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09/01/2004 06:12:13 AM · #1 |
I started the "understanding framing" thread when the challenge began, cause it wasn't too obvoiuse from the challenge details, if the main point should be the frame or it's background.
Then I started voting, and I gave higher votes to those who focused on the frame more then on the background. Cause that's what the challenge was all about.
But then, from the comments of my photo I got a lot of "great photo but you should have given focus to the background".
So I understand that I'm loosing points over that.
Could any one PLEASE clear this issue out?
Should I vote higher for those who focused on the frame or those who focused on the background?
Thanks!
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09/01/2004 06:17:14 AM · #2 |
There is no 'should', I fear - you must vote as you see fit. The difficulty, for me, is that the wording of the challenge suggests the frame should be the subject, but the natural use of the technique photographically is that the frame should, well, frame your subject, rather than be your subject.
Vote consistently with whatever you decide, and you will be making a valuable contribution.
Ed
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09/01/2004 06:18:33 AM · #3 |
Vote on how the image affects you, with due consideration to if it has a foreground element 'framing' what is in the background (in focus or not, doesn't matter to the challenge -- just to aesthetics).
David
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09/01/2004 06:38:57 AM · #4 |
I've always felt a frame should be an understated complement to a subject. For example, when you frame a painting, the frame should not attract more attention than the subject or artwork.
I see this challenge in a similar light.
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09/01/2004 06:40:36 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by e301:
There is no 'should', I fear - you must vote as you see fit. The difficulty, for me, is that the wording of the challenge suggests the frame should be the subject, but the natural use of the technique photographically is that the frame should, well, frame your subject, rather than be your subject.
Vote consistently with whatever you decide, and you will be making a valuable contribution. |
I don't think anyone could put it better. |
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09/01/2004 09:39:59 AM · #6 |
Also remember that it is a frame, not a border. One doesn't need to have the entire inner-image surrounded by the frame, just a forground element.
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09/01/2004 09:51:50 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by e301:
There is no 'should', I fear - you must vote as you see fit. The difficulty, for me, is that the wording of the challenge suggests the frame should be the subject, but the natural use of the technique photographically is that the frame should, well, frame your subject, rather than be your subject.
Vote consistently with whatever you decide, and you will be making a valuable contribution.
Ed |
I agree with you, in principle...I just don't understand why the people who write the challenge always have to be so specific that it immediately causes many of the entries to 'not meet' the challenge. The same thing happened with miniature.
Why can't the challenge be written in a way that is concise without being so specific as to say "the subject must frame whatever is in the background". Am I the only one that's consistently frustrated with the wording of the challenges?
If the challenge wording was strictly adhered to in this case, most of the photographs would not meet the challenge. This presents a problem which needs to be addressed...
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 09:52:43. |
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09/01/2004 10:04:58 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
If the challenge wording was strictly adhered to in this case, most of the photographs would not meet the challenge. This presents a problem which needs to be addressed... |
As gatorguy stated so well in the previous thread on this topic:
Originally posted by gatorguy:
I think the problem with voting comes from quite the opposite... People interpreting too loosely the intent of the challenge. Your interpretation fits a challenge that is "take a picture of something that is framed" Quite different. |
IMHO, the details are sometimes worded so as to actually be a challenge, so that you have to go out and find a picture that does meet the challenge instead of just submitting any old picture. To me, the problem is that people do interpret the challenge theme too loosely, and do submit any old picture. That is why when the challenge subject matter is obviously restrictive, the number of entries is lower and the quality of the pictures is (typically) higher.
I haven't gone through all the images yet, but I looked at some of the submissions to framing, and there are some that clearly "do not meet the challenge"; some don't even have a "foreground object" at all! That will be taken into account when I vote (as the rules say it should be).
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:12:43.
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09/01/2004 10:11:44 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
If the challenge wording was strictly adhered to in this case, most of the photographs would not meet the challenge. This presents a problem which needs to be addressed... |
As gatorguy stated so well in the previous thread on this topic:
Originally posted by gatorguy:
I think the problem with voting comes from quite the opposite... People interpreting too loosely the intent of the challenge. Your interpretation fits a challenge that is "take a picture of something that is framed" Quite different. |
IMHO, the details are sometimes worded so as to actually be a challenge, so that you have to go out and find a picture that does meet the challenge instead of just submitting any old picture. To me, the problem is that people do interpret the challenge theme too loosely, and do submit any old picture. That is why when the challenge subject matter is obviously restrictive, the number of entries is low and the quality of the pictures is (typically) higher. |
Good point...the problem is that it's not working...when the majority of photograph takers and voters decide to loosely interpret the challenge, the integrity of the strict challenge guidelines goes out the window. I guess my suggestion is that the site council or whoever writes these things should recognize this fact and react appropriately.
If I busted my butt finding a beautiful subject which also frames a nice background it does me no good because somebody took a picture of a cute kid through a blurry window frame...
Edit: It needs to be addressed...either there should be a recognition that the wording of the challenges is intentionally difficult and should be adhered to OR we change the way that challenges are written.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:13:26. |
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09/01/2004 10:18:20 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I guess my suggestion is that the site council or whoever writes these things should recognize this fact and react appropriately. |
Most challenges (and details) come from the Challenge Suggestions forum. If you don't like a suggestion somebody makes or the way it is worded, you should say so. But realize that some people intentionally post restrictive challenges so as to prevent them from all becoming "free studies".
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
If I busted my butt finding a beautiful subject which also frames a nice background it does me no good because somebody took a picture of a cute kid through a blurry window frame... |
I don't see the distinction here. Both have a foreground element that frame something else. Both meet the challenge. Voters will decide which photograph they like better. That is much different than a picture of something in the foreground that is framed by a background element, which does not meet this challenge IMHO.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:20:51.
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09/01/2004 10:20:21 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I guess my suggestion is that the site council or whoever writes these things should recognize this fact and react appropriately. |
Most challenges (and details) come from the Challenge Suggestions forum.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
If I busted my butt finding a beautiful subject which also frames a nice background it does me no good because somebody took a picture of a cute kid through a blurry window frame... |
I don't see the distinction here. Both have a foreground element that frame something else. Both meet the challenge. Voters will decide which photograph they like better. That is much different than a picture of a foreground element that is framed by a background element, which does not meet this challenge IMHO. |
Eddyg, according to the challenge, the subject is supposed to be the frame...not what's behind it.
That's my complaint, that the wording forces everyone to take a specific type of picture in a specific way.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:21:08. |
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09/01/2004 10:20:58 AM · #12 |
It says a foreground subject in the challenge, framing the rest, so the frame should really be the subject?
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:21:12.
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09/01/2004 10:22:01 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Konador:
It says a foreground subject in the challenge, framing the rest, so the frame should really be the subject? |
Exactly...but almost nobody (probably myself included) will vote that way since most of the photographs don't fit this strict wording of the challenge.
Thus my complaint about challenge wording.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:22:39. |
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09/01/2004 10:25:34 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
according to the challenge, the subject is supposed to be the frame...not what's behind it. |
I don't intrepret it that way at all. It says:
Capture an image where the foreground subject frames the rest of the image.
As long as there is a foreground subject/object/thing/whatever framing the rest of the photo, it meets the challenge. That means there is something, which is obviously in front of something else, acting as a frame. Seems very clear to me. It doesn't say anything about the framing object itself having to be the "focal point" of the photograph.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:27:38.
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09/01/2004 10:33:44 AM · #15 |
"forground subject"...By definition, I've always understood the subject to be the 'focal point'.
The subject is 'what your picture is about'.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:35:26. |
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09/01/2004 10:36:59 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
It doesn't say anything about the framing object itself having to be the "focal point" of the photograph. |
Well, it doesn't say anything about the framing object itself. But it clearly specifies FOREGROUND and BACKGROUND. So IMHO this means:
1. The picture should have different depth levels. The frame and the background can not be in the same level.
2. The frame should be the subject. The subject is not always the "focal point" but it also can not be too blury to recognize.
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09/01/2004 10:37:38 AM · #17 |
If it said "Capture an image where the subject frames the rest of the image", I would agree with your interpretation. But because it specifies "foreground subject", it implies that there is also to be a "background subject" ("the rest of the image"), which is framed.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:38:34.
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09/01/2004 10:39:14 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
As long as there is a foreground subject/object/thing/whatever framing the rest of the photo, it meets the challenge. That means there is something, which is obviously in front of something else, acting as a frame. Seems very clear to me. It doesn't say anything about the framing object itself having to be the "focal point" of the photograph. |
But that means that the challenge wording is too loose, because under a tight definition, the "Subject" of a picture should be the main focal point, I believe, so blurry window frames would not meet the challenge, as they are not a subject, merely a foreground element. Under a loose interpretation, a blurry window frame with a kitten framed in it is just as good as a beautiful gothic castle window with a cloud somewhere in the distance seen through it.
What we need to know is: Should the point of the picture be the frame, or what's IN the frame, or either/or? If it's either/or, then it's a 'Free Study With Frame' instead of a 'Framing' challenge...
Gee,I'm so confused now.:/
(EDIT: took me 5 or 10 mins to type this and work, so some of my confusion's cleared up.)
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:41:54.
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09/01/2004 10:41:09 AM · #19 |
Why can't everyone enjoy the incredible variety of clever ways people come up with to interpret a subject?
If the challenge was to "Go to a framing shop and take a 'catalog picture' of one of their popular frames" we'd probably force everyone into the same box, and have 400 similar, boring pictures. Sure, we'd be able to really "tell" who used a softbox and tripod, who applied perspective correction, and a variety of other details which would let us "grade" the photographer's technical skill, but I'd rather we concentrate more on developing people's creative faculties. (pun intended)
To me, part of the fun is to see how far people can push the boundaries of interpretation, much like people push the editing rules to improve their photos. I love to see people quit arguing about what constitutes a "valid" interpretation in the forums, and instead apply any such comments directly to the photos themselves.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:42:34. |
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09/01/2004 10:42:53 AM · #20 |
| I'm baffled at how many people didn't have foreground and background objects at all. I can accept either the frame or the framed bit being out of focus, or I can accept all of it being in focus and neither bit dominating the other, but for there to not be any foreground/background depth - i.e. everything even or occasionally with the framing in the background - seems completely off topic. Even if the wording was vague on which part should be the main focus, the rest was very clear. |
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09/01/2004 10:43:13 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by computerking:
Should the point of the picture be the frame, or what's IN the frame, or either/or? If it's either/or, then it's a 'Free Study With Frame' instead of a 'Framing' challenge... |
It's none of the above. There is a difference between having something "framed" and having something "framed by a foreground element". The purpose of the challenge was to photograph something that was framed by a foreground object. That is much different than photographing something that is just "framed", since that would mean that anything in background acting as a frame would also be acceptable -- and this challenge specifically requested submitters to submit a photo with a foreground object framing the rest of the photograph.
Message edited by author 2004-09-01 10:46:38.
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09/01/2004 10:44:18 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Why can't everyone enjoy the incredible variety of clever ways people come up with to interpret a subject?
If the challenge was to "Go to a framing shop and take a 'catalog picture' of one of their popular frames" we'd probably force everyone into the same box, and have 400 similar, boring pictures. Sure, we'd be able to really "tell" who used a softbox and tripod, who applied perspective correction, and a variety of other details which would let us "grade" the photographer's technical skill, but I'd rather we concentrate more on developing people's creative faculties. (pun intended)
To me, part of the fun is to see how far people can push the boundaries of interpretation, much like people push the editing rules to improve their photos. I love to see people quit arguing about what constitutes a "valid" interpretation in the forums, and instead apply any such comments directly to the photos themselves. |
I think you're missing the point, though. I wish there were different ways to interpret this challenge but the only way to do this is to ignore the strict wording of the challenge itself.
That's why I think the way the challenges are worded need to be revisited.
Either allow for loose interpretation by staying away from specifics in the wording OR be specific in the challenge and expect people to vote accordingly. |
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09/01/2004 10:44:57 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I love to see people quit arguing about what constitutes a "valid" interpretation in the forums, and instead apply any such comments directly to the photos themselves. |
I tried to stay out of this one, as I don't like arguing, and I don't MEAN to argue. But it's disheartening to grade others' pictures using your interpretation of the rules, THEN see that someone else's interpretation is being applied to your picture, especially if that pushes your picture further down the pipe toward Brown Ribbon.
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09/01/2004 10:46:43 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
It's none of the above. There is a difference between having something "framed" and having something "framed by a foreground element". The purpose of the challenge was to photograph something that was framed by a foreground object. That is much different than photographing something that is just "framed", since that would mean that anything in background acting as a frame would also be permitted -- and this challenge specifically requested submitters to submit a photo with a foreground object framing the rest of the photograph. |
I'm slowly getting it, though I think my picture should actually cover both bases.
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09/01/2004 10:48:14 AM · #25 |
The way I interpreted the challenge was, two objects, one framing the other, whether it be a window frame, hole in a wall, trees, rocks,hands, and so on and on. The main thing is the foreground object should be visible as an object not just a dark shadow area.
Just my thoughts.
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