Photography or Popularity - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

01/13/2003 02:17:39 PM · #1

Is the voting here based on TRUE PHOTOGRAPHY quality and how it applies the challenge, or is it almost all POPULARITY?

I paid for a membership on this site to compete in (what seemed to be) a fair forum to help further my skills as a photographer. I get almost no comments or critiques to tell me how I'm doing.

I have also seen the last 4 Members challenges yield pretty low results for some very good photos the "Meet the Challenge" well, and I'm not talking about my photos!

I've noticed a trend on some members seem to maintain fair high scores for marginal work, and a better photos gets a "Does not meet the challenge" comment. Who really decides if it does not meet the challenge? The site Admins? The Site Council?

Some of the photos deserve the accolades that they are getting. Others don't!

Let's try to get back to the BASICS and make this site what it is supposed to be!

Suggested Rule #1
VOTE ON A PHOTO BASED ONLY ON THE QUALITY, CONTENT AND CHALLENGE VALUES THAT ARE APPROPRIATE FOR THE CURRENT CHALLENGE.

Suggested Rule #2
PROVEN COLLABORATION FOR ANY PHOTO DURING VOTING TO "BOOST" THE SCORE SHOULD RESULT IN THE DISQUALIFICATION OF ALL OF THE INVOLDED MEMBERS PHOTOS FROM THAT CHALLENGE.

That's my $1.25!

I'm a paying customer, and an unhappy one at that!

Konador

Canon EOS-500D Rebel T1i

01/13/2003 02:22:33 PM · #2

This is jsut a comment on the "Meets the Challenge" comment you made.

I feel that there are plenty of other sites that are based purely on the photography side of things, but this site is different.

DP CHALLENGE

The challenge being to take a photo that fits into the weekly theme. That is what makes this site different from a lot of the others out there on the web.

As for who decided what meets the challenge? It is up to each individual voter and their own opinion. The more obvious you make it towards the challenge, the more voters will "get it".

01/13/2003 02:24:48 PM · #3

Originally posted by dltruex:

It is entirely about popularity.

How popular your image is and how easily absorbed and how impactful the image is.

The people that consistently score well are the people who create the most popular images. What is popular ? It is what the voting population on here happen to like. Nobody 'decides' what is popular, other than the fact that it gets the most high votes from the largest amount of people.

If you want 'true photography' or people who 'get' your own personal, ecletic vision, you won't find it by opening your picture up to a popularity contest like dpchallenge. You might find it one day in a gallery owner or art critic, but not in the general public - who are the voters on dpc. If you want to win, go for popular subjects, with popularly accepted standards of composition, popular use of techical features like really large depth of field, sharp focus, bright colours and lots of impact.

Have to admit though, after looking at your pictures, I don't quite get what you are complaining about. You've scored above average when you've entered and finished pretty high. As for the other pictures you mention, people have different ideas about what is good. That's part of the fun of this site - if you can work out the 'lowest common denominator' for good, you'll do well here :)

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 14:35:33.

01/13/2003 02:51:53 PM · #4

Let me clarify the "Popularity" part they way I meant it to be.

The popularity that I refer to is that of the photographer, not the subject of the photo.

It seems that if someone either knows (or suspects) that a photo was composed by a photographer that they are familiar with, (could be anyone) they tend to rate that photo higher then they would have based on the photograph itself.

I like the idea that you can't see who submitted a photo during the voting. I think this keeps the playing field a little more even for newcomers to this sight.

As for the "Sake for Photography", I do have a few of my photos going up for sale in a gallery in LA.

Example from my "Faces of Nature" Series:
//www3.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=593835

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

01/13/2003 03:08:44 PM · #5

All part of the game...this is an intensely subjective contest and it's your job to figure out what will do well. If you think a member is talking a style of photo that's doing well and is recognisable, copy that style. As for collaboration, mathematically it's not going to make much difference as most of the people here are against it, and the few that are won't find many to go along with it. It won't make much difference, and it's out of your hands anyways.

jimmyn4

Canon EOS-7D

01/13/2003 03:14:33 PM · #6

I don't know why you are complaining. You have high votes received average. You also have more than 10 comments a picture. I didn't read all of your comments but you obviously have some talent so at some point you should rank fairly high. Patience young Jedi:)

01/13/2003 03:15:23 PM · #7

My mistake.

I didn't realize that this was www.DPLemmingsChallenge.com

I feel that my ramblings apply to many other photographers.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 15:17:08.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

01/13/2003 03:26:40 PM · #8

Originally posted by dltruex:

Let me clarify the "Popularity" part they way I meant it to be.

The popularity that I refer to is that of the photographer, not the subject of the photo.

I understood what you'd referred to about popularity - I was just explaining that the answer actually lies in popularity of the image, not the photographer. The tendency is that any entry that really stretches the envelope in terms of photographic technique will score badly. Anything that has 'obvious' odd uses of camera technique (say contrary to the Kodak guide to top 10 things to make your pictures better) will tend to do badly as people will pick up on them, etc.

so it is a popularity contest. In much the same way that Britney Spears may not have the most musical talent but has the most popular support, great, popular pictures win here, not the technically most proficient ot excellent. If you want to do well you have to play the game. Complaining about it, while cathartic, will not improve your score. Making up conspiracy theories, while fun, will not improve your score.

Our most successful entrant doesn't share his entries on other forums, or turn up in the chat rooms talking about his pictures every day, yet he consistantly produces top quality, popular, well taken images and wins.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 15:30:33.

jimmyn4

Canon EOS-7D

01/13/2003 03:35:32 PM · #9

Originally posted by dltruex:

My mistake.

I didn't realize that this was www.DPLemmingsChallenge.com

I feel that my ramblings apply to many other photographers.

I'll have to check that site out.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

01/13/2003 03:47:55 PM · #10

Originally posted by jimmyn4:

Originally posted by dltruex:
My mistake.

I didn't realize that this was www.DPLemmingsChallenge.com

I feel that my ramblings apply to many other photographers.

I'll have to check that site out.

Me too.

Onie

Minolta DiMAGE 5

01/13/2003 03:49:24 PM · #11

Just my 2 cents worth. From some of the comments made by the administrators and site council I am suprised. Every one including you has or should have the right to express how they feel, with out any cut throat comments like- "I looked at yours what do you have to complain about" No where does it say in the contract this is about "Playing a Game" Many people here have expressed they would like to do this to learn - learn exactly what? Expressed by some of your responses- Copy other other peoples work? If this is the case it would be really nice to know exactly what we are getting into. I personally don't care to "play any games" I enjoy the opprotunity to take a subject and see what I can do with it, that should be the focus of any challenge.

01/13/2003 03:53:54 PM · #12

Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by jimmyn4:
Originally posted by dltruex:
My mistake.

I didn't realize that this was //www.DPLemmingsChallenge.com

I feel that my ramblings apply to many other photographers.

I'll have to check that site out.

Me too.

I couldn't open the site in mo browser, so I did a DNS query for the site IP it came up with //198.77.14.89/ Is this right?

01/13/2003 04:04:18 PM · #13

There's ample opportunity to try this site out free of charge for as long as you like before joining. Within the framework of a challenge site is a great community of supportive people who will happily provide feedback and support if you do the same. Ranting on and on about a minority of voters and their alleged shady tactics isn't going to win any fans for you. This site is what you make of it. Take from it what you will, give what you can. Don't complain that it's something it's not.

spiderman

01/13/2003 04:22:23 PM · #14

Originally posted by Onie:

Just my 2 cents worth ... Many people here have expressed they would like to do this to learn - learn exactly what? Expressed by some of your responses- Copy other other peoples work? ...

not really

even though you might not get the direct feedback thru constructive criticism that you're looking for, there are some lessons to be learned here

look at the top photos in every challenge and see if you can find any common ground - see anything? yeah, me neither

BUT look at the bottom pics - there's a LOT of common ground there - out-of-focus, blurry, too dark, too light, over-processed (ie over-sharpened, over-saturated, etc), too much clutter, bad background, annoying shadows/lighting, plain ol' uninteresting subjects, blah blah blah blah blah PLUS the ever-popular "what-does-this-have-to-do-with-the-challenge?"

learn NOT to try to jump immediately into a blue-ribbon photo

learn instead to eliminate the things that drag an entry towards the lesser end of the scale

Onie

Minolta DiMAGE 5

01/13/2003 04:24:26 PM · #15

This is exactly the type of response I was referring to- Why is it necessary to be nasty to get your point across? I have seen two very good photographers on this site quit. No one here is trying to gain "more votes" or become "more popular" by expressing how they feel.

Originally posted by jimmythefish:

01/13/2003 04:31:09 PM · #16

Originally posted by Onie:

You can read 'what do you have to complain about' as a 'cut throat' comment, or you can read it is 'I don't understand what you are asking - care to try and explain it again'. It seemed from the original post that the poster was really unhappy about something - I still don't actually understand what though. I can read between the lines and get the impression that pictures that they think should be doing well are not doing well but I'm not certain about that.

But the reality is that this is about popularity - of the photograph. People vote on it, so it is immediately obvious that the most popular pictures will win. If you want to do well, you have to understand what the bad pictures have in common - and invariably it is going out side the 'norm' of typically accepted notions of what a 'good' photograph is. The fact that most 'art' photography is also well into the area of 'out side the norm' means that those who try to enter what might be considered more artistic, boundary challenging pictures on dpchallenge will often find that their scores reflect their non-conformity.

If you want to do well here, you have to accept the fact that traditional, 'normal' pictures will do well. Railing against the injustice of it, while a common forum topic, doesn't change it. The general advice of 'learn from that and copy someone who is doing well' is good advice to do well on here - it isn't mean't to be advice on doing great photography in general. This is just one site - which has a predeliction for more traditional photographic images, and those that do well also have high impact - mainly due to the short periods of time that is given to voting on them. It is what it is.

01/13/2003 04:33:00 PM · #17

I don't think I'm being nasty, Onie, I think you're being unrealistic. This site isn't required to be everything to everyone. You're not going to change things by appealing to the group to be more sensible in the voting...the sooner you realise that it's about recognising what the audience wants and giving it to them, the better. You can display any photo you wish, for whatever reason you wish. These rants address teh inherent dichotomy of this site - art and competiton. Why complain about low votes and also complain about not being able to express yourself artistically? Don't you see the inherent contradiction in that? There's room to learn about photography here. There are also other sites. If this one doesn't fit, why not move on? Nobody' sholding a gun to your head. Take the advice in your signature...go big or go home.

01/13/2003 04:34:08 PM · #18

Originally posted by Onie:

Just a thought - textual communication on the 'net is often a cause of gross misunderstandings, as you can't hear how it was said, or see if the person was looking happy when they wrote it, or really wound up and ranting. Often if you look for unfriendly comments, you'll find it even when no malice was intended.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

01/13/2003 04:35:47 PM · #19

Food for thought:

"DPChallenge was created in January 2002 by two friends, Drew Ungvarsky (drewmedia) and Langdon Oliver (langdon). The original idea behind the site was for it to be a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week."

Who wrote this quote?

ganders

Canon EOS-40D

01/13/2003 04:39:28 PM · #20

Originally posted by dltruex:

I've noticed a trend on some members seem to maintain fair high scores for marginal work, and a better photos gets a "Does not meet the challenge" comment. Who really decides if it does not meet the challenge? The site Admins? The Site Council?

Well, to answer the second part, the voters decide what "does not meet the challenge" by marking down things that they feel don't. I'll freely admit that I knock points off for failing to meet the challenge - there are two sides to taking a photograph, the technical aspects and the artistic ones.

This weeks challenge is 'Road Signs'. If somebody submits a technically perfect picture of their dog (and let's face it, somebody probably will) I will happily give it a 1. After all, if somebody commissioned you to take a picture of their dog and you went back with a fantastic picture of a stop sign, they probably would say "err, this is not my dog" and wouldn't pay you!

Onie

Minolta DiMAGE 5

01/13/2003 04:41:25 PM · #21

I am not asking for anything-don't you read! You are being nasty by what you are saying but that is Okay... If you must do that to justify yourself then go ahead.... I certainly will go big.... I am simply saying people should be allowed to "have a say" "rant" without the snide cut throat comments.

Originally posted by jimmythefish:

Sigma 15mm f/2.8 EX Diagonal Fisheye for Nikon

01/13/2003 04:48:59 PM · #22

And I'm within my rights to respond to the rant. Where am I being nasty? I don't see it.

muckpond

Nikon D200

01/13/2003 04:50:39 PM · #23

Originally posted by dltruex:

Who cares? It really has nothing to do with what you're saying. Whatever the site was ORIGINALLY intended to be is relatively ancient history, and dpchallenge has evolved.

I've learned a million things from this site -- it's really the only photo site I hang out, and it's made me a much better photographer. If you don't see how it can help, or if you come into it with a "What are these idiots thinking? That was a GREAT photograph!" then you're probably in the wrong place.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 16:54:35.

01/13/2003 04:53:18 PM · #24

In respect to the "scoring of a photo" I have adopted a method that basically goes as follows:

Every photo starts with a "10"
If I feel the photo doesn't meet the challenge -5
If I find the content not to my liking, but the photo is good -2

Areas that need improvement:
Sharpness and Clarity -1
Depth of Field -1
Alignment -1
Colour quality -1

If I like the photo and I don't see any room for improvement -0

So, if the photo doesn't meet the challenge it automatically gets a lower score that most that do meet the challenge. Any photo that I feel "Meets the challenge" can possibly get a 10 (depending on any needed improvements that I may see).

Take with a grain of salt, but we should have some way to represent voting standards.

Message edited by author 2003-01-13 16:54:14.