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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Cheesecake instead of the real topic.
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 09/22/2002 01:47:41 PM · #1
What is the general consensus on people submitting mostly naked women instead of the actual challenge? JMSetzler's Forbidden fruit is an example, as is 'Between the Boom Chacka Lakes' in the current competition.

I don't mind the naked women subject (quite the opposite in fact), but it's just cheap that it wins a contest about something other topic. I saw F&Veg pics that I think were much more deserving than the first-prize winner.

Perhaps we should have a contest where the subject is nudes, or somesuch, to let these photographers submit their photos, and hopefully to encourage them to leave them out of the other contests.

I'll just keep voting them at 1, as I would anything which seemed to completely miss the point of the contest. I'd prefer an 'n/a' option so I could distinguish JMS's good photo that didn't qualify from a bad photo. (The disqualify option seems to indicate it's only for cheats, like photoshop, is this wrong?)


Actually, in a funny way, I think I'd have rated 'Forbidden Fruit' fairly highly in this category (Neg Space) because, well, it does use the 'not subject'-space to create the 'Wow'. :)
 09/22/2002 01:57:08 PM · #2
i dont think that setzler's shot won because of the cheesecake factor.

i think it won because it cleverly struck a religious/symbolic/mythological chord in people's minds, while happening to also be on topic, while also happening to be a very well executed photograph.

if it was cheesecake that carried the day, more previous 'cheesecake' shots would have done better on this site (including a cheesecake shot that i submitted), but they haven't.

so i would assume that there is something else that is 'compelling' about jmsetzler's photograph besides the female form contained therein (nice as it is :))....


my 2 cents :) .

Originally posted by WNight:
What is the general consensus on people submitting mostly naked women instead of the actual challenge? JMSetzler's Forbidden fruit is an example, as is 'Between the Boom Chacka Lakes' in the current competition.

I don't mind the naked women subject (quite the opposite in fact), but it's just cheap that it wins a contest about something other topic. I saw F&Veg pics that I think were much more deserving than the first-prize winner.

Perhaps we should have a contest where the subject is nudes, or somesuch, to let these photographers submit their photos, and hopefully to encourage them to leave them out of the other contests.

I'll just keep voting them at 1, as I would anything which seemed to completely miss the point of the contest. I'd prefer an 'n/a' option so I could distinguish JMS's good photo that didn't qualify from a bad photo. (The disqualify option seems to indicate it's only for cheats, like photoshop, is this wrong?)


Actually, in a funny way, I think I'd have rated 'Forbidden Fruit' fairly highly in this category (Neg Space) because, well, it does use the 'not subject'-space to create the 'Wow'. :)


 09/22/2002 01:59:07 PM · #3
I'm going to start replying to every thread with the three words "difference of opinions". It seems to sum up just about everything people have to say.
 09/22/2002 02:26:52 PM · #4
I assumed the woman was comatose and that the apple is the fruit/she is the vegetable. ;)
 09/22/2002 02:26:57 PM · #5
Right on Mag.

 09/22/2002 03:02:18 PM · #6
I just have to say -- as another photographer from Vancouver -- that I distance myself completely from the unsophisticated comments made by the creator of this thread; comments which do not represenst well the great people and photographers of this city. "I'll just keep voting them at 1" indeed! Just barbaric.
 09/22/2002 03:57:39 PM · #7
Originally posted by WNight:
Actually, in a funny way, I think I'd have rated 'Forbidden Fruit' fairly highly in this category (Neg Space) because, well, it does use the 'not subject'-space to create the 'Wow'. :)


i believe you misinterpreted the challenge

as with the pencil challenge, the entry had only to include a F/V in it somewhere - the inclusion of anything else is irrelavent as far as to whether or not the challenge is met


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/22/2002 3:56:23 PM.
 09/22/2002 04:47:57 PM · #8
I don't know anything about any of this but my two girls (ages 10 and 12) who were really into this site and got a camera, etc., etc., have turned off because the forbidden fruit topic had to be explained ("Dad, what is this and why?"), and they don't like having it show up in their face when they log in so they're out (only for awhile I hope). They had the option of saying "I think the Hooters thing is so stupid", but not the log in. I guess this is an adult site anyway in terms of seriousness so their age and natural preferences shouldnt mould anything.
 09/22/2002 05:28:05 PM · #9
I'm sorry they had this response. I'm going to suggest to the admins that we have the option to not display the winning photos on one's home page.
 09/22/2002 05:31:59 PM · #10
Fellow lychee man - that is kind but probabaly too much trouble. If they don't learn to deal with adult topics now then it is only putting off to the future - not necessary I would say - "time and tide ..." lol!
 09/22/2002 05:51:19 PM · #11
It's no trouble to ask them, and kids are not the only one's who might want the option...I think you should have the right to determine the time and place for "that talk," although I suspect most parents put it off far too long...

BTW, how much are lychees in Boston? I think they were about $5/lb here...I was in a Star Market back in the early '80s (my intro to the 24-hour supermarket) and watched in awe as someone bought a dozen large artichokes for about $2 apiece!
 09/22/2002 06:01:17 PM · #12
i am completely flabergasted by this thread. as a modest and maybe even somewhat prudish :) female, i am stunned to hear this discussion. I think that "Forbidden Fruit" is far from cheap. In fact, it barely qualifies as nude! I don't see any part of the female anatomy in this photo other than a torso an a couple of limbs. i live at the beach, so i see more flagrant displays of flesh walking down the boardwalk any given day. this picture envokes in me an idea, a metaphor, an allusion to the sensuality that exists in all of us, not blantant sex. i have seen some wonderfully artistic images on other sites like photosig that make me blush, but many of them have some merit and artistic value. I despise censorship, and i really have a hard time with it in the world of art. i believe that education and understanding with a healthy sprinkling of culture is good for the soul. but how can one expand one's horizons if one insits on closing their eyes to the potential beauty and artistry that exists all around us? kudos to the photographers, authors, painters and sculpters that are uninhibited by society... and/or their own minds.
 09/22/2002 06:09:23 PM · #13
"Holy Jerry Falwell Batman!"

The human form is the NUMBER ONE subject used for teaching art..fruits and veggies probably follow closely.

I would think newbie photogs might want MORE quality human form shots to learn proper exposure levels, lighting, composition..etc, etc....

I'm sorta disappointed we don't see MORE nude photography here..this is where photosig really does a better job.


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/22/2002 6:08:44 PM.
 09/22/2002 06:12:20 PM · #14
Originally posted by hokie:
"Holy Jerry Falwell Batman!"

The human form is the NUMBER ONE subject used for teaching art..fruits and veggies probably follow closely.

I would think newbie photogs might want MORE quality human form shots to learn proper exposure levels, lighting, composition..etc, etc....

I'm sorta disappointed we don't see MORE nude photography here..this is where photosig really does a better job.



I think a lot of people avoid it because it is difficult. Although
I'm sure a certain minority avoid it from the shame/ coy/ sinful direction too, though
I've never really gotten a handle on what is so sinful about it. Especially
not in a well taken study of the human form. Some people seem to have
a hard time distinquishing that from pornography.
 09/22/2002 06:23:22 PM · #15
Originally posted by hokie:
"Holy Jerry Falwell Batman!"

..............

I'm sorta disappointed we don't see MORE nude photography here..this is where photosig really does a better job.


Most of us are short a model or two. My wife won't agree yet. :-(

Jim
 09/22/2002 06:23:32 PM · #16
Some of us don't have a model available either...
 09/22/2002 06:36:03 PM · #17
WNight, have you ever heard of 'creativity'? You obviously narrowmindedly imposed a concept of what you thought the challenge was about. John's photo met the challenge perfectly and the fact that you had a narrow view of the challenge doesn't change that fact. I thought it was one of the most creative interpretations of a challenge I have seen.

T
 09/22/2002 07:44:46 PM · #18
General - the ones I saw were $4/lb - so that's about the same! TY for everything and I didnt mean to mess this up with the reference to my daughters. To amitchell - when your 10 year old asks "why is it forbidden fruit with the lady's body" it is not a bad thing and the answer was given, inching us along another little step to adulthood. It just did something to their heads about the site - that's all. No biggie, and no "censorship", and no "insisting on" anyone in my household to "close their eyes". They chose and continue to choose the option of not viewing. Please don't get me wrong and GeneralE ty for the thought but don't change things - amitchell just might be right - I for one don't know. LOL!
 09/22/2002 07:59:07 PM · #19
At Ease, Sgt. (sorry, my handle is no more a military reference than your's, but I couldn't resist!).

No one thought anyone was interested in censoring anything -- my five year-old son and his sisters (12, 14, 17) also visit this site, and I have no desire to change the rules on this matter. I think they are reasonable and AMAZINGLY well-followed. I would be far more concerned with having them read some of the forum threads (see current thread on rules changes) than viewing any of the submissions. Kids are liable to see ANYTHING ANYWHERE these days -- learning to analyze images critically (for both content and style) is a necessary skill these days, and this is an ideal site for it, especially since YOU can do it with them.
 09/22/2002 08:02:10 PM · #20
sgt--no worries--my post wasn't aimed at you--the child initiation into the world of art (world in general!) is a whole 'nother can of worms! i stand by what i said--but really directed it at us "legal adults" who should by now be somewhat educated in life. every parent wants to do right by their children and i have absolutly no arguement there! i just get frustrated by other adults who minimize other's work and lump it into some riduculous small category.
 09/22/2002 09:15:29 PM · #21
Originally posted by conceptgraphics:
I assumed the woman was comatose and that the apple is the fruit/she is the vegetable. ;)

ROFL! Hard to type this with tears in my eyes.... I took the apple to be a garden of eden type reference. Personally, I find it harder to give "cheescake" high marks. (Could be a WeightWatchers thing...) Seriously though, I tend to vote lower if I think I'm being played with skin.
-alex


 09/22/2002 09:23:10 PM · #22
Well, maybe I should finally break down and post here....

*My* vision with this photo was as mentioned here... an interpretation of the original sin theme... the garden of eden... in some metaphorical way, for sure, but the theme is there.

The *cheesecake* comment doesn't bother me at all. I know that some people are offended by images of this nature, no matter what. We saw that earlier this week already in a different thread.

As for kids viewing this image... I'm not sure... The image is not 'dirty' or sexual in nature, other than the fact that it is an attractive and well formed female in the photo. Everyone has different opinions about what is 'dirty' and what isn't... I don't argue that point at all.

Someone earlier said it best... You will find more nudity in the Sistine Chapel than you will on DPChallenge...


09/22/2002 09:54:27 PM · #23
Guys, I hate to break it to you, but as a 5th grade teacher, I can assure you that your children have seen and heard worse. You may not realize it, but they know A WHOLE LOT more than you would like to think. Just because you may not allow certain things in your own home, they don't stay there 24/7.
 09/22/2002 11:48:23 PM · #24
Pls get this straight - or actually read more closely - I just passed on something that happened at this end - I logged no complaint whatsoever, and said nothing about the pic being 'dirty' (whatever that means anymore), and there was NO room in what I said for any inference that anything about this site has ever been "disallowed" in my home. You haven't broken a thing to me rumtugger - they aren't with us 24/7 but they're our daughters 24/7 and we're all tracking on what's out there and what we discuss in detail. I just passed along their reaction - something that is irrelevant to your level of photography anyway. One thing is certain - this won't happen again. LOL!
 09/24/2002 01:41:46 AM · #25
It's interesting how far people have run with their opinion of what I said.

I simply said that I find cheesecake to be cheap. I picked on Forbidden Fruit because it's a high profile work by a respected photographer. Nobody could mistake it for a personal attack. Well, I didn't think they could. Funny thing is that JohnSetzler seemed to be the least offended person about this. :)

I'm not at all prudish, I like nudes and sex and so on. But I can also recognize when sex is being used just to sell something (most TV commercials with women in bikinis selling something that's not beach related. Like beer commercials). FFruit seemed a simpler and less creative picture than many of the others in the challenge and yet is placed the highest. To me, this ignores the challenge. Sure, someone could take a picture of anything and include a orange in the corner and technically it'd be a F&V pic, but I think that the subject of the contest deserves more attention than that. This is why I say that I rate these quite low and I wish I had an n/a option because's it's not that the picture is bad, it's just that it's completely off-topic.

I believe that had FFruit not include a pretty woman that it wouldn't have rated above 6-ish. The photo doesn't seem to be what won, the model won the contest. If the challenge were to create a winning advertisement, this would be on topic. As it would in many other contests. But, imho, not in the one it was in.

I think ambaker got what I was trying to say. The nudity isn't the problem, what was is the fact that it seemed like a shallow ploy to get a higher score.

Timj, I'd like to thank you for being the perfect example of a reactionary who didn't actually read what I wrote but instead just frothed a lot at some imaginary slight.
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