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05/07/2011 09:30:04 AM · #1 |
When I go out to site see with my coworkers/friends, they always ask for a copy of my photos...Why do I feel reluctant to give them away? These are the small jpegs taken at the same time as the RAWs...but it just bugs me for some reason. Am I ok to feel this way?
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05/07/2011 09:31:41 AM · #2 |
I know how you feel. I'm even asked to "bring my camera" to most events....however, until we grow some Gazokas and start our little business, we will always be the "friend with the camera" !
Originally posted by jbpk11:
When I go out to site see with my coworkers/friends, they always ask for a copy of my photos...Why do I feel reluctant to give them away? These are the small jpegs taken at the same time as the RAWs...but it just bugs me for some reason. Am I ok to feel this way? |
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05/07/2011 09:35:30 AM · #3 |
I would be pleased. Unless you were otherwise going to make money from them, why wouldn't you give them to friends.
If you are getting a lot of requests, why don't you set up a "prints to order" thingy from one of the many available websites, that way each time they ask, you can just direct them to that and make a little money from them.
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05/07/2011 09:42:16 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
I would be pleased. Unless you were otherwise going to make money from them, why wouldn't you give them to friends.
If you are getting a lot of requests, why don't you set up a "prints to order" thingy from one of the many available websites, that way each time they ask, you can just direct them to that and make a little money from them. |
Generally my friends dont ask, or they will offer to pay because they know that I do sell my photos...however I'm in Djibouti, Djibouti right now and go on day trips with co-workers...they all want to exchange photos at the end of the day...
I have nicely said that I don't generally give away my jpegs...didn't get a good reaction from that one though.
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05/07/2011 09:43:44 AM · #5 |
I gave photos of my grandchildren to their other grandmother. Some time later she showed me some photos she took of them at a venue not attended by me. Surprise, surprise - there were a few of my pics in there. One in particular, a nice one of grandson and his other Granddad, I spent a lot of time on, removing tomato sauce from grandson's shirt. I was flabbergasted, but I let it pass. She obviously didn't remember she got that pic from me, and I didn't want to sour relationships by making anything of it.
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05/07/2011 09:43:59 AM · #6 |
| Back in the film days I always used to just automatically order double prints and give copies to whoever was in the shot. It didn't cost anymore (usually). Now, if they want copies I just email them web sized shots. Usually they only want to use them online anyway. If someone wants something larger I'll email a larger size, but let them get it printed themselves. This is mostly family I'm talking about though. I'm getting ready to do a barter shoot with my hairdresser. She's going to do a cut/color/keratin treatment for me and I'm going to do a photo shoot of her daughter. For that, she'll get edited shots on a cd that she can print herself. |
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05/07/2011 09:50:05 AM · #7 |
Family I dont mind, and group photos and things of that nature I dont mind either...it's when they start asking for my creative shots that gets me...
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05/07/2011 12:09:14 PM · #8 |
I don't object, but I'm not caring if I make any money with my photography. I'm flattered, in fact. It might make a difference if you are using your photography to earn some income. I've been asked to photograph a couple of company events and my stepdaughter asked me to edit her photos from her recent vacation (when she borrowed my G11) One of my coworkers paints and sometimes uses my photos as the basis for a painting, that's pretty cool.
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05/07/2011 12:25:29 PM · #9 |
Nope, I don't give anything away. Even if there's no actual money, there's barter. I just did that with a theater who needed publicity shots. Got 8 hours of studio time with a cyclorama.
I am gearing up for this to be business. And saying no to free images is part of my "mental training". If someone asks me as a favor, I will consider it, but I refuse to have anyone expect/assume they'll receive something for nothing just because they know me. In today's world where everything has a camera attached to it, if they just want a "keepsake", they can take the picture themselves. The fact that they're asking me means they want something better, and better has a price. |
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05/07/2011 12:27:59 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Nope, I don't give anything away. Even if there's no actual money, there's barter. I just did that with a theater who needed publicity shots. Got 8 hours of studio time with a cyclorama.
I am gearing up for this to be business. And saying no to free images is part of my "mental training". If someone asks me as a favor, I will consider it, but I refuse to have anyone expect/assume they'll receive something for nothing just because they know me. In today's world where everything has a camera attached to it, if they just want a "keepsake", they can take the picture themselves. The fact that they're asking me means they want something better, and better has a price. |
+1 |
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05/07/2011 12:38:37 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Nope, I don't give anything away. Even if there's no actual money, there's barter. I just did that with a theater who needed publicity shots. Got 8 hours of studio time with a cyclorama.
I am gearing up for this to be business. And saying no to free images is part of my "mental training". If someone asks me as a favor, I will consider it, but I refuse to have anyone expect/assume they'll receive something for nothing just because they know me. In today's world where everything has a camera attached to it, if they just want a "keepsake", they can take the picture themselves. The fact that they're asking me means they want something better, and better has a price. |
So that means I don't get copies of your last shoot?
Drat!! :( |
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05/07/2011 12:41:54 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
So that means I don't get copies of your last shoot?
Drat!! :( |
Hehehe. I'll trade for one of your squirrels :-) |
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05/07/2011 05:20:39 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Originally posted by vawendy:
So that means I don't get copies of your last shoot?
Drat!! :( |
Hehehe. I'll trade for one of your squirrels :-) |
You can have all of my squirrels!!!!! My husband bought me two milkweed plants from a native plant sale. I left them on the table on my deck. The squirrels dug up both of them and ate all the roots!
I am definitely NOT pleased with the squirrels and will happily ship them out to anyone who wants them. :) |
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05/07/2011 07:14:56 PM · #14 |
I get asked to bring a camera to tons of work-related events. Often. I spend the evening following an event doing basic editing - sift and delete, crop, curves/levels, a few creative edits, resize for web and for print. Then I put it all on a CD and take it to work and give it all away.
I am not very bright. :-) |
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05/07/2011 07:52:18 PM · #15 |
| It's funny. I used to be happy to give prints away when I was shooting film, and in the beginning was happy to share dpc sized jpegs. Now, though my opinion of my talent is not that much more inflated, I am not so happy to share. Partly it is because, as Deb says, so much time is spent going through all your shots, fiddling with a great many and so forth; but it is also because I think a lot more people are graceless in the asking and receiving. |
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05/07/2011 11:02:49 PM · #16 |
The problem with friends is that they feel insulted when you tell them that they should pay you for your time and prints. Even when you are cutting them an outrageous deal in the first place. I took a few shots for a friend a few weeks back of his kid. He keeps telling me he wants to by some of them from me in an 8X10 size but in the meantime keeps asking me to throw them on a disk for him. I told him I'd give him a disk with the images in a smaller (web ready)format after he buys a few prints. I feel guilty about it because he is a real close friend but I shut down a good chunk of time on a Saturday to do this without asking for payment and spent a few hours choosing and editing the best ones knowing that he would purchase only 2-5 prints. I'll probably give in soon and just give him a disk.
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05/08/2011 01:07:48 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by SEG:
The problem with friends is that they feel insulted when you tell them that they should pay you for your time and prints. Even when you are cutting them an outrageous deal in the first place. I took a few shots for a friend a few weeks back of his kid. He keeps telling me he wants to by some of them from me in an 8X10 size but in the meantime keeps asking me to throw them on a disk for him. I told him I'd give him a disk with the images in a smaller (web ready)format after he buys a few prints. I feel guilty about it because he is a real close friend but I shut down a good chunk of time on a Saturday to do this without asking for payment and spent a few hours choosing and editing the best ones knowing that he would purchase only 2-5 prints. I'll probably give in soon and just give him a disk. |
I highlighted what was important in all that you said. If you want paid, you must mention it up front, otherwise they just think you are doing it as a friend. It would be like having sex with a woman, then afterwards she decides she is a hooker and needs paid.......would you still have had sex if you knew she was going to want to be paid afterwards? |
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05/08/2011 01:27:51 AM · #18 |
I did a full-up engagement shoot for friends as a wedding gift. Spent all day shooting, days of selection and retouching, and delivered the images.
I got a "thanks, when will we see the rest?" followed later by a "you don't have to retouch them, just zip them all up and send them, and you don't have to put your name on them if you don't like them"
Sigh.
I feel like I almost have to have a contract for freebie work for friends, now: this is what I will do for free, this is what you will get, this is what you will not get, sign here to indicate your understanding and acceptance of this friendly gift. Which kinda kills the whole mood of the thing in the first place.
It may be better to avoid free work for friends altogether: offer them a deeply discounted price (no shoot fee, limited number of final images, free web/facebook ready images, and smugmug order/payment/delivery for prints.
I have done some arrangements with specific friends: full up free shoot, including prints and/or printable files, in exchange for their referrals of their friends to me (and not telling their friends I will do it for free). I choose those friends carefully--they don't really know each other, and they know a lot of other people that I don't know, are very social, etc. so that a lot of people will end up seeing the pictures. I tell those friends that they are getting a $xxx shoot before print orders, so they understand the value of the deal. So far, none of them has asked me for "all the images on a disk" etc. So far.....
But the Free shoot as a straight gift, where no value or limits are discussed is, I have learned, not a good idea. It isn't my friend's fault--they don't know anything about how much work it all is. They saw the first image and said, wow, it really does make a difference when you use a professional camera! (like the old "your pans cook great food" bit). They had been pricing and evaluating wedding photographers, so I assumed they had some vague notion of what I was saving them for an engagement shoot, but I never clarified or specified anything, so it is my fault, not theirs. I just felt at the time that it was bad form to say I am giving you a gift worth $xxxxx.... |
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05/08/2011 03:37:52 AM · #19 |
I've done some work for friends, paid and otherwise, and I make sure to discuss that outright right away, so both parties are on the same page. I do a small amount of paid work but it is mostly just something I enjoy doing, so I would by no means say I'm a professional, but it's just proper communication.
On the other side of things, I've got a friend that uses a bunch of my photos as his desktops on his various computers, and I don't care about that. He says he likes this or that and I send him a desktop sized version. When I go on vacation with friends and take photos of us and of the scenery, I'll do prints with a small markup, but I don't just give them away as digital copies or anything.
Talk it out, be up front. Not too bad. Wait till later, after you're grumbling and stewing in your own frustration? It's too late. Lesson for the future. |
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05/08/2011 08:51:56 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Originally posted by SEG:
The problem with friends is that they feel insulted when you tell them that they should pay you for your time and prints. Even when you are cutting them an outrageous deal in the first place. I took a few shots for a friend a few weeks back of his kid. He keeps telling me he wants to by some of them from me in an 8X10 size but in the meantime keeps asking me to throw them on a disk for him. I told him I'd give him a disk with the images in a smaller (web ready)format after he buys a few prints. I feel guilty about it because he is a real close friend but I shut down a good chunk of time on a Saturday to do this without asking for payment and spent a few hours choosing and editing the best ones knowing that he would purchase only 2-5 prints. I'll probably give in soon and just give him a disk. |
I highlighted what was important in all that you said. If you want paid, you must mention it up front, otherwise they just think you are doing it as a friend. It would be like having sex with a woman, then afterwards she decides she is a hooker and needs paid.......would you still have had sex if you knew she was going to want to be paid afterwards? |
He was notified up front that usually a fee is associated with the shoot and that since he was a friend I would not charge him. I even mentioned it several times so he would perceive the value. Problem is that he just keeps asking for a disk without purchasIng prints which was our up front arrangement. I'll probably give him watermarked images because I know he wants to use it for Facebook and emailing family & friends. Hopefully at the least I'll get exposure from it.
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05/08/2011 10:15:24 PM · #21 |
Congratulations! You're reaching the point where money becomes part of the equation...
It's a normal progression, especially here at dpc. It's starts with a camera, probably a point-and-shoot. You are constantly exposed to images produced with better gear, you push your gear as far as it will go, and you ultimately upgrade your gear. First the body, then the glass. And the software - don't forget the software. You are not only capturing decent images, but you have learned the art of post-production (and you have developed the skills necessary to spend a few hours combing through and processing your images).
Before you know it, between equipment, effort, experience, and some good advice, you are consistently producing some decent images.
We're talking images that not only your spouse and mom like, but images that your friends and their friends like. Images that the parents of your kids like. Images that your boss and co-workers like. And that's the problem.
Everybody likes your images, but since you're not a pro, nobody thinks they should have to pay you. It doesn't matter how much time and money you have poured into this hobby, you are still nothing but a guy or a girl or a mom or a dad with a camera. That might not be how you see yourself, but that's how you are seen.
So what can you do about it?
It all depends on what you want to do. Do you want to go pro? Do you want to be semi-pro? Do you really want to run a business?
I recently offered someone else similar advice related to pricing their work:
Originally posted by skip:
As for pricing, it depends on what you're end game is. Do you want to simply pick up some extra cash, do you want to seriously moonlight, or do you want to run a business? Most people get into this because of the results they get with their gear and the fact that other people are willing to spend some money on good pictures. The problem is that there is SO MUCH MORE to having a business than just taking the pictures. A lot of people start out and end up bailing, simply because they aren't prepared to handle the production and administrative parts of the business, let alone the sales and marketing.
If you aren't looking to jump in all the way, then don't charge much. Money complicates things. People will have expectations and make demands. Do you want the stress?
Before you go too much further, take some time to explore the business side of what you're doing, especially in terms of where you might be going. Consider just how much time you want to put into it and how much you'll get out of it (in terms of enjoyment and revenue). A lot of times, these things can snowball into something a lot more complicated than the hobbyist had in mind (think taxes - especially sales taxes, business license, professional website, marketing material, accountant - you get the picture). As long as have a clear idea as to what you're willing to commit to and realistic expectations as to what you can get out of it, you can have some fun and pick up some extra gear money.
Keep it simple, don't over-extend yourself, and you'll be fine. If you are up front with people and tell them you are not a pro and you only charge in order to buy new gear, they won't have the same expectations as if they went into a retail studio. Just tell people you charge $50 bucks for about a half-hour session and you'll give them the best out-of-camera images on a disk and that they can do whatever they want with them. Offer basic post-production for another $25-50 for the whole batch. After that, maybe offer custom editing for $25/hr, charged in 15 minute increments to the nearest quarter hour, minimum one half hour. And if they seem to have "expectations", simply suggest that they might be better served by someone who does this work full-time.
Lastly, do read and research as much as you can about the business of photography. |
If the idea of having a business doesn't appeal to you, even a small business, then you'll need to develop a workflow that will allow you to give your work away. That simple, just give it way. It doesn't matter if it's an image at a time or a whole CD of images. It doesn't matter if you give them away straight out of camera or if you've edited the heck out of them. Just give them away.
On the other hand, if it starts to bother you that you are being appreciated for your results but not your efforts and investments, then you really need to explore starting a small, part-time business. The main thing is to be fair. It doesn't matter if you are charging for an image or charging for your time, don't just wing it. If you are going to charge, at least take the time to think things through and come up with a fair and reasonable price list.
Ultimately, until you make a decision, those nagging feelings won't go away... |
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