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07/21/2022 01:19:19 PM · #1
The former Blue Ribbon image has been disqualified.

There are two facets of the DQ decision:

1. The image is an entirely created image with no component photographs

2. As a consequence of Point 1 above there is no way to validate that the image was created within the permitted time window.

As a learning point for the community, even if we could establish the creation date, the absence of any photographic elements would still lead us to a DQ decision. We would nonetheless commend the artist for exploring the edges of the permitted envelope of our rules and creating a very impressive image for us to enjoy.

We congratulate the new 5th place image on their new Front Page image and the other photographers on their new 4th place and ribbon placings.
07/21/2022 03:12:27 PM · #2
Oh, sad to see this wonderful image DQ-ed. But I am dumbfounded: how could it be created without using any photographic material?! How were the plane and the person created? Margaret, can you explain for uninitiated?
07/21/2022 05:31:00 PM · #3
Wow!

Sad.
07/21/2022 08:46:16 PM · #4
I am not surprised that it got disqualified.

If you go through many of the photos on 1x.com a lot of people use silhouetted people in their images, you can tell these are fake silhouette’s because the outline is just too perfect. I don’t know how they do it but it looks pretty cool. I guess these days you can use fake people anywhere.

Nevertheless a great creation Margaret.
07/22/2022 02:31:34 AM · #5
I am sorry but I will have to argue the case as if this image was DQ'd so should have been this one:

but it wasn't.

I used the same approach for working on both images - took photos of a real object as the basis for their recreation in 3D. After that I added components entirely in 3D. For the lakehouse there were no exact photos for the water and the mountains, just for the main hut, in this image I started with photos of the model plane that my husband made. The rest was done in 3D.

Personally I believe that Extended Editing should be more open ended than it is now. In the last 20 years the technology has moved on, maybe DPC should too. And the rules have nothing to do with this "one day, maybe" new site design issue. They are entirely up to the current SC.

So please open up the rules for Extended so that I can continue to contribute to DP Challenge. I have very little interest left in "Standard Editing" photography.
07/22/2022 05:50:12 AM · #6
Originally posted by LevT:

Oh, sad to see this wonderful image DQ-ed. But I am dumbfounded: how could it be created without using any photographic material?! How were the plane and the person created? Margaret, can you explain for uninitiated?

Both the plane and the person are real. They were scanned by taking many 2D photos and then converted to 3D. I did not scan the person (although I was trying to talk my husband into it :), I just took it from a standard library. I thought that was OK as the resulting virtual photo had it just as a silhouette.

I got the plane as components that someone else scanned, I assembled for use in my scene, sort of like getting virtual Lego bricks. I used my husband's Sopwith Camel model as a guide. The box was built of virtual stone slabs, the cone of light was made in Unreal Engine 5 software by using virtual sun peeking through the hatch and virtual fog.

The whole setup took me quite some time as I am still learning 3D, it is very complicated but I love it! I can have fog and sun beams anytime, and not just a few days a year.
07/22/2022 06:53:40 AM · #7
This is not exactly what I am trying to do as I assemble my own environments but there are more and more people doing virtual photography:
Virtual Photography in Games.

There was even a recent exhibition of a Swiss photographer in Geneva:
In Games Polaroids
(it is in French but you can use Google to do automatic translation, it is pretty good these days) He was going to Iceland to take real photos but because of pandemia his trip was cancelled so instead he found Icelandic landscapes in a video game and took screenshots. Remember that it is a 3D environment so he had to choose the angle, frame etc, same as he would in real life but without getting cold! :)

PS Just found him at the end of the article in English!

Message edited by author 2022-07-22 06:59:07.
07/22/2022 08:40:23 AM · #8
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

This is not exactly what I am trying to do as I assemble my own environments but there are more and more people doing virtual photography:
Virtual Photography in Games.

There was even a recent exhibition of a Swiss photographer in Geneva:
In Games Polaroids
(it is in French but you can use Google to do automatic translation, it is pretty good these days) He was going to Iceland to take real photos but because of pandemia his trip was cancelled so instead he found Icelandic landscapes in a video game and took screenshots. Remember that it is a 3D environment so he had to choose the angle, frame etc, same as he would in real life but without getting cold! :)

PS Just found him at the end of the article in English!


But someone created that artwork in the video game. Yes -- you are choosing the correct moment. But the video artist created the people, the lighting, the shadows, the textures. Can I then just go to a David Attenbourough film and pick a particular place to pause and photograph that and enter it? I'd love to do it. But just picking out a moment in someone else's artwork isn't MY photography. There are so many incredible, beautiful film noir movies, that I'd love to just photograph the screen. How is a video game different than that? It shouldn't be. They do even more work than the videographers. And I wouldn't think you'd support me using their work. Maybe there's something I'm not understanding. (I was only able to read the first article, so maybe I am missing something)

Message edited by author 2022-07-22 08:59:34.
07/22/2022 08:43:58 AM · #9
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

Originally posted by LevT:

Oh, sad to see this wonderful image DQ-ed. But I am dumbfounded: how could it be created without using any photographic material?! How were the plane and the person created? Margaret, can you explain for uninitiated?

Both the plane and the person are real. They were scanned by taking many 2D photos and then converted to 3D. I did not scan the person (although I was trying to talk my husband into it :), I just took it from a standard library. I thought that was OK as the resulting virtual photo had it just as a silhouette.

I got the plane as components that someone else scanned, I assembled for use in my scene, sort of like getting virtual Lego bricks. I used my husband's Sopwith Camel model as a guide. The box was built of virtual stone slabs, the cone of light was made in Unreal Engine 5 software by using virtual sun peeking through the hatch and virtual fog.

The whole setup took me quite some time as I am still learning 3D, it is very complicated but I love it! I can have fog and sun beams anytime, and not just a few days a year.


If you had done the original photograph, then I'd say yes. But isn't that the same as us not being able to use stock images in our creations?
07/22/2022 10:00:11 AM · #10
Originally posted by vawendy:

But someone created that artwork in the video game. Yes -- you are choosing the correct moment. But the video artist created the people, the lighting, the shadows, the textures.


Not in the 3D design that I do, I do not do screenshots from the games but remember that there is a unlimited number of possible screenshots in 3D games as you control where you are in the three dimensional virtual world, time of day etc. The people and the textures I use are photo-scans, can you copyright real people, real rocks? And I choose the lighting, I arrange the fog, the shadows are automatically generated in software. This is called ray tracing (a method of graphics rendering that simulates the physical behavior of light), and it is these days very realistic and very close to the real world. I also built the lake house from bits and pieces, I used the virtual "Lego bricks" and put them together, the result is my own creation. It is a bit like arranging a still life, you most likely would use props that someone else made.

In the lake-house I arranged photo-scanned real mountains, the water was generated by a procedure in the software. The process of designing a scene is the same as choosing real actors, real life locations, building props and sets.

There is no fixed artwork.

Originally posted by vawendy:

Can I then just go to a David Attenbourough film and pick a particular place to pause and photograph that and enter it? ..

The ideas from 2D film frames do not apply to photo-scanned 3D worlds.
07/22/2022 10:05:52 AM · #11
Originally posted by vawendy:

If you had done the original photograph, then I'd say yes. But isn't that the same as us not being able to use stock images in our creations?

Wendy, the concepts from 2D photography do not apply to photo-scanned 3D worlds. Stock photography is 2D.
07/22/2022 10:06:19 AM · #12
The process you describe runs afoul of our artwork rule, as it is currently written. And as difficult as it sounds to assemble all these found elements into the creations you make, they still rely on someone else's work to exist. It would be a different matter if you had captured each of these source images yourself and manipulated those.

So as a site we would need to decide if we are going to be about digital captures we've done, or were about pixel manipulation, no matter the source.

But until we decide, perhaps you could start a side challenge and help guide those who are interested in this type of work!
07/22/2022 10:23:29 AM · #13
Originally posted by tanguera:

The process you describe runs afoul of our artwork rule, as it is currently written. And as difficult as it sounds to assemble all these found elements into the creations you make, they still rely on someone else's work to exist. It would be a different matter if you had captured each of these source images yourself and manipulated those.

So as a site we would need to decide if we are going to be about digital captures we've done, or were about pixel manipulation, no matter the source.

But until we decide, perhaps you could start a side challenge and help guide those who are interested in this type of work!

I keep on thinking about better examples, say you were invited to a movie set and are allowed to take photos, everything around you was designed by other people, would your shots be DQ'd at DPC?

PS Side challenges are dead and I might be the only one who uses these new technologies at DPC. Should I really be punished for trying to break some conventions that may be by now very outdated and conservative? SC can change the rules, this was my starting point.

PS2 I forgot to add that photo-scans are not "artwork" but virtual representation of reality. People can be animated in 3D and you could take photos of them running, jumping etc. You could also pose them in 3D and take a virtual photo. To me that virtual photo would be an artwork created by you.

Message edited by author 2022-07-22 10:40:19.
07/22/2022 11:04:06 AM · #14
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

Originally posted by tanguera:

The process you describe runs afoul of our artwork rule, as it is currently written. And as difficult as it sounds to assemble all these found elements into the creations you make, they still rely on someone else's work to exist. It would be a different matter if you had captured each of these source images yourself and manipulated those.

So as a site we would need to decide if we are going to be about digital captures we've done, or were about pixel manipulation, no matter the source.

But until we decide, perhaps you could start a side challenge and help guide those who are interested in this type of work!

I keep on thinking about better examples, say you were invited to a movie set and are allowed to take photos, everything around you was designed by other people, would your shots be DQ'd at DPC?

PS Side challenges are dead and I might be the only one who uses these new technologies at DPC. Should I really be punished for trying to break some conventions that may be by now very outdated and conservative? SC can change the rules, this was my starting point.

PS2 I forgot to add that photo-scans are not "artwork" but virtual representation of reality. People can be animated in 3D and you could take photos of them running, jumping etc. You could also pose them in 3D and take a virtual photo. To me that virtual photo would be an artwork created by you.


You asked if you should be 'punished' for this photo. Well, yes. It is not your component photographs, it is someone else's.

You of all people know not to add other people's artwork or photos. Pushing the boundaries, yes, awesome photo, yes, is it technically fabulous, yes. Is it illegal, Yes.

So you could be the 1st person to do this type of thing on here as you said. You want the SC to change just for you. Well, maybe if you set out a tutorial or how did they do that, other people would get as enthusiastic as you are about it all. And it could be re-looked in the future for this type of work and have a challenge, but as you said, you are probably the only one doing it, so sort of a sad challenge if there is only one entry.

I would be interested in reading how this is done.
07/22/2022 11:08:16 AM · #15
Originally posted by JulietNN:

.. I would be interested in reading how this is done.

I explained as best as I could, I guess I am not good with words.
07/22/2022 11:11:04 AM · #16
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

.. I would be interested in reading how this is done.

I explained as best as I could, I guess I am not good with words.


Needs pictures!!!
07/22/2022 11:17:42 AM · #17
Originally posted by MargaretNet:


I keep on thinking about better examples, say you were invited to a movie set and are allowed to take photos, everything around you was designed by other people, would your shots be DQ'd at DPC?

PS Side challenges are dead and I might be the only one who uses these new technologies at DPC. Should I really be punished for trying to break some conventions that may be by now very outdated and conservative? SC can change the rules, this was my starting point.


It's not really an accurate comparison. We take photos in the street all the time - everything in it was created by another person. The difference is what the artwork rule describes: that we are not attempting to pass it off as something we took.

Further in this comparison, if one is allowed on a movie set, it is with approval, and for the express purpose of capturing life on the set. And the resulting images fulfill that. The images are not used to create artwork from the previously created objects in the images.

There really is no accurate real life comparison, as this is breaking new boundaries. As a result, the transition process can be slow and messy. However, Christophe introduced 3D modeling into DPC several years ago, but managed to create using his own raw materials.

Re side challenges, I would sign up for your 3D side challenge. I'm intrigued by the process and the possibilities. It would also give you a chance to create to your heart's content, without any boundaries. And I would for sure follow that.
07/22/2022 11:18:15 AM · #18
Originally posted by JulietNN:

Originally posted by MargaretNet:

Originally posted by JulietNN:

.. I would be interested in reading how this is done.

I explained as best as I could, I guess I am not good with words.


Needs pictures!!!


This would be the sort of convo in a 3D side challenge!
07/22/2022 11:19:48 AM · #19
I think the main thing I am asking for is to change the Extended Editing ruleset and make it truly Extended and Free. There are very few challenges in this ruleset so why not make them all Archival and hence less work for the SC reading EXIFs, and allow percentage of own input rather than 100%. These days you can put an image into Google and check if it already exists so someone using other people work could be easily spotted.

It would be really nice if we could do that. Otherwise I will have to revisit 1x as they look at the final output of the work, not ruleset. I will have to try that, I know it is not easy to get images accepted at 1x but I think I will try. I have a lot of ideas involving my favorites - fog and light :)
07/22/2022 11:22:23 AM · #20
Originally posted by tanguera:

.. Christophe introduced 3D modeling into DPC several years ago, but managed to create using his own raw materials...

Christophe is a genius, I am a mere mortal, what took him 20 hours would take me 200.
07/22/2022 12:14:46 PM · #21
It's all about "Does this qualify as *photography*?" Our extended rules were designed to allow people to do amazing things with photographs. There is a lot of discussion that needs to take place amongst SC and in a forum thread we will start soon as to whether the community as a whole wants to expand its horizons to include, basically, virtual-reality artworks not made with cameras.

Margaret, we understand your frustration, and as Paul pointed out at the beginning we commend you for pushing the envelope so far we had to react. This was bound to happen sooner or later. But as the rules are currently written your image is not "legal" and the DQ will stand. Going forward you need to bear this in mind when you create these images; SOME significant portion of the work needs to be photographically based, okay?

We perhaps should ask the community for their thoughts on creating a whole new category of rules for virtual reality/3D modeling/CGI types of images, but that needs to be discussed amongst SC and Admin first.
07/22/2022 12:28:22 PM · #22
My Dreams have been crushed ;) I have no desire to be restricted, I just paid subscription on 1x and will spend some time there. See you later!! :)
07/22/2022 12:37:29 PM · #23
Originally posted by MargaretNet:

My Dreams have been crushed ;) I have no desire to be restricted, I just paid subscription on 1x and will spend some time there. See you later!! :)


Bye?

I find it ironic that you would like the rules to change just for you. I think it is ironic that you are always saying we need more people to tutorials or side challenges and give out meaningful help and that people should step up to the plate to encourage new members with the knowledge that they only know, but then you don't want to do that. Can't have it both ways mate.

I am sure 1X will love your contributions.
07/22/2022 12:52:44 PM · #24
https://1x.com/photo/34965
07/22/2022 02:11:29 PM · #25
This debate seems to be a part of a larger societal paradigm shift as the metaverse is asserting itself more and more broadly and loudly. People are setting up businesses, building theme parks, buying and selling "virtual real estate" for millions of not-so-virtual dollars. So apparently it's time for the "virtual photography" to crop up as well. I don't have a problem with that if that's what people want to do with their time. My only modest desire is that we don't mix our real and virtual lives too much. It would be weird if virtual houses were sold alongside real ones, wouldn't it? Anyhow, I still would love for DPC to remain in the realm of "real photography" where taking photos of a real world with a real camera is involved. Or am I just too old and cranky?
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