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09/11/2002 10:46:12 AM · #1 |
I have not taken my picture yet, but there is a good chance mine will have a patriotic message in it. How about you.. do you think I'm just jumping on the patriotism bandwagon?
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09/11/2002 10:51:33 AM · #2 |
to answer your question honestly - yes I think your jumping on the bandwagon. personally - i think it should be left alone (out of respect)
just my personal opinion - short and to the point
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/11/2002 10:51:03 AM.
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09/11/2002 11:00:13 AM · #3 |
I have to agree with Red. :)
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09/11/2002 11:11:26 AM · #4 |
I agree with Red and Lisa.
I just think that it is opportunistic. It takes advantage of a day that was VERY REAL to some in order to manipulate reactions in the viewer. That strikes me as a tad on the tacky side. I agree with Red that it is most respectful to leave it be.
That said, if it's extremely well done, I will score it accordingly: technical aspects + personal emotional reaction.
Dawn |
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09/11/2002 11:16:27 AM · #5 |
What is the patriotism wagon? If this is how you feel, it would be dishonest to ignore it. I would say a shot such as you describe would be quite timely, and perhaps something you could share with a future generation.
I have choosen my way of rememberance by writings essays of my feelings about this issue from time to time that I share with friends.
I think there is currently too much cynicism in our country currently, and a partriotic display may make an impression on those that may feel they are in the minority.
I stayed out of the challenges for a while, because I only want to take pictures of my family right now, and some people do not like seeing baby/kid pics. I also did not want to be predictable. But then, I thought I needed to be honest, and shoot what I want to. Hope you and everyone feels the same way.
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09/11/2002 11:16:40 AM · #6 |
It may be opportunistic but if its done with skill who can fault?
There is a shot this week on this idea that is magnificant...If we got that level of quality next week I could not argue with them. |
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09/11/2002 11:20:09 AM · #7 |
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with people using a hobby or a skill they love to post a tribute to those who died on 9.11.01. People grieve in different ways, and photography as a means of expression of that grief is not a bad thing, nor is it exploitation, unless they are profiting from it. Americans don't want anyone to forget.
And, with all due respect, no one is forcing you to look OR comment on them.
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09/11/2002 11:24:16 AM · #8 |
Do what I do... photograph whaddEVah ya like and post it :)
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09/11/2002 11:35:21 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by Willa:
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with people using a hobby or a skill they love to post a tribute to those who died on 9.11.01. People grieve in different ways, and photography as a means of expression of that grief is not a bad thing, nor is it exploitation, unless they are profiting from it. Americans don't want anyone to forget.
And, with all due respect, no one is forcing you to look OR comment on them.
I agree with Willa here. If someone posts some sort of tribute, I'm not going to rate them lower for it. I think it would be great to see some tastefull remembrances. |
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09/11/2002 11:41:38 AM · #10 |
Tony,
Good question, and I think the answer lies in the minds of the voters. What one viewer may find to be a well-done and fitting tribute, another may find to be tacky and opportunistic. As such, expect that you will receive negative comments and low scores from some voters regardless of how well you execute your photograph.
Also, some photographers use an emotionally charged subject as a substitute for good photography. Never underestimate the importance of goodphotographic technique. If your submission lacks technique, a strong subject probably will not save you. Also even if your technique is good you may get a "conditioned response" vote from some voters who are used to seeing poorly executed photographs of patriotic subjects.
The bottom line is feel free to shoot what you like (within the site rules, of course). Just remember that if you are going to shoot an emotionally charged subject, you should be prepared for some emotionally charged responses.
-Terry
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09/11/2002 11:42:30 AM · #11 |
Seems like everyone is mixed here...I personally lost someone close, who was working on the 93rd floor of the 1st building. For those that don't know, the plane hit the 90th floor. He didn't have a chance. When I see things about it, it hurts much, and I get angry about what happened. However, where photographs are concerned, I look past the subject matter, and judge accordingly to "technical" stuff.
My thoughts are with Brad Hoorn, age 22, from Richland, Michigan, and his many friends and family. WTC1 93rd Floor. A single bone fragment was found and he returned home to us just recently.
*sigh* I think I'll just go back to bed and stay there all day. It would be a whole lot easier if I didn't have it thrown in my face every day, especially today. (not by you guys...the news is all over people and up in everyones face. the "funeral" was a zoo. you couldn't even cry without a camera in your face).
See ya all around. I think there's a sponge bob square pants marathon on today.
~Heather~ |
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09/11/2002 11:46:20 AM · #12 |
On the flip side of this, the voters would need to be equally tolerant of a nicely shot photo of a burning US flag, with plently of negative space around it...
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09/11/2002 11:57:25 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by manic:
On the flip side of this, the voters would need to be equally tolerant of a nicely shot photo of a burning US flag, with plently of negative space around it...
I would score that photo very low on my subjectivity scale, but if it's technically great, it still could score some points...
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09/11/2002 11:58:23 AM · #14 |
I think that IF its a photo you would have submitted 9/10/2001, you should submit it. If you're trying to play that card for a little extra-sympathy-padding for a rating, GET BENT! I am envisioning many pictures of the spot where the towers used to be as the main culprit of this, probably black and white. If done well, you'll have my vote. Anything not done well, and submitted for the aforementioned padding, be prepared for a big fat "1" from me. If you're gonna pay tribute, do it right or don't do it!!
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09/11/2002 12:00:49 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by manic:
On the flip side of this, the voters would need to be equally tolerant of a nicely shot photo of a burning US flag, with plently of negative space around it...
Manic, your point is very well-taken. In an ideal world the voters would all be judging not the message itself, but the effectiveness with which the photographer conveyed the message. Though I might find such an scene distasteful, I would hope I could vote based upon the message and the power of the message, and perhaps even the photographers courage to take an artistic risk.
It's also worth noting that voting the photographer down for photographing and submitting such a scene would imply an assumption that I thought the photographer agreed with the flag-burning and was not, for example, trying to submit a photojournalistic work. It would be awfully presumptuous of me to clain to know the artist's intent, wouldn't it?
-Terry
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09/11/2002 12:01:30 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by manic:
On the flip side of this, the voters would need to be equally tolerant of a nicely shot photo of a burning US flag, with plently of negative space around it...
<sniff...sniff...>
Hmmm, smells like bait...
I'll pass... |
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09/11/2002 12:05:26 PM · #17 |
I would not tolerate any photo that degrades a persons nation, race, or beliefs. There is a difference between showing support, and showing hatred, they are not comparable to me.
Although Terry has an interesting point, depends on how it is done.
As described, I would probably agree with John.
Originally posted by manic:
On the flip side of this, the voters would need to be equally tolerant of a nicely shot photo of a burning US flag, with plently of negative space around it...
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/11/2002 12:06:00 PM.
* This message has been edited by the author on 9/11/2002 12:06:52 PM.
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09/11/2002 12:12:54 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Zeissman:
I would not tolerate any photo that degrades a persons nation, race, or beliefs. There is a difference between showing support, and showing hatred, they are not comparable to me.
But is the photo intended to degrade or simply to record an event?
-Terry
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09/11/2002 12:15:31 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by manic:
[i]On the flip side of this, the voters would need to be equally tolerant of a nicely shot photo of a burning US flag, with plently of negative space around it...
Manic, your point is very well-taken. In an ideal world the voters would all be judging not the message itself, but the effectiveness with which the photographer conveyed the message. [/i]
I disagree... What would be ideal about that? I want to judge what I see as well as how effectively it was done... |
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09/11/2002 12:19:15 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by just-married:
I agree with Red and Lisa.
I just think that it is opportunistic. It takes advantage of a day that was VERY REAL to some in order to manipulate reactions in the viewer. That strikes me as a tad on the tacky side. I agree with Red that it is most respectful to leave it be.
Dawn
I strongly disagree. To "shun" personal expressions of patriotism because they are "opportunistic" is, to me, the same as shunning personal expressions of faith, because such expressions make you uncomfortable.
Go ahead, stand up for what you feel and believe, and submit "whaddEVah ya like"! ;-) |
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09/11/2002 12:20:37 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I disagree... What would be ideal about that? I want to judge what I see as well as how effectively it was done...
My concern is that such an attitude actively discourages artistic risk. If we penalize taking chances too harshly, we'll end up with a bunch of puppis, kittens, babies and flowers every week (I mean, more than we do now). While that's all very nice, it's the photos that challenge me as a viewer that make the voting worthwhile to me.
-Terry
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09/11/2002 12:28:11 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by Zeissman:
I would not tolerate any photo that degrades a persons nation, race, or beliefs. There is a difference between showing support, and showing hatred, they are not comparable to me.
Although Terry has an interesting point, depends on how it is done.
But wouldn't a photo of a flag be equally "degrading" to someone who's "beliefs" were to burn it? However, what happened to journalist, or documentary photos? I believe that one of the "best" photos ever caught with a camera was that of the man standing in the middle of the road getting his brains blown out. I think that one got the nobel peace prize or something like that. and it was even candid. I'm about the most open minded person when it comes to photos. if it's well done, it deserves the score no matter what the subject is. even if "i don't like it" I still move past that to complete judging by the lighting, angle, framing, focus etc...although I'll be the first to say I dont like, that doesn't stop me from giving it high marks. (maybe not the HIGHEST, but if it deserves it, so be it).
mmmm...French Toast and Pooh bear. I'm going to go join my son.
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09/11/2002 12:31:21 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Willa:
I strongly disagree. To "shun" personal expressions of patriotism because they are "opportunistic" is, to me, the same as shunning personal expressions of faith, because such expressions make you uncomfortable.
I think you misunderstand. Or at least, I think the word SHUN is strong, if you don't misunderstand. I would not give the photo a one. I would judge it on it's artistic merit and then subtract 1-2 points for what I feel is manipulation. The photo this week scored quite well from me considering it's subject matter.
Also, I'm not saying that as a photographer you shouldn't MAKE the photo. I'm saying submitting it to a contest is a bit ...well, fishing for compliments based on feelings of comraderie.
Dawn
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09/11/2002 12:35:27 PM · #24 |
To CJ and Heather,
Personally, I think that it is fairly obvious when something is a photojournalistic attempt. For instance, this week's 9-11 tribute photo was OBVIOUSLY set up. That doesn't make it less good, but it makes it pretty obvious that it wasn't a captured moment.
Dawn |
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09/11/2002 12:51:35 PM · #25 |
If you put the same value on destruction as you do on support, you assertion is correct. Someone showing personally, or national pride should not be offensive IMO.
Showing a person burning a flag in at a protest is one thing, but the photo as described, is using the burning flag with no other point of reference, therefore, to me, the photographer is glorifying, if not initiating the event. Of course, I would have to see the image to judge it.
As far as the photo you were talking about, do you know the story behind it? That was an enemy officer, caught behind enemy lines, out of uniform. He was dispatched in accordance to the Geneva Convention.
At least that is the story I know.
Boy, this is a good discussion.
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Originally posted by Zeissman:
[i]I would not tolerate any photo that degrades a persons nation, race, or beliefs. There is a difference between showing support, and showing hatred, they are not comparable to me.
Although Terry has an interesting point, depends on how it is done.
But wouldn't a photo of a flag be equally "degrading" to someone who's "beliefs" were to burn it? However, what happened to journalist, or documentary photos? I believe that one of the "best" photos ever caught with a camera was that of the man standing in the middle of the road getting his brains blown out. I think that one got the nobel peace prize or something like that. and it was even candid. I'm about the most open minded person when it comes to photos. if it's well done, it deserves the score no matter what the subject is. even if "i don't like it" I still move past that to complete judging by the lighting, angle, framing, focus etc...although I'll be the first to say I dont like, that doesn't stop me from giving it high marks. (maybe not the HIGHEST, but if it deserves it, so be it).
mmmm...French Toast and Pooh bear. I'm going to go join my son.
[/i]
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