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04/14/2011 09:17:00 PM · #1
I understand that Advanced rules does now allow for multiple exposures (ie HDR), as long as the composition/framing does not change.

Now here is my question:

Say for instance one was shooting a night landscape with the moon in frame and someone wants to do two exposures, one for the moon, the other for the landscape.

Would one be allowed to "flag" the moon, say for instance with a small black piece of paper for the landscape exposure, if they wanted to control glare/flare?
04/14/2011 09:24:11 PM · #2
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

I understand that Advanced rules does now allow for multiple exposures (ie HDR), as long as the composition/framing does not change.

Now here is my question:

Say for instance one was shooting a night landscape with the moon in frame and someone wants to do two exposures, one for the moon, the other for the landscape.

Would one be allowed to "flag" the moon, say for instance with a small black piece of paper for the landscape exposure, if they wanted to control glare/flare?


I'm not quite sure I understand flagging. If you're covering the moon, then the shots would be different- -one with and one without a moon...
04/14/2011 09:24:45 PM · #3
My guess is that it wouldn't be allowed.
04/14/2011 09:28:55 PM · #4
You guys are guessing wrong, I think. After all, it's legal to do in-camera double exposures, always had been, by flagging during a long exposure or between strobes. I don't see why the moon would be any different...

R.
04/14/2011 09:29:00 PM · #5
The best you can do is use RAW as a single frame, develop one with exposure shifted all the way down for the moon, sifted all the way up for the ground. Its not ideal , but advanced rule require you get what you can out of a single exposure. Anything in that one frame is OK.


Message edited by author 2011-04-14 21:30:26.
04/14/2011 09:30:36 PM · #6
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

The best you can do is use RAW as a single frame, develop one with exposure shifted all the way down for the moon, sifted all the way up for the ground. Its not ideal , but advanced rule require you get what you can out of a single exposure.


That's not true, advanced rules allow HDR compositing of up to 10 separate exposures.

What he wants to do is block the light from the moon during his long exposure, because it will cause flare in that region of the sky. I see no reason why he can't, offhand.
04/14/2011 09:30:59 PM · #7
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You guys are guessing wrong, I think. After all, it's legal to do in-camera double exposures, always had been, by flagging during a long exposure or between strobes. I don't see why the moon would be any different...

R.


It didn't sound like he was asking about one. He said two exposures in the original post.
04/14/2011 09:32:29 PM · #8
Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You guys are guessing wrong, I think. After all, it's legal to do in-camera double exposures, always had been, by flagging during a long exposure or between strobes. I don't see why the moon would be any different...

R.


It didn't sound like he was asking about one. He said two exposures in the original post.


You miss my point: he wants to do an HDR image, and that allows multiple exposures. He wants to flag one of those exposures. Since flagging is legal in a single exposure (even in basic editing) how could it be illegal in an HDR merge?

R.
04/14/2011 09:32:47 PM · #9
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

The best you can do is use RAW as a single frame, develop one with exposure shifted all the way down for the moon, sifted all the way up for the ground. Its not ideal , but advanced rule require you get what you can out of a single exposure.


That's not true, advanced rules allow HDR compositing of up to 10 separate exposures.

What he wants to do is block the light from the moon during his long exposure, because it will cause flare in that region of the sky. I see no reason why he can't, offhand.


He could probably block it for most of the exposure as long as its not the whole shot. Then there's still a moon.
04/14/2011 09:34:26 PM · #10
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You guys are guessing wrong, I think. After all, it's legal to do in-camera double exposures, always had been, by flagging during a long exposure or between strobes. I don't see why the moon would be any different...

R.


It didn't sound like he was asking about one. He said two exposures in the original post.


You miss my point: he wants to do an HDR image, and that allows multiple exposures. He wants to flag one of those exposures. Since flagging is legal in a single exposure (even in basic editing) how could it be illegal in an HDR merge?

R.


Again, I probably don't understand flagging. But I don't think you can completely block it.
04/14/2011 09:37:11 PM · #11
Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You guys are guessing wrong, I think. After all, it's legal to do in-camera double exposures, always had been, by flagging during a long exposure or between strobes. I don't see why the moon would be any different...

R.


It didn't sound like he was asking about one. He said two exposures in the original post.


You miss my point: he wants to do an HDR image, and that allows multiple exposures. He wants to flag one of those exposures. Since flagging is legal in a single exposure (even in basic editing) how could it be illegal in an HDR merge?

R.


Again, I probably don't understand flagging. But I don't think you can completely block it.


He WOULDN'T completely block it, he'd let it be there for a small portion of the exposure. Or that's what I'd do, anyway...

R.
04/14/2011 09:38:06 PM · #12
Can anyone tell me how i access the "extra rules" that some of the challenges are flagged with please?
04/14/2011 09:38:51 PM · #13
Originally posted by dslrAngel:

Can anyone tell me how i access the "extra rules" that some of the challenges are flagged with please?


Just read the description, it will show it there
04/14/2011 09:41:15 PM · #14
thanks - so there basically isn't a whole lot different from the typical advanced editing rules... or i'm missing the differences
04/14/2011 10:00:15 PM · #15
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


He WOULDN'T completely block it, he'd let it be there for a small portion of the exposure. Or that's what I'd do, anyway...

R.


Probably would do so, also, but I was wondering if completely removing it from the second exposure would be allowable.
04/14/2011 10:01:31 PM · #16
Originally posted by dslrAngel:

thanks - so there basically isn't a whole lot different from the typical advanced editing rules... or i'm missing the differences


Usually the flags just mean the challenge is running under a different rule set than usual. Sometimes it does mean there is an extra rule.
04/14/2011 10:01:36 PM · #17
The reason that the exclusive challenges have been flagged is because they are usually basic editing and this time they are advanced editing. Normal advanced editing rules apply.
04/14/2011 10:13:55 PM · #18
Ok let me take a crack at explaining it. If you are taking a multiple exposure photo say for an HDR shot the framing and composition can not change so the moon would have to be in all the shots that you intend to use. So you can not flag out the moon in one exposure to reduce the overall glare if you block out the whole moon so it shows nothing. Whether you can flag it long enough during that frames exposure and at the last second or two allow just enough through to have it in the frame is a little borderline, but I think you can do this. Since technically you haven't removed or added any OBJECT to the frame.

As Robert also said you can do in camera single exposures by covering the lens or turning on lights or strobes and moving in and out of the frame, but that is for single exposures. If you try to do that with a multiple exposure it would be illegal because all frames have to be framed and composed the same.

Dave
04/14/2011 10:16:57 PM · #19
I think Dave and Robert are right... just remove the flag long enough to get the moon in the shot. Would still be effective in removing glare...
04/14/2011 10:39:01 PM · #20
Personally I think there is a better and easier way to accomplish what you want. Take your normal multiple exposure and double process in your HDR software. You're allowed 10 exposures of the same scene in Advanced editing. So why not for instance expose for the foreground in 5 of the exposure and expose a couple or the other 5 for the moon and sky. Take both sets into something like Photomatix Pro separately so you have one combined file for the ground and another file for the sky. Layer them in Photoshop and then mask them together. As long as you don't go over the 10 exposures it should be perfectly legal. When processing the file for the sky portion leave out any exposures that will cause unwanted glare.

Dave
04/14/2011 10:47:14 PM · #21
Yeah, you definitely need it to still be in the frame. They allow for small amounts of incidental movement, but that's a significant change (moon goes goodbye) and would be a certain DQ.
The double exposure technique might work better for what you're talking about, but doing the exposure quick enough for a moon shot requires you make a slotted card to pass in front of the lens (depending upon exposure, obviously, but typically this is true) in order to achieve a fast enough "shutter speed" for the moon itself.
04/14/2011 11:12:44 PM · #22
Here's how I see it.

I you do this shot with two exposures for HDR or any other purpose and in one shot you block out the moon and in the other shot the moon is there...it will be a DQ.

When you are asked to turn in your ORIGINAL two photos, one will have the moon and one will not have the moon......DQ.
04/14/2011 11:22:00 PM · #23
Without fully blocking out the moon the moon will move making the shots illegal because it would be making a moon trail but blocking it completely would make them different compositions, my guess is either way it could run afoul of the rules. Best to make the image and submit a ticket, I would love to hear how it is ruled by SC.
04/14/2011 11:37:34 PM · #24
SC members usually read these threads. I think the issue/question is interesting and clear enough to ask the SC to please post the answer here.
Would it be legal to fully block the moon in one of the combined shots? Why?
Does a partial blocking make it legal? Why?
04/14/2011 11:37:39 PM · #25
I wish I could remember who's image it was but there was a lovely night picture with a swan hit by a strobe in an HDR which was DQed on the logic that there was a fundamental difference between one frame and the next.

You can flag or slot a single exposure. You can pop your strobe to get a person moving through the frame. You can double expose completely different scenes. What you can't do is create a similar scene by combining scenes that the "average viewer" would see as being different frame to frame in subject matter.

If I'm wrong I need to get better at HDR.
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