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06/06/2011 05:53:59 PM · #1 |
Lately I have noticed and felt the anger and frustration building in the challenges.
Why?
It's simple.
Think of the challenges as a recipe.
1 - The Recipe Title. The challenge is announced and people get excited....oooh, I have a great idea for this one.
2 - Let's start mixing. Some people can be a little confused as to what the challenge means. That's fair enough. So they either start a thread or go read the current thread on it. Other people have their own preconceived ideas and they are certain in what they believe. Or they read the challenge description a certain way and dismiss any other persons interpretation. Unfortunately some people are like sheep and they start to believe those ideas of others, whether they are right or wrong. People are now throwing in elements to the recipe that don't help the final outcome. Unfortunately not everyone has seen this thread. But their own ideas are still correct for the challenge.
3 - Let's start judging the recipe. Oh dear...those firm ideas as to what the challenge is or isn't about are now affecting the scores. One persons idea can still be correct but gets hammered due to the influence of others opinions.
4 - The winning recipe. Yup...the winner has been announced. Not everyone agrees with the winner. Why? Because the other angles of this challenge have either been ignored or belittled due to the influence of others opinions.
In summary...you start with a good recipe...you start adding other bits from the pantry and the recipe start to looks like mush. You cook it, stir it add a bit of love and it still looks like mush. But in the end the bright colorful bits float to the surface (the winners) whilst the other good bits get pushed to the bottom. They are just as good as the winners but are covered in the crap that others have added to the mix whether it be in votes or images that are good, but not necessarily right for the challenge due to the influence around them.
My suggestion folks...let's have a non-free study challenge where there is to be NO discussion before or during the challenge. Open it for discussion after the challenge has finished. It will be interesting to see all the wonderful individual ideas that can come from one challenge suggestion.
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06/06/2011 05:59:24 PM · #2 |
| Judi...I'm in total, 100% agreement with your post... |
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06/06/2011 06:27:41 PM · #3 |
I disagree.
I think some of these discussions are very helpful. There have certainly been times that someone has discussed an interpretation that never would have occurred to me. And I'm usually a pretty liberal voter.
I think the discussions open as many minds as it closes.
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06/06/2011 06:32:51 PM · #4 |
| My biggest gripe about all of this is that just because someone takes a good picture, but doesn't really fit the challenge except for the title, and it still does decent, is my biggest gripe. If you can't follow the rules, then the photo should be dq'd or do poor. But I guess enough people vote on the photo itself and don't consider the challenge rules that it does ok. Why do people vote this way? |
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06/06/2011 06:41:51 PM · #5 |
When I was active here (which I'm close to becoming again) I simply didn't read the threads till after I submitted. Never wanted to be influenced one way or another. Of course this plan only works if you don't mind 1 votes because "the challenge said make it scary, sexy OR fun... this entry is obviously both scary and fun so you didn't meet the challenge... 1"
Such is life :) |
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06/06/2011 07:08:00 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
Judi...I'm in total, 100% agreement with your post... |
+1 |
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06/06/2011 07:18:37 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
Judi...I'm in total, 100% agreement with your post... |
+1 |
+2 |
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06/06/2011 07:32:58 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
When I was active here (which I'm close to becoming again) I simply didn't read the threads till after I submitted. Never wanted to be influenced one way or another. Of course this plan only works if you don't mind 1 votes because "the challenge said make it scary, sexy OR fun... this entry is obviously both scary and fun so you didn't meet the challenge... 1"
Such is life :) |
Ditto. In fact I wish the challenge descrip wasn't as narrow as this one is. The idea I had in mind is emotive but scary? No. Sexy? No. Fun? Not intentionally. So if I enter at all, my entry probably won't do well. Which sucks, because I really wanted to enter, I love challenges like this. But the literalists on the site will surely vote my current entry idea down, unless I do make it fun/scary/sexy...*sigh*... |
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06/06/2011 07:34:32 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by CJinCA:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Originally posted by tfarrell23:
Judi...I'm in total, 100% agreement with your post... |
+1 |
+2 |
+2.5 |
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06/06/2011 10:51:12 PM · #10 |
| This is definitely worth considering. |
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06/06/2011 11:08:56 PM · #11 |
Only some of the people who enter challenges also read those forum threads.
Only some of those readers are truly influenced by them.
Only some of the readers are also participants.
The percentage in any given challenge of those who enter, read AND give a hoot about what they have read is probably very small.
I bet the difference between outcomes with vs without previous discussion would be close to undetectable, so why bother worrying about it? |
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06/06/2011 11:22:07 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Judi:
2 - ..... Other people have their own preconceived ideas and they are certain in what they believe. Or they read the challenge description a certain way and dismiss any other persons interpretation. Unfortunately some people are like sheep and they start to believe those ideas of others, whether they are right or wrong. |
Originally posted by Judi:
3.... One persons idea can still be correct but gets hammered due to the influence of others opinions. |
Originally posted by Judi:
My suggestion folks...let's have a non-free study challenge where there is to be NO discussion before or during the challenge. Open it for discussion after the challenge has finished. It will be interesting to see all the wonderful individual ideas that can come from one challenge suggestion. |
Even if we have a non-free study challenge where Silence! will be the golden rule - it will not eliminate those who tenaciously cling to their notions with a closed door mentality - they will be there in the voting public throwing their low votes at those they feel do not meet what they narrow mindedly think
Still - it would be an interesting experiment on one challenge where discussion of the topic is to remain silent until results roll in. Shame the Tuesday format is gone then there could have been two challenge to compare the results to see if there was any difference (one challenge where all discussion is withheld and the other where discussion on topic can rage before and during challenge) |
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06/06/2011 11:44:04 PM · #13 |
I don't think it really matters... I mean, how many people actually participate in a given discussion on the topic in the forums... 15... maybe 20 at most... I usually read and laugh at some of the narrow interpretations of the Challenge Topics... It certainly doesn't influence my shot, I could care less what a few narrow minded voters think. Take a look at my gallery, obviously I don't care what people think...LOL...
The Bottom line: I don't think it will make a difference for the better. In fact, the lack of discussion will probably do nothing more than keep narrow minds Narrow... I'd be willing to bet that scores on average would be lower, because it seems that when there is a discussion on a challenge topic, most of those participating in that discussion find and agree on common ground. Its usually only a few of the those in the thread that fall outside those lines with wacky interpretations...
It could however make for an interesting experiment... So let's do it, I'm curious to see how it would turn out... My guess is that the median score actually drops |
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06/07/2011 12:16:40 AM · #14 |
| Regardless of whether or not there is discussion before the challenge, I wish we had more discussions after the voting has concluded, along the line of this recent thread -- it seems as soon a challenge is over people are moving right along to the next one without looking back. I've tried (but failed so far) to think of a practical way to have a day or two gap between the conclusion of a challenge and posting of the next topic to allow for such review. :-( |
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06/07/2011 01:32:16 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by Sirashley:
It could however make for an interesting experiment... So let's do it, I'm curious to see how it would turn out... My guess is that the median score actually drops |
If its just a one time thing, it might, tho I would like it, I had mentioned doing this in a thread couple weeks ago.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Regardless of whether or not there is discussion before the challenge, I wish we had more discussions after the voting has concluded. |
I think this is a great idea as well, could be harder to do with a LOT of pictures in a challenge, but if they automatically created a Challenge Discussion thread and whomever wants can put their image in to be discussed that might work. |
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06/07/2011 01:48:25 AM · #16 |
I'm a bit puzzled as to how any conclusions could be drawn from such an experiment. An experiment needs a control in which all other elements are equal. Compare one undiscussed challenge with any/many discussed challenges and you have other variables to take into account.
I'm not saying it's a bad idea to have a challenge without the discussion, just that it wouldn't prove anything.
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06/07/2011 01:52:29 AM · #17 |
| Life is messy. Get over it. |
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06/07/2011 02:27:12 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by Dr.Confuser:
Life is messy. Get over it. |
Life's a bitch...than you die...but it doesn't mean one can't have fun and follow the rules at the same time!!
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06/07/2011 02:42:45 AM · #19 |
Oh, I thought you said beach :-)
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06/07/2011 03:27:03 AM · #20 |
You may not:
give an entry a lower score because you believe it violates the Challenge Rules.
recommend an entry for disqualification for not meeting the challenge.
vote on an entry based on its server-generated thumbnail.
vote on your own entry.
vote in a manner that suggests an intent to disrupt the voting system.
offer or cast biased votes for any other user.
offer slanderous, rude, profane or inflammatory comments.
abuse the anonymous commenting feature in any way.
discuss any entry in the forums while voting is in progress.
hold more than one DPChallenge account.
vote from another user’s DPChallenge account.
attempt to alter the point totals for any entry in any way
This is just my opinion, so please take it as such...during the submission and voting periods there is discussion on what the Challenge means and what is expected...people trade ideas back and forth...and during the voting they also discuss what is proper and not proper...so I think it (the discussions) alter the way people vote....all Judi is saying is to stop with the before and during banter..and let the chips fall where they may...you might find quieter forums and no score rants...(which btw become tiresome), until the Challenge is over...and then have a thread that discusses anything and everything that someone would want to know about what might be good or bad about their image, as GeneralE stated. Everything has their place. I know the above rules pertain to individual photos and photogs but discussing all the photos does alter the vote and it is not really kosher while the Challenge is in progress.
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06/07/2011 03:47:27 AM · #21 |
| I'm with the General - there should be much more post-challenge discussion and with all that goes on before and during, people are sick of it and ready to move on. I like the idea of not discussing a challenge before and during, but would rather see it instituted for a longer period of time - a month at least. Doing it for one challenge isn't going to reveal anything interesting, IMO. That said, if once is all people are willing to try it for, then go for it. |
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06/07/2011 04:04:37 AM · #22 |
I agree.
More post discussion, less/none prior.
Discussion prior/during influences concepts and voting.
Entries would be far more individualistic without prior discussion.
Discussion post challenge should be the best learning experience ever. |
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06/07/2011 07:55:53 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by rugman1969:
My biggest gripe about all of this is that just because someone takes a good picture, but doesn't really fit the challenge except for the title, and it still does decent, is my biggest gripe. If you can't follow the rules, then the photo should be dq'd or do poor. |
If you put a picture of a vulture in a bunny chellenge, and it does really well, no rules have been broken. |
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06/07/2011 08:29:28 AM · #24 |
Originally posted by bvy:
If you put a picture of a vulture in a bunny chellenge, and it does really well, no rules have been broken. |
True, but all that would tell me is that the voters don't care about the challenge requirements. They just see something they like and say "oooh, shiny" and give it a high score. We've seen it in past challenges. |
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06/07/2011 08:34:47 AM · #25 |
Needed is a reversion to an environment where excellent photography is celebrated with commensurate votes and supportive comments. Banish, we should, the predispositions of some to resent, out of jealousy and competitive angst, the excellent efforts of others. Somewhere along the line, a significantly large group of newer members & users arrived at the belief they could raise their own placement in challenges by voting down their strongest competition. A return to individual effort in photography, processing and voting is now imperative. Other methods of reaching out a helping hand to beginning photographers need to be developed. I fear some of the legal collaborative energy has been misdirected to the detriment of challenge fairness and objectivity.
I have no data to support any of my allegations. These are just my opinions about what has developed which now threatens to derail a previously well oiled locomotive. |
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