Selling photos to a magazine - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

06/10/2014 03:05:53 AM · #1

Hi guys.
I took some photos of a semi pro athlete recently, promo shots of them in various athletic poses.
The shoot was paid for by one of the companies that sponsor the athlete.
The licence agreement I have with that company is they can use the the images for their own promotion purposes, but cannot distribute them to others. ( this may sound generous or lenient, but it's for a family member, and I also have a small ownership percentage of that company)

A magazine " the box magazine " has approached the sponsor company who paid for the shoot to use these images to do a storey on the athletes.

My questions are should the magazine be paying for these images, as the sponsor gets promotion out of this too ( I think yes the mag should be paying) and does any one know of a formulae to work out a fair way to calculate how much they should be paying?

Thanks so much for any advice you can give.
John.

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

06/10/2014 01:37:57 PM · #2

yes, they should be paying. or they should send their own photographer out to shoot ;-)

there are a number of ways to deal with this. first, there are a number of stock photo calculators on the web that you can use to get a target number. rates typically depend on photo size & placement, the type of publication, and its circulation and distribution area. the range could be anywhere from $50 to $500 to $5000...it all depends.

next, contact the magazine and ask them how much they normally pay for photos. if they say nothing, tell them "good luck with that" and don't have anything else to do with them. screw the hosebags that want photos for free. ask the person you're talking to if they're working for free and if they aren't ask them why should you?

if they have a number larger than the one you came up with, take it. if it's lower, tell them you were thinking more and see if you can find something agreeable.

it can be fun and frustrating, but if you stick to your guns, you can actually make a few bucks. good luck!

06/11/2014 05:58:07 PM · #3

Hi skip

Thanks for your reply, I found it really helpful.

I looked up a few of the stock calculators, and while I was missing some of the key information, it gave me a ball park figure. I'm now waiting for the contact details for the person at the magazine I'll be dealing with.

I'll follow your advice and ask what they normally pay for photos, hopefully get them to show their cards first, then accept or negotiate from there. Either way, I've got a bit of confidence now that I'm on the right path, so thanks again for that.

I'll post again here when there's some progress.
Cheers

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

10/01/2014 12:55:55 AM · #4

Hi Skip and everyone.

There has been a bit of progress in this whole scenario, and i thought i'd update this thread.

The magazine emailed me back saying, "hey, we like you photos, we would love to use them in our magazine. Please send thru the high res unwatermarked files and sign this form"
(the form said I'm signing over all usage rights to the magazine, for nil compinsation)

I queried this, and then the general manager emailed back -
We are definitely not asking you to sign over copyright. Our in house photographer always retains full ownership and copyright and simply provides us with a licence to use and publish his image/s in relation to the article we are printing.
I�m more than happy to discuss any aspect of this with you so that everyone wins.

My reply -
Like your in-house photographer, I too would licence my photos to your magazine to publish. Im assuming your in-house photographer is not expected to work for free, I also would require a fee to reproduce my work. The fee for licensing the photos will depend on normal factors which I�m sure your aware of - how many photos you need, how you intend on reproducing them and the period you intend to use them.
Im happy to discuss this further if you wish.

His latest Reply - (bit longer)
Thanks for your email. You�re correct our in-house photographer is commissioned to do shoots for us but he is never commissioned to do a simple �profile� shot and I�m certainly not saying your work is �simple� in any way. Your shots are certainly of the quality needed for publishing as many images that we receive are not. For a profile, we�d usually request approx. 3 shots maximum (usually from the athlete themselves) and these are used within the print mag and the replicated digital iteration. We may only use one or two depending on how the design is laid out and this is all we require consent from you to do, if you�re still interested?
Certainly if we commission a shoot, photographers who we�ve dealt with previously, get first consideration. This is usually because they are happy to provide their shots for profiles and the like, free of charge simply for the exposure and credability that being in a published national magazine brings. We also usually provide our photographic contributors with a photo credit within the pages of the mag and in the masthead of the issue they are contributing to. We have 5 magazines and work with over 100 photographers over the course of a year.
Either way, if we are unable to use any of the shots you�ve already sent through, we�ll ask if ATHELETE X has any others that are suitable to use with his profile. However if there are none available he may miss out on his feature which will be unfortunate but please let us know what is best for you and we can go from there.

Now I'm not quite sure how to progress with this. I know the athlete in question, and don't want him to miss out on this profile. its a big deal for him, and could help his career. Do you think everyone is giving this magazine free content on the hope of being given paid work in the future? Doesn't seem right to me, and I'm tempted to stick to my guns and get some cash here and now on this deal, not give them away for free and home for an unlikely pay day in the future.

Skip, any thoughts or advice?

tanguera

Nikon D750

10/01/2014 03:54:43 AM · #5

Wow, that is really low. It's emotional blackmail, and putting the responsibility of this athlete's future in your lap. I'm not sure how you should proceed, but I'm tempted to tell you to stick to your guns. A national magazine featuring photos of athletes should have a budget for those photos, regardless of who takes them.

Enlightened

Nikon D7100

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

10/01/2014 08:13:35 AM · #6

Stick to your guns with this. I would reply with the price you want and don't leave an opening for a counter offer. You have to take the friend portion out of the equation. Any athlete will have a career or not based on ability not a photo in a magazine. The company has said they pay if they had to commission a photographer to do a shoot so they have a budget so tap into it.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

10/01/2014 08:32:00 AM · #7

Depends how much you like this family member

Mike

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Tamron SP 24-70mm f/2.8 Di VC USD Canon Mount

10/01/2014 11:38:09 AM · #8

its all about value.

in this case if someone doesn't see the value of the exposure in the magazine may offer then that person needs to get paid, in this case that's you. if the athlete wants the exposure he should pay you for your time and the rights to the images and then proceed without you, if the athlete doesn't wish to pay for exposure than you both move on and the magazine can find some other person to exploit.

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/01/2014 10:27:32 PM · #9

damned if you do, damned if you don't. these people have no conscious. they really don't care.

at this point you have only two options: give it away, or tell them no.

if you give it away, it will be up to you to find a way to exploit it in order to make it worth your while. you may or may not be able to generate anything of value from it. maybe at least get 2-3 free copies of the magazine.

if you say no, make sure your friend knows that you said no, why you said no, and that he does not have permission to give the magazine any of the photos you took. tell him how much the magazine is screwing you out of. (some friends of mine have a band; when a newspaper wanted a photo of the band for a story, my friends asked me how much to use the photo because they knew the paper wasn't going to pay.)

once you decide what to do, just move on and don't look back. there are plenty more photos to be made.

10/02/2014 06:36:12 AM · #10

Hi guys. Thanks for the responses. I'm out of the office right now, so can't write a proper reply. (I'm bad at typing on my phone) but I'll copy paste today's , final email s

Me to them

Thanks for the Email.

Its good to hear from a large publisher like yourself that my work is up to the high standard you require. I put conferable time and effort into these images, its always good to get some positive feedback. Im still very interested in you using these images in your magazine, in the end, thats what my whole business is built around.

The fee for licensing these images is only NZD$150.00 per image. That will include both the print and digital version of your magazine. Attached is my invoice (with payment details) and a licence terms to use the image.

Ive already sent thru a copy sheet of all my photos with athlete x .Please just select the images you would like from that, send me the numbers, and I can send you thru the High res unwatermarked photos.

As for future work, If you need any photos taken of athletes or events in New Zealand in the future, please feel free to contact me anytime.

Attached to this email is the licence agreement and invoice.

Message edited by author 2014-10-02 06:37:37.

Canon EF 300mm f/2.8L IS USM

10/02/2014 06:46:45 AM · #11

Unfortunately we don�t have a budget to use your images for a �profile� as already stated below. As also mentioned in the previous email, we�ll commission shoots for features only and these will be offered to photographers who we have dealt with previously and who have supplied their images FOC for profiles etc. Once budget becomes available, obviously the photographers that have been with us from the beginning and who have supported us through the start up phase, will receive first consideration as you�d expect.

For your reference, the market rates are no more than $50 per shot for regularly published photographic contributors, so even if budget was on offer, so you might need to revise your rates accordingly.

Skip

Canon EOS-1D X

10/02/2014 07:29:45 AM · #12

Originally posted by theduke-nz:

these guys aren't even worth wasting time with. they only hire those they've been able to screw from the beginning, and then they don't pay market rates. total bs to pay $50/image in a print magazine.

move on, don't look back. not worth it.

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM

10/02/2014 04:42:56 PM · #13

Hey guys

Thanks so much for the feedback, opinions and information. As someone only in business for a year, it can be a little intimidating working with publishers, i just assume they are all large, experienced and speak the truth.

So to put this email exchange up here and get experienced photographers on my side of the fence putting out opinions, it really is quite empowering.

So thanks you very much for your input, especially you skip. It has ben a great help.

I have now cut my losses with these people. And to be honest, i feel GOOD about it. I don't feel like I've missed on a sale or stuffed up a negotiation by being too firm, I feel good like I've stood up for my self, my rights and my intellectual property, and didn't cave in to a bully and give away my work for free.

Maybe that means i'll never be a good business man, haha. personal satisfaction over money and i feel good, probably not how successful businesses are run,

anyway, thanks again guys.

John

Lydia

Canon EOS-6D

10/02/2014 08:57:49 PM · #14

I am just now seeing this thread.

I agree. They want a bargain and that's not a crime, but wanting people to work for free so they can profit from it sounds like slavery to me... willing slavery (if you'd agreed) but... slavery nonetheless.

Good for you for sticking to your position.

Techo