above, that levels adjustments and auto levels adjustments found in the Paint Shop Pro program are within the Challenge rules only when used against the full image. My point above was to state that 'hue and saturation' changes were available within the same menu in Paint Shop Pro which obviously are against the Challenge rules which cannot be used.
Drew, we need absolute ruling on the use of 'levels/auto levels' in PSP or PS as permitted by the rules' being applied only to the entire submitted image. Sorry to be a bind but this discussion could go on forever.
Vin
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04/10/2002 06:27:46 PM · #23 |
But autolevels manipulates the R, G and B channels independently. Honestly, if levels on the RGB channel only is the rule (and we don't hear something about B/W sooner than later) I'm most likely going to lose interest.
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04/10/2002 06:48:21 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by vin rigby:
Vin Wrote
[i]textWell I'm glad we all sorted that out! - I'll go with Drew's decision - there is a separate hue/saturation level adjustment in the Paint Shop Pro menu.
Gordan, just to clarify my statement above, that levels adjustments and auto levels adjustments found in the Paint Shop Pro program are within the Challenge rules only when used against the full image. My point above was to state that 'hue and saturation' changes were available within the same menu in Paint Shop Pro which obviously are against the Challenge rules which cannot be used.
Drew, we need absolute ruling on the use of 'levels/auto levels' in PSP or PS as permitted by the rules' being applied only to the entire submitted image. Sorry to be a bind but this discussion could go on forever.
Vin
[/i]
Okay, but the point still is that the levels command is a hue/saturation adjustment tool.
Drew made it clear he doesn't want people to do hue modifications, which would be a perfectly reasonable thing to leave it at. Except that is exactly what the 'auto levels' commands do. They mess with all of the channels independently. Now, I can change the hue automatically, but I'm not allowed to do it directly ?
I think all this continuing argument stems from people just plain not understanding what levels, auto levels, curves, or hue/saturation do.
It isn't that hard, they all let you do the same thing, modify the hue, saturation and lumincense of colours in your picture. Another way of saying exactly the same thing is that they let you change the mapping between red, green and blue.
Colour is 3 dimensional, it can be represented by RGB, Lightness and 2 other colour channels (call them A & B for no particular reason, and you get LAB colour) Call it Hue, saturation and brightness, and you get HSV colour spaces.
They are all different representations of the same thing. Changing anything on the whole image using levels, auto levels, curves, hue/saturation etc is doing exactly the same thing
The only reason I'm still going on about this is that the answers that I've seen simply don't make sense if you understand how colour works and how these whole image adjustments work.
To summarise
Autolevels changes hue (RGB individually)
Levels on the RGB channel changes saturation/lightness
Curves on the RGB channel changes saturation/lightness
Hue/saturation commands change luminescence/lightness (told you it was confusing)
I understand Drew's reply about not wanting people to change the hue. If that is the rule then all of the commands can be used, you just have to use them carefully.
However, the rules as currently explained are not consistent with the reality of colour physics. It might be nice if they were, but it isn't true. I suggest maybe reading some of the fundamentals that might make this easier to talk about.
I'd suggest this for the basics
This for more details and an introduction
and this for links to more detailed discussions
Again, I'm just asking, it's your challenge after all. But it would be nice to have an answer that was consistent and made sense.
I still would suggest that any 'all image' alterations, such as levels, curves, hue/saturation, auto-contrast, auto-levels and so on make sense.
I'd draw the line at filters, other than the various sharpening filters you've already allowed, as well as the various non-linear averaging masks, such as despeckle.
* This message has been edited by the author on 4/10/2002 6:51:02 PM.
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04/10/2002 06:52:15 PM · #25 |
Irae, I don't know how 'auto level' works but the rules state;
'Levels Adjustment (Levels, Auto-Levels)' are 'acceptable post-shot modifications' - Drew has clarified that these levels are only to be used against the whole image which I fully agree with. If another spanner is to be thrown into the 'works'what about the high end cameras that allow colour adjustment 'in-camera'?
Is your B&W issue about allowing post-shot changes from colour to B&W -
Don't see any problem with that. presume you are awaiting an answer from admin?
Vin
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