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02/29/2012 03:22:02 PM · #1 |
Over in a neighbor thread there's a thriving rant going that has devolved from birth control to the moral aspects of abortion, and at what point exactly "personhood" begins. Mention has been made of the irony inherent in that "liberals", stereotypically, tend to be pro-abortion and anti-capital punishment, whilst "conservatives, equally stereotypically, tend to the opposite positions.
In the midst of that matrix, as medicine has worked its wonders prolonging the lives of us all, the issue of voluntary euthanasia is wortyh discussing.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... where do we all stand on voluntary euthanasia of the elderly and terminally ill? Or do we need another thread for that?
R. |
Yes, we need another thread? A friend of mine (ER Doc, photojournalist) has written a book on the subject: A Chosen Death: The Dying Confront Assisted Suicide (not a direct link -- click on the button to the left) ... |
R.
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02/29/2012 03:32:40 PM · #2 |
| I think it's a little silly to make suicide a crime. What are they going to do, lock up your corpse? On another note, I do believe assisted suicide should be legal for those who need a little help with it. Yes, I'm pro choice but on the fence on capital punishment unless there is no measure of doubt (a non coerced confession or caught in the act type thing). |
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02/29/2012 03:49:27 PM · #3 |
I'm not sure the argument is going to get too heated because I usually wind up arguing the position of the social conservative since I'm to the right of most of the far-left participants. I can't get too worked up about voluntary suicide. I do live in one of the few states with physician assisted suicide and just read two days ago it has been used 900 times since passage (I think between 5 and 10 years ago).
Personhood does carry a right to life, but it seems all rights can be voluntarily rejected. |
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02/29/2012 03:52:41 PM · #4 |
| I have a growing list of persons who I think need suicide assistance, so clearly I am in favor of it. |
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02/29/2012 04:00:24 PM · #5 |
| In the past 24 hours, my wife's mother died and an elderly neighbor died. Makes this an important topic to me. Both had Living Wills directing medical personnel to DNR. Since both had lost nearly all the quality of life they had enjoyed most of their lives, the Living Will is a rational decision. So, for the sake of the next generation, I'll do the same Living Will thing. |
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02/29/2012 04:17:46 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
In the past 24 hours, my wife's mother died and an elderly neighbor died. Makes this an important topic to me. Both had Living Wills directing medical personnel to DNR. Since both had lost nearly all the quality of life they had enjoyed most of their lives, the Living Will is a rational decision. So, for the sake of the next generation, I'll do the same Living Will thing. |
I'm sorry to hear that, Richard. My condolences to the both of you.
R.
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02/29/2012 04:32:21 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by hahn23:
In the past 24 hours, my wife's mother died and an elderly neighbor died. Makes this an important topic to me. Both had Living Wills directing medical personnel to DNR. Since both had lost nearly all the quality of life they had enjoyed most of their lives, the Living Will is a rational decision. So, for the sake of the next generation, I'll do the same Living Will thing. |
I'm sorry to hear that, Richard. My condolences to the both of you.
R. |
My condolences as well. |
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02/29/2012 04:37:00 PM · #8 |
Thanks,  Bear_Music and  Kelli. I didn't mean to derail the thread. Sorry. Please continue. |
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02/29/2012 05:31:04 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I have a growing list of persons who I think need suicide assistance, so clearly I am in favor of it. |
So do I! Someone can assist them with suicide, I wouldn't shed a tear.
On a more serious note, I have actually written papers about this very subject matter and done a lot of research in the past few years (for school, of course).
I think it's an interesting topic, and while I am anti-abortion (except under CERTAIN circumstance), I am pro-assisted suicide and capital punishment. I think that if someone is ready to go, they why force them to live? Just like Kelli said, it's silly to make suicide a crime.
That being said, there are some circumstances when assisted suicide should not be allowed. But there is a fine line on what is rational, and what is inherently wrong.
For example... someone who is dying of a terminal disease, is it really necessary to force them to live by taking 100+ pills a day, putting a feeding tube down their throat, a breathing tube, having them live out their last days/weeks/months in a hospital bed?
But, what if someone just wants to die? What if someone was having a bad month, their spouse left them, they got fired from their job, they lost their house, their car got repossessed. The only thing that THAT time they wanted was to die (a rash decision). Should we assist them?
Perhaps a therapist could help them.
So we have to be able to determine when it is right and wrong. But... that begs the question... "when does the government STOP living our lives for us".
Hmmmm... could be an interesting debate.
Message edited by author 2012-02-29 17:32:27.
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02/29/2012 05:53:30 PM · #10 |
| Here's the thing. Someone just having a bad day/week/month or even year won't need any help if they decide they can't live another day. There is no consequence, other than being dead, for someone who commits suicide. Now there are people without "terminal" illnesses who still have no quality of life due to illness that while it won't kill them, makes life unbearable. They do usually require assistance if they decide that they are done with living. Most of these people are of sound mind, just not body. I have an aunt, my mothers sister, in this situation. She has a very severe form of RA that she got as a child. She had complete hip replacements done at age 13 (very rare that many years ago). She spent her entire high school experience in a hospital setting called Seashore House in Atlantic City. They would take her out for walks on the boardwalk in a hospital bed. She's now in her 60's completely bed bound, very deformed, unable to do most anything for herself and on so many pain meds they need to keep a chart. She can't even wipe her own butt. She has a very poor quality of life. And financially, she is a complete disaster. Our fine Republican governor decided that they needed a cut in benefits, so that after they pay their rent they have a whole $25 left a month to cover their other bills. Her husband can't work because she needs 24/7 care. Her mind is fully functional though, and she's often talked of suicide. The thing is she couldn't do it alone, and is fearful that her husband would wind up in jail if she ever did do it. While I would miss her very much, I would understand her choice. Until you actually know someone in this type of situation, it can be hard to wrap your mind around. |
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02/29/2012 06:23:21 PM · #11 |
Trust me, I have had my fair share of people in this situation.. but unless it's regulated, like everything else, there will be people who ask to be assisted who don't necessarily need it.
If we regulate it to disease and illness, what would the criteria be? Who decides if it just isn't worth living? What if the doctor(s) feel that it's unnecessary? who would be right, the patient or doctor?
Then what about those who are ill and have a mental handicap? Would they have say, or would it be argued that they are not of sound mind?
Those are issues that would have to be addressed
Message edited by author 2012-02-29 18:24:06.
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02/29/2012 06:31:01 PM · #12 |
Just for the sake of argument, why should the decision belong to ANYBODY but the person who's contemplating ending his/her life? Why should the state, or anybody else, be involved in this decision at all? Why should the state be able to say "YOU qualify, but you over there? You're not sick enough!"? Or whatever? What could be more personal, more unique to the individual, than deciding whether to go on living or not? On what grounds does the state attempt to control this final, ultimate act of selfhood?
R.
Message edited by author 2012-02-29 18:32:54.
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02/29/2012 07:27:43 PM · #13 |
| If I understand some of the dilemma correctly, I would say some of the concern is about involving doctors. While it is under the auspices of "helping" the patient (let's say helping them escape chronic, unbearable pain), it also seems to be against the Hippocratic oath of, "First, do no harm." Plus, there may be some moral argument if a doctor felt compelled to assist when they had a moral objection (probably a theoretical argument only). Finally there may be the practical argument of realizing doctors get paid for what they do and could there be a conflict of interest (like everything in medicine) that would cost a patient their life? |
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02/29/2012 07:51:18 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
If I understand some of the dilemma correctly, I would say some of the concern is about involving doctors. While it is under the auspices of "helping" the patient (let's say helping them escape chronic, unbearable pain), it also seems to be against the Hippocratic oath of, "First, do no harm." Plus, there may be some moral argument if a doctor felt compelled to assist when they had a moral objection (probably a theoretical argument only). Finally there may be the practical argument of realizing doctors get paid for what they do and could there be a conflict of interest (like everything in medicine) that would cost a patient their life? |
I think some (not all) doctors wouldn't have a problem with it. How many doctors give morphine to the point to death on a regular basis because they think it's best if the patient were to just die? Here's another true life story for you... Years ago my grandfather was in and out of this one hospital because it was closest to where he lived. Every time he went in they'd say he had TB and put him in isolation. He didn't have TB. He had issue after issue with his lungs. One time he went in and ended up on life support. The doctor tried fervently to get my grandmother to disconnect him. He gave her argument after argument for doing this. To end his suffering, to save money, even to open a bed for someone who has a chance. I'm not kidding, he said these things. When my grandmother couldn't decide, the doctor started giving so much morphine his organs were shutting down. My family went into civil war mode. Some for, some against (and it's a big family). I had a friend working in the hospital (an ICU nurse at the time) who told me "get him out of here if you want him to live". Myself and one of my aunts made arrangements to get him transferred to another hospital. It took a court order. Turned out, he had lung cancer. All those years of in and out, x-rays, etc. and they never checked for it. Anyway, to make a long, uncomfortable story short, he lived another 4 years. My grandmother was so glad she didn't listen to the doctor in the end. So what really was the doctors motivation?
And back on subject, I really think the medical profession should be left out of the decision until it's time to actually do the deed. The only person who gets to make the decision is the person it would effect. |
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02/29/2012 08:03:59 PM · #15 |
If we take the doctors out of the equation, wouldn't then just be suicide? Or if someone ,other than a medical professional, assissted.... who is to say the intentions were right? Wouldnt it be their word against the dead persons? Who do we involve to make sure the assist isnt foul play?
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02/29/2012 08:12:33 PM · #16 |
My personal opinion on the matter....If a person has a disease, (terminal or not) and does not want to be a burden to family. If that person wants to be let out of his misery but does not want to "pull the trigger". I believe that assisted suicide is just. However, There should be several doctors and a family member present for the procedure. Everyone involved should also sign a release or some sort of legal document to prevent the lawsuit that could happen.
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02/29/2012 08:27:01 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by dyridings:
If we take the doctors out of the equation, wouldn't then just be suicide? Or if someone ,other than a medical professional, assissted.... who is to say the intentions were right? Wouldnt it be their word against the dead persons? Who do we involve to make sure the assist isnt foul play? |
I didn't say take the doctors out of the equation. I said take the doctors out of the decision making process. The doctor would be the one performing the assist. I'd say only doctors who are comfortable doing it would do it. I'm sure there are more potential Kevorkian's out there somewhere. Veterinarian's do this on a regular basis for our pets. We care enough to let our pets out of their misery. Don't our family members deserve the same compassion? |
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02/29/2012 08:39:59 PM · #18 |
I have cancer and there is no escape. Yet I still resist pain medication, I work and I live a full life every day. In fact, I am past the date that was given to me and I promise you you will not know looking at me. I have no joy ride and it is not easy. The fight is erratic and progressive.
But comes the time when I say, "No more!", I will expect someone to help me.
Is it suicide? No, can not be. I have a terminal disease that is eating me from the inside. Killing me slowly and surely. Surely, allowing me to die like, for the lack of a better word sorry, a dog screaming in pain and starting to rot from the inside; is that humane? Is that not the duty of the doctor then to apply his promise of "First do no harm"? Is he not morally obliged to help me? My chondrsarcoma has now metastasized, is re-growing on the remaining rib fragments left after the 2 operations, grown into a tennis size ball size on my pelvic bone and a new growth on my spine. Not to mention the area where the needles from Monday showed only watery, dead blood. Will I live? No. Can they help me? No. What about chemotherapy and radiation? My cancer is resistant and can only be surgically treated. There is no cutting that can in any way save my life and definitely not improve the quality of my life. Suicide if I allow/ask the doctor to protect me from further harm, from screaming as I meet death in a manner no one should? After suffering now, and fighting still for many years, the past 3 being the worst? Suicide or assisted mercy termination of life that is not life anymore?
I have always said; it is not the mortality of man that bothers me, but the morbidity. I owe one death, it is how I meet it that I am concerned about.
And let me tell you; I am positive, I live, I swore the cancer will not take my mind and I will not wait for death, she can come look for me where I am living. But when the time comes when there is no more life, no more fight and no more me, I am happy to reach out and welcome her. I beg to die in peace, with dignity. I have fought the battle, I deserve the rest. May God have mercy on my soul.
Message edited by author 2012-02-29 20:44:30. |
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02/29/2012 09:10:09 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
I have cancer and there is no escape. Yet I still resist pain medication, I work and I live a full life every day. In fact, I am past the date that was given to me and I promise you you will not know looking at me. I have no joy ride and it is not easy. The fight is erratic and progressive.
But comes the time when I say, "No more!", I will expect someone to help me.
Is it suicide? No, can not be. I have a terminal disease that is eating me from the inside. Killing me slowly and surely. Surely, allowing me to die like, for the lack of a better word sorry, a dog screaming in pain and starting to rot from the inside; is that humane? Is that not the duty of the doctor then to apply his promise of "First do no harm"? Is he not morally obliged to help me? My chondrsarcoma has now metastasized, is re-growing on the remaining rib fragments left after the 2 operations, grown into a tennis size ball size on my pelvic bone and a new growth on my spine. Not to mention the area where the needles from Monday showed only watery, dead blood. Will I live? No. Can they help me? No. What about chemotherapy and radiation? My cancer is resistant and can only be surgically treated. There is no cutting that can in any way save my life and definitely not improve the quality of my life. Suicide if I allow/ask the doctor to protect me from further harm, from screaming as I meet death in a manner no one should? After suffering now, and fighting still for many years, the past 3 being the worst? Suicide or assisted mercy termination of life that is not life anymore?
I have always said; it is not the mortality of man that bothers me, but the morbidity. I owe one death, it is how I meet it that I am concerned about.
And let me tell you; I am positive, I live, I swore the cancer will not take my mind and I will not wait for death, she can come look for me where I am living. But when the time comes when there is no more life, no more fight and no more me, I am happy to reach out and welcome her. I beg to die in peace, with dignity. I have fought the battle, I deserve the rest. May God have mercy on my soul. |
That's what I'm talking about. Go Peter! I hope you live as long as you desire. I also hope you get the dignity you so deserve. |
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02/29/2012 09:24:56 PM · #20 |
| Peter, you are an amazing person. Frequently, your words move me to tears, as they have today. I do not 'know' you, but I have the utmost respect for you. You speak eloquently and with dignity always. Thank you for being a part of my world. |
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02/29/2012 09:27:17 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by pamb:
Peter, you are an amazing person. Frequently, your words move me to tears, as they have today. I do not 'know' you, but I have the utmost respect for you. You speak eloquently and with dignity always. Thank you for being a part of my world. |
Wonderfully said. |
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02/29/2012 09:56:48 PM · #22 |
@Kelli: I must have misinterpreted your previous post. My apologies.
Peter, you are a strong and inspirational person. Thank you for sharing your views
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02/29/2012 11:38:40 PM · #23 |
It seems pretty clear it's easy for most to agree suicide is ok when it's the better option to a life of suffering, but what about a life without that kind of suffering?
I had a debate with a friend once, who is not depressed, and loves her life and her statement went something like this:
"When I get to a certain age, I think I just want to die. I lived a good life, had a good run, I'd probably just want to die then." (It was a while ago so I'm not wording it quite as she did, it made more sense coming from her.)
I just couldn't wrap my brain around it though. We're both pretty young so I tried to chalk it up to her just kind of being naive about how she'll feel when she's older but then we got to debating the morality of it (for lack of a better term). Her argument was that if someone wants to end their life, they can. On the surface it sounds like it makes sense but it just eats away at me nonetheless. It seems so selfish and pointless to end a life that was working perfectly fine. Why would you? How does one tell the difference between someone who is depressed and needs help (saving from themselves, if you will) and someone who is of sound body and mind and just wants to be done? |
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03/01/2012 04:10:18 AM · #24 |
It is not our choice to die, I should know. But he who's death is imminent through no choice of his own should have the choice dying screaming or die peacefully. Because if not full of morphine, scream you will.
I have peace with my creator through which I am given my every breath. |
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03/01/2012 09:39:26 AM · #25 |
Originally posted by docpjv:
It is not our choice to die, I should know. But he who's death is imminent through no choice of his own should have the choice dying screaming or die peacefully. Because if not full of morphine, scream you will.
I have peace with my creator through which I am given my every breath. |
My brother made that choice, and very recently. He stopped chemotherapy on his inoperable pancreatic cancer, arranged for in-home hospice visits, and faded rapidly away over a period of a couple of months. He died peacefully with his wife at his side. It was a brave decision, and he remained upbeat to the end. But his decision was NOT to take his own life; it was to stop delaying the process of dying, to embrace it instead.
R.
Message edited by author 2012-03-01 09:40:43.
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