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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Voting on large entry challenges
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 05/03/2005 02:20:01 AM · #1
Just floating an Idea. With the open challenges now at high entries 490+
do you think that having a mandatory voting rule would be beneficial?
Even if it was to the 20% threshold.
That way everyone would be required to vote .?
as I said just an idea to get more input.
 05/03/2005 02:27:14 AM · #2
This subject has come up many times before. I don’t think DPC would make it mandatory for everyone to vote or even everyone that entered a particular challenge to vote. Different users have different ways of doing things. So will not vote in a challenge they enter, some will. Some will vote the required 20%, some shoot for 100%. Then we have to think about the ones that have gone on vacation, working extra hours, family business, etc. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration.
I agree with you that voting on 500+ entries is tiresome but no one has been able to come up with a better solution than what we have now. I wish we could.

Message edited by author 2005-05-03 02:30:04.
 05/03/2005 02:27:54 AM · #3
Sounds very reasonable. I'd be in favor of it.
05/03/2005 02:35:17 AM · #4
Originally posted by SDW65:
This subject has come up many times before. I don’t think DPC would make it mandatory for everyone to vote or even everyone that entered a particular challenge to vote. Different users have different ways of doing things. So will not vote in a challenge they enter, some will. Some will vote the required 20%, some shoot for 100%. Then we have to think about the ones that have gone on vacation, working extra hours, family business, etc. There are a lot of variables to take into consideration.

Hmmm Scott, I'm not agreeing that you would have to take any of that into consideration. If you submit an entry, it is fair to expect you to contribute. Business, vacations, etc. aren't taken into consideration as far as the submission dates.

What is the downside to this requirement? More votes? Less Entries? (Repeat Question 1). ;-)
 05/03/2005 03:42:43 AM · #5
The downside is the potential (yet very real) for users to become upset with having to mandatorily vote, and vote in odd, trolling, angry, or vengeful ways. Yes, the vote dump was instituted to combat this kind of thing, but it is hardly flawless, and what's the point in angering a contingent of users by forcing them to do something they really don't want to do? I believe that even in high submission challenges, the images are getting a fair shake in voting, and forcing *everyone* to vote isn't going to do anything positive.. but has the potential, as I said, to disgruntle many and have a very negative effect.

Honestly, what's the real difference between 350 votes on everyone's image, and 550? The mean average will remain the same.

Message edited by author 2005-05-03 03:43:29.
 05/03/2005 04:02:20 AM · #6
Personally I don't bother voting for images that don't catch my eye in the first place, it would take too long to vote for every single picture and would be disheartening for those who recieved poor scores. Voting in this way has the desired effect, the outstanding images recieve outstanding scores and the mediocre point and shoot dross gets what it deserves. If you get no votes, means that more than likely the picture was not worth any votes i.e. technically flawed or lacking imagination/creativity. Personally if mandatory 100% voting was introduced I wouldn't bother knowing that I would have to sytematically wade through hundreds of pictures of fence posts and out of focus shots of peoples dogs etc. to vote for the few that are of excellent quality.
 05/03/2005 04:13:23 AM · #7
Just as there is a significant portion of the users here that feel everyone should vote on the challenges they enter, there is also a significant portion of the users that feel voting on a challenge they entered is a conflict of interest.

A very large number of votes is not required for the outcome to be fair and accurate -- statistically, it only takes a few dozen random votes to have a largely accurate view of how the populace as a whole will view the image. After four or five dozen have voted on a shot the score for that shot stops moving much at all.

A lot of votes are simply not needed -- and the 20% rule is more than sufficient to ensure enough votes are spread around to get a fair view of things. I personally feel after the 20% is reached an individual will better serve the community, and those who have submitted images in particular, by focusing their remaining efforts on making the best comments they are able to make.

It is the commenting that leads to improvement -- not the votes. And that is true for both the giver and the receiver of the comment.

David
 05/03/2005 05:01:22 AM · #8
I hardly ever vote on all the images in a challenge: I simply try to vote and comment on as many as i have time and energy to get through. Sometimes that gets past 20%, sometimes it doesn't.

I do think the 20% rule should be dropped though, and replaced with a simple threshold, a specific number - that way the dial-up people aren't inconvenienced by the high-entry challenges, and people are not encouraged to rush their assessment of the photographs. I would think that a minimum of 40 votes should be about right.

e
 05/03/2005 05:47:43 AM · #9
Originally posted by aled:
Personally I don't bother voting for images that don't catch my eye in the first place, it would take too long to vote for every single picture and would be disheartening for those who recieved poor scores. Voting in this way has the desired effect, the outstanding images recieve outstanding scores and the mediocre point and shoot dross gets what it deserves. If you get no votes, means that more than likely the picture was not worth any votes i.e. technically flawed or lacking imagination/creativity. Personally if mandatory 100% voting was introduced I wouldn't bother knowing that I would have to sytematically wade through hundreds of pictures of fence posts and out of focus shots of peoples dogs etc. to vote for the few that are of excellent quality.


I can't believe that you are voting on thumbnail pics, how can you possibly judge without looking at the whole image in detail.It is impossible to see the emotion and feeling in a micro picture in this way.
This defeats the whole benefits of this site.
Look at a few of the medal winners, and I bet you were the one who gave a 10 image a three or four cos you didnt look properly.
 05/03/2005 08:40:51 AM · #10
Originally posted by tasha4paws:
Originally posted by aled:
Personally I don't bother voting for images that don't catch my eye in the first place, it would take too long to vote for every single picture and would be disheartening for those who recieved poor scores. Voting in this way has the desired effect, the outstanding images recieve outstanding scores and the mediocre point and shoot dross gets what it deserves. If you get no votes, means that more than likely the picture was not worth any votes i.e. technically flawed or lacking imagination/creativity. Personally if mandatory 100% voting was introduced I wouldn't bother knowing that I would have to sytematically wade through hundreds of pictures of fence posts and out of focus shots of peoples dogs etc. to vote for the few that are of excellent quality.


I can't believe that you are voting on thumbnail pics, how can you possibly judge without looking at the whole image in detail.It is impossible to see the emotion and feeling in a micro picture in this way.
This defeats the whole benefits of this site.
Look at a few of the medal winners, and I bet you were the one who gave a 10 image a three or four cos you didnt look properly.


Unless this new member (aled) is talking about the 2 challenges currently under voting, the comment is meaningless.
 05/03/2005 10:41:58 AM · #11
I think its reasonable to expect people who enter a photo in a challenge to then be obliged to vote on a pecentage of entries in that challenge. So if you aint got time to do a bit of voting don't enter
 05/03/2005 10:52:52 AM · #12
Some people feel that they can't be objective if voting on a challenge in which they have entered however rather than not voting at all they vote on challenges in which they don't enter. There's always a compromise that can be made.

I vote and comment when I have the time. This does not always coincide with the challenges that I have entered. I would rather not vote at all if I only have time for the 20%.
 05/03/2005 11:52:11 AM · #13
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!!

I mean, I was away at my girlfriend's for a few days. She has a real slow connection. It would take me 10 hours to vote if required.

I'd no longer be a member...

But this is what I think....anyone who votes on EVERY IMAGE in EVERY CHALLENGE for a whole year should receive a 1-year DPC Membership free!

Anyone who votes AND comments on every photo in every challenge for one year should get lifetime membership. You've truly earned it...
 05/03/2005 11:54:35 AM · #14
"I do think the 20% rule should be dropped though, and replaced with a simple threshold, a specific number - that way the dial-up people aren't inconvenienced by the high-entry challenges, and people are not encouraged to rush their assessment of the photographs. I would think that a minimum of 40 votes should be about right."

[[[I concur, I believe that the 20% rule somewhat impedes me from voting. There are times I am busy and I wish I could just vote and comment on 40 or so that I have time to and really want to comment on.

But a lot of times I don't comment because I don't have time to vote.]]]
 05/03/2005 12:06:30 PM · #15
Originally posted by aled:
Personally I don't bother voting for images that don't catch my eye in the first place, it would take too long to vote for every single picture and would be disheartening for those who recieved poor scores. Voting in this way has the desired effect, the outstanding images recieve outstanding scores and the mediocre point and shoot dross gets what it deserves. If you get no votes, means that more than likely the picture was not worth any votes i.e. technically flawed or lacking imagination/creativity. Personally if mandatory 100% voting was introduced I wouldn't bother knowing that I would have to sytematically wade through hundreds of pictures of fence posts and out of focus shots of peoples dogs etc. to vote for the few that are of excellent quality.


I agree with you in part aled, it is very bothersome to wade through the many pictures that "don't the eye" BUT part of this website is learning from each other and your mistakes. I have only entered a couple challenges due to time and if I don't feel an image is worthly I won't submit (last challenge is an exception). But I do make a point to go through and help out people. Sometimes I don't vote on the amazing images because they appear to know what they are doing, its the ones that don't look so good that I try and help out...even though I'm not a pro I feel like I can help and appreciate when I get comments to help better myself.
I like the idea of the recent open challenge where you had to have so many comments to enter. I am not a paying member so I couldn't enter but I think more like this should be open to non-paying members also, it may help increase voting or comments.
The mandatory comments and voting is of course going to cause people to rush through and check anything or write anything but we are all human and will most of the time try and find a faster or easier way of doing something...right or wrong we all do it at one time or another.
 05/03/2005 12:14:06 PM · #16
Originally posted by theSaj:
"I do think the 20% rule should be dropped though, and replaced with a simple threshold, a specific number - that way the dial-up people aren't inconvenienced by the high-entry challenges, and people are not encouraged to rush their assessment of the photographs. I would think that a minimum of 40 votes should be about right."

[[[I concur, I believe that the 20% rule somewhat impedes me from voting. There are times I am busy and I wish I could just vote and comment on 40 or so that I have time to and really want to comment on.

But a lot of times I don't comment because I don't have time to vote.]]]


But you'd still expect people to find time to vote on the picture you submited right? or whats the point of entering it
 05/03/2005 12:16:41 PM · #17
if you take the time to look at a picture and decide if it moves you, how much more time does it take to cast a vote. A coment is few seconds more. No one is expecting us to write a novel. I only excuse i can see is slow internet connection. But then again i am just a simple housewife from new jersey
 05/03/2005 12:36:14 PM · #18
Why do we need so many votes? If fifty people look a your photo thoughtfully isnt that enough? I'm still for lowering the minimum to 10% - In the old days the challenges were smaller and 20% was more reasonable. Seems to me people have a certain amount of time to vote a week, if they vote on fewer, they then spend longer on each photo. There is nothing to gain from encouraging speed voting, after 100 votes your score hardly changes.
 05/03/2005 02:50:28 PM · #19
Originally posted by aled:
Personally I don't bother voting for images that don't catch my eye in the first place, it would take too long to vote for every single picture and would be disheartening for those who recieved poor scores. Voting in this way has the desired effect, the outstanding images recieve outstanding scores and the mediocre point and shoot dross gets what it deserves. If you get no votes, means that more than likely the picture was not worth any votes i.e. technically flawed or lacking imagination/creativity. Personally if mandatory 100% voting was introduced I wouldn't bother knowing that I would have to sytematically wade through hundreds of pictures of fence posts and out of focus shots of peoples dogs etc. to vote for the few that are of excellent quality.

While I agree that not every image needs to be voted upon by every person, 'chery-picking' those you vote on is not in the spirit of the competition. It is, however, well within the rules. Until they change the voting requirements by removing the option to 'cherry=pick' (it's been discussed many times, and has strong support) your method of voting is as valid as any other.

As you say, the desired result is achieved. That is, if you view the desired result to be a winner to be declared. However, the challenges are a method of improvement and that improvement improves only with careful examination of what needs improving. Taking the time to share your knowledge of why a persons image fails to live up to your expectation benefits them greatly -- but, as those who comment often will agree it is the act of evaluating those images that don't quite measure up that leads to the developement of a photographers 'eye'.

You are free to vote as you like, but continue with your current method knowing that you would be helping yourself far more than the photographer of the image by placing a few short comments.

I feel the voting stage should be changed to the commenting stage. The votes do nothing but choose a winner, and are themselves a form of comment -- but the comments are where the benefit of the challengs lie, to both the photographer and those who take the time to place them.

David

Message edited by author 2005-05-03 14:56:47.
 05/03/2005 03:21:48 PM · #20
Seems to me it would be better restrecting the number of entries to a resonable number and require all those who entered to vote. Then, maybe if you had more challenges going on at the same time members would be distributed over more ground because they would have more choices of challenges....Both these suggestions together may make things easier in the long run for everybody as well as encourageing more voting.

Barry (just my 2 cents)
 05/03/2005 03:25:59 PM · #21
Oooops I forgot to mention. And this is an opinion....I would like to vote on every image submitted but I find it impossible.....I don't think it feels very good to those who receive no comments or votes...Speaking for myself I like to know that people look at my images first, before ribbons or points on a scale.

Barry
 05/03/2005 03:31:38 PM · #22
Originally posted by Britannica:
While I agree that not every image needs to be voted upon by every person, 'chery-picking' those you vote on is not in the spirit of the competition. It is, however, well within the rules.


well said.

i have often questioned the value of presenting the challenge images all together on a thumbnail page. to me, that encourages the cherry-picking. i personally would prefer voting to be more critique-club like in that you have to work with the next photo that comes up, no going back.

i'm not sure it's technically feasible, however.
 05/03/2005 03:38:42 PM · #23
My original post was meant that all contestants voted on the challenge they entered only if it was to the 20% level, I am not suggesting that everyone vote on 100% that is an impossibility.
 05/03/2005 03:44:24 PM · #24
Personnally, i only vote on a challenge i participate in. The most obvious reason is because i don't always have time. That leaves me with some time off to do other things. But when i do participate, i try to vote on as many as possible. Usually i try the 100% vote/comment, but that just isn't realistic for everyone.

I fully support a 20-50% vote mandatory for anyone who participate in a challenge. I'd even go to say at least 20% Comment.

People who participate in a challenge should have the time to participate in its aftermath (Vote and Comment).

my 2cents.
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 05/03/2005 03:46:16 PM · #25
statistically speaking... after 30 votes your score isn't going to move more than a tenth or so in either direction...
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