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07/15/2010 07:52:27 AM · #1 |
Can we pull together to stop the photoshop madness? I'm not talking about photographers who like to photoshop the hell out of photos. If that is what you do, then by all means feel free to do so.
NO, I'm talking about consumers who assume that we can photoshop anything. I'm getting sick of hearing the "you can just photoshop it." No I can't. My job is to take a good photo and use photoshop to enhance the photo. Bad photos go in the trash. Photos are going to look very realistic and reflect what the camera sees. So constantly here "I have fat arms so you have to photoshop that", "my belly is big, but you can just photoshop it smaller", "I'm missing an arm but you can just photoshop me a new one", "the kids [dogs, cats,etc] won't sit still, but you should be able to photoshop them so they look like they are sitting".
How about instead of telling me to photoshop all this crap, you get in the gym or train your pets?
People need to stop assuming that we can photoshop everything. If I could do all that, what do I need them there for at all...I can just draw a photo and photoshop it to look like them. I don't know what it is...I'm guess i'm just starting to get annoyed with what people are telling me that I can photoshop....not asking me if i can, but telling me that I can do it. And when I tell them I can't they ignore it and tell me more crap that I can photoshop.
And this is not aimed at a particular person and threw out random scenarios so that it doesn't reflect any particular person or group of people. |
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07/15/2010 07:59:40 AM · #2 |
I thought this was going to be another "Photography Purity" whine, but I am 100% behind you. You can't fix ugly! LOL!!!
(Just FTR, that's why I stand BEHIND the camera! LOL!!!)
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07/15/2010 08:15:01 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I thought this was going to be another "Photography Purity" whine, but I am 100% behind you. You can't fix ugly! LOL!!!
(Just FTR, that's why I stand BEHIND the camera! LOL!!!) |
Or maybe they have seen this a little too often!!!!
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07/15/2010 08:24:11 AM · #4 |
| Right on. What's the ol'e saying "If you want a prettier picture bring a prettier face". |
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07/15/2010 08:34:48 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I thought this was going to be another "Photography Purity" whine, but I am 100% behind you. You can't fix ugly! LOL!!!
(Just FTR, that's why I stand BEHIND the camera! LOL!!!) |
Originally posted by Judi:
Or maybe they have seen this a little too often!!!! |
That was freakin' amazing!
And it only took a couple of minutes, too! ROFL!!!!
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07/15/2010 08:56:33 AM · #6 |
I disagree with your argument... As a marketing analyst, I want to warn you that you may be passing up great revenue potential. You could charge one rate for the photo shoot and a standard edit, then an additional rate for the additional hours of making the ugly look pretty. Heck, if you are a wedding photographer you can just get the pictures from the perfect wedding and copy their heads over. Every groom can look as charming and every bride can be beautiful. Heck, why stop there... why not just have stock wedding photos that you can give them. Obviously these people don't want to live in reality, just complete the fantasy.
It's a standard American marketing tactic. We can make you look pretty, but you will pay through the nose and it will be completely fake. |
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07/15/2010 08:56:39 AM · #7 |
| So funny! I once did a glamour shoot where the client was wearing a stained white tank top when I showed up. I asked her to change and her answer "can't you just photoshop out the stains?" ROFL! |
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07/15/2010 08:58:27 AM · #8 |
First post I really wanted to comment on. I completly agree with what albc28 has mentioned. People see photoshop as something more important than the camera itself. If they are good in photoshop, they can just make any picture look pretty.
I'm new to photography, so I could be wrong...but I would go 1 step further to say that DPC could emphasize more on Minimal/Basic editing challenges than on Expert/Advanced challenges. The whole point of a challenge should be to TAKE a photo worthy of a ribbon, not just MAKE one. |
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07/15/2010 09:07:12 AM · #9 |
Originally posted by theraindew:
First post I really wanted to comment on. I completly agree with what albc28 has mentioned. People see photoshop as something more important than the camera itself. If they are good in photoshop, they can just make any picture look pretty.
I'm new to photography, so I could be wrong...but I would go 1 step further to say that DPC could emphasize more on Minimal/Basic editing challenges than on Expert/Advanced challenges. The whole point of a challenge should be to TAKE a photo worthy of a ribbon, not just MAKE one. |
I actually prefer no rules, since that's the way you need to be in the real world. |
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07/15/2010 09:41:11 AM · #10 |
theraindew: Photoshop when it is used properly will help you to save many amazing pictures from the trashbin. The trick is to not go overboard. I rate pictures poorly if they are overdone in ps (I hate vignettes from hell and when people crank up the saturation till it hurts).
The picture below is an example of saving a picture from the trash.
To Kelli: I like the rules. It causes me to try different things. Otherwise I would be doing the same thing over and over again.
I guess this post had degenerated to a photoshop purity rant. |
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07/15/2010 09:46:52 AM · #11 |
| I couldn't agree more.... The entire reason I stopped doing senior portraits was my last one was a 16, but she squeezed herself into a size 10 pants and then wanted me to photoshop away her muffin top belly.. and then she wore PLAID... I almost died.. I managed to do it, but from this point on, what you see is what you get... no more boob jobs, face lifts, tummy tucks, chin lifts or hair pieces.. If you don't like how you look, then deal with it... :-) |
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07/15/2010 09:54:23 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by theraindew:
First post I really wanted to comment on. I completly agree with what albc28 has mentioned. People see photoshop as something more important than the camera itself. If they are good in photoshop, they can just make any picture look pretty.
I'm new to photography, so I could be wrong...but I would go 1 step further to say that DPC could emphasize more on Minimal/Basic editing challenges than on Expert/Advanced challenges. The whole point of a challenge should be to TAKE a photo worthy of a ribbon, not just MAKE one. |
I actually prefer no rules, since that's the way you need to be in the real world. |
I have to agree with Kelli on this one. To be competitive these days we need to TAKE a great photo and then MAKE it even better with the appropriate post processing.
I suppose the one exception would be photojournalism or documentary work where it's inappropriate to change the content of the image but it's ok to adjust exposure and then burn and dodge to bring out the light.
But, back on the original topic, fixing crazy hair in photoshop drives me nuts and it takes forever. I'll be shooting an outdoor portrait with this wonderful rim light created by the sun and all that's running through my head is the hours or retouching I'm going to have to endure because of that hair.
Message edited by author 2010-07-15 09:55:44. |
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07/15/2010 10:53:29 AM · #13 |
I'm not touching photographers who like to photoshop. That's the photographers perogative. I just don't want consumers to think that everything can be fixed in photoshop.
Like MrsBillyJack said...if you don't like how you look then do something about it, but don't ask me to perform magic. Sure, if there are a couple of stray hairs...easily fixed. The colors are slightly faded easy fix...these are all things that don't CHANGE the photo, but enhance the photo and it still looks the same. But I can not perform surgery during the editing and give you a tummy tuck. I am not going to be a personal trainer and add muscles to your photo.
I can not...absolutely can't...and refuse to even try taking a picture of you, taking a picture of your dog and putting them together on a cloudy day with the sun going in and out of clouds, without a tripod, while your dog refuses to sit still and trying to make you look skinnier while wearing a corset that's 3 times too small for you....it just ain't happening. And it is completely inappropriate of you to expect that from me....especially after I already told you that I couldn't do it. |
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07/15/2010 10:58:39 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by louinsd:
theraindew: Photoshop when it is used properly will help you to save many amazing pictures from the trashbin. The trick is to not go overboard. I rate pictures poorly if they are overdone in ps (I hate vignettes from hell and when people crank up the saturation till it hurts).
The picture below is an example of saving a picture from the trash.
To Kelli: I like the rules. It causes me to try different things. Otherwise I would be doing the same thing over and over again.
I guess this post had degenerated to a photoshop purity rant. |
Okay.....which one is the good one???? LOL!!!
Seriously, if you shoot an image that's trash, you can't save it in PhotoShop. Your examples are really not a valid example of what kind of things you really can do with PhotoShop. There simply wasn't that much work to be done.....five minutes max. That vid showed what certainly appeared to me to be hours of salvage, and at what pirce, really? Someone that good should charge a LOT of money, and how many people can really afford three hours of a highly skilled person to do that after already paying what it should cost for a sitting with a serious professional? What becomes an issue is when something like that video is done. That's completely ludicrous because it's no longer a picture of that woman. Who could look at the before and after and mistake that for anything but a complete and total fabrication?
Yes, it's nice to be able to enhance and/or repair minor flaws, but miracle work, and the expectation of it simply isn't reasonable. There are times when I wish I was a PS genius, but I'd rather just be that good at photography that I don't have so much need of being able to polish said turd.
The expectaion of the uninformed that PS can save anything, and at the click of a mouse is not reasonable nor helpful.
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07/15/2010 12:15:49 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by louinsd:
theraindew: Photoshop when it is used properly will help you to save many amazing pictures from the trashbin. The trick is to not go overboard. I rate pictures poorly if they are overdone in ps (I hate vignettes from hell and when people crank up the saturation till it hurts).
The picture below is an example of saving a picture from the trash.
To Kelli: I like the rules. It causes me to try different things. Otherwise I would be doing the same thing over and over again.
I guess this post had degenerated to a photoshop purity rant. |
Okay.....which one is the good one???? LOL!!!
Seriously, if you shoot an image that's trash, you can't save it in PhotoShop. Your examples are really not a valid example of what kind of things you really can do with PhotoShop. There simply wasn't that much work to be done.....five minutes max. That vid showed what certainly appeared to me to be hours of salvage, and at what pirce, really? Someone that good should charge a LOT of money, and how many people can really afford three hours of a highly skilled person to do that after already paying what it should cost for a sitting with a serious professional? What becomes an issue is when something like that video is done. That's completely ludicrous because it's no longer a picture of that woman. Who could look at the before and after and mistake that for anything but a complete and total fabrication?
Yes, it's nice to be able to enhance and/or repair minor flaws, but miracle work, and the expectation of it simply isn't reasonable. There are times when I wish I was a PS genius, but I'd rather just be that good at photography that I don't have so much need of being able to polish said turd.
The expectaion of the uninformed that PS can save anything, and at the click of a mouse is not reasonable nor helpful. |
2 points...
First I stand by my original post... If the customer wants photoshop artistry, charge for it. If you are not able to provide that service, let them know in advance. Part of business is to set expectations for the services provided. Lets face it, if a customer wants too much then you need to suggest to them that they sit for a painting instead. A painter will be able to make them look any way they like.
Second point, my example would never pass for the basic editing rules on here. I lightened and darkened selective areas. Yeah, it didn't take much time. Comming straight from the camera though the picture was dookie. |
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07/15/2010 12:29:36 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by louinsd:
2 points...
First I stand by my original post... If the customer wants photoshop artistry, charge for it. If you are not able to provide that service, let them know in advance. Part of business is to set expectations for the services provided. Lets face it, if a customer wants too much then you need to suggest to them that they sit for a painting instead. A painter will be able to make them look any way they like. |
We're both on the same page as the OP. Of course you need to have decent PS skills in the digital age......you have to be able to make a beautul woman look her absolute best. But you cannot make a silk purse from a sow's ear and the expectation that you can is all too common.
Originally posted by louinsd:
Second point, my example would never pass for the basic editing rules on here. I lightened and darkened selective areas. Yeah, it didn't take much time. Comming straight from the camera though the picture was dookie. |
You certainly have pretty high standards as I don't feel that image is that bad. And it's quite easy to fix using Basic applicable tools.
I'm guessing you have yet to run into that person expecting the impossible.......8>)
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07/15/2010 12:46:22 PM · #17 |
I've had 5 years of working in the hospitality industry. I have met lots of people that expect the impossible. I have a different perspective in that it was not my business. For me to tell someone, "No, that is not possible" was easier as it did not have an immediate impact on my wallet.
Photography is a hobby to me. That allows me the luxury of only pleasing myself. Portraits and weddings are probably the most steady paths to income for a photographer, but they just don't interest me. This means that I will forever be stuck with a very expensive hobby (and also stuck in a boring job). |
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07/15/2010 01:13:25 PM · #18 |
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07/15/2010 01:39:53 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by albc28:
Can we pull together to stop the photoshop madness? I'm not talking about photographers who like to photoshop the hell out of photos. If that is what you do, then by all means feel free to do so.
NO, I'm talking about consumers who assume that we can photoshop anything. I'm getting sick of hearing the "you can just photoshop it." No I can't. My job is to take a good photo and use photoshop to enhance the photo. Bad photos go in the trash. Photos are going to look very realistic and reflect what the camera sees. So constantly here "I have fat arms so you have to photoshop that", "my belly is big, but you can just photoshop it smaller", "I'm missing an arm but you can just photoshop me a new one", "the kids [dogs, cats,etc] won't sit still, but you should be able to photoshop them so they look like they are sitting".
How about instead of telling me to photoshop all this crap, you get in the gym or train your pets?
People need to stop assuming that we can photoshop everything. If I could do all that, what do I need them there for at all...I can just draw a photo and photoshop it to look like them. I don't know what it is...I'm guess i'm just starting to get annoyed with what people are telling me that I can photoshop....not asking me if i can, but telling me that I can do it. And when I tell them I can't they ignore it and tell me more crap that I can photoshop.
And this is not aimed at a particular person and threw out random scenarios so that it doesn't reflect any particular person or group of people. |
I always like to say in situations like these, "I'm a photographer, not a magician." |
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07/15/2010 01:40:45 PM · #20 |
| I somewhat agree with the OP, but it depends on how you define your work, is it pure photography where no PS that is considered good photography, or is it minimal PS that makes it good, is it moderate PS or is it extreme PS. Personally I think there is room for all of the above. I have seen awesome images in all stages of using Photoshop from minimal to extreme but one thing that is always necessary to make a great image is the up front camera work, without it the end result is never as good as when you start with a great image. Is your thing to create journalism or art, both are valid and appreciated by different audiences but still valid in my opinion. Their are a lot of photos out there with minimal editing that I love and would hang on my wall and there are a lot of composite images that have heavy PS that I would love to hang on my wall. Personally I think people should create the images they like and not worry about defining a cookie cutter definition that does not fit the wide range styles out there. |
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07/15/2010 02:02:48 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
So funny! I once did a glamour shoot where the client was wearing a stained white tank top when I showed up. I asked her to change and her answer "can't you just photoshop out the stains?" ROFL! |
haha!! happened to me too..i was scheduled to shoot a beauty shoot and the model was having a minor pimple breakout. I was trying to cancel the shoot but the model said... well, you guys already know what she said... lol |
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07/15/2010 06:00:32 PM · #22 |
| I dont mind taking away some acne problems, thats just something you cant avoid honestly. I dont do anything other than that or taking away stray hairs that got out of place. I tell my models that I wont work with them if they are going to complain about their looks. |
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07/15/2010 06:13:24 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Trumpeteer4:
Originally posted by albc28:
Can we pull together to stop the photoshop madness? I'm not talking about photographers who like to photoshop the hell out of photos. If that is what you do, then by all means feel free to do so.
NO, I'm talking about consumers who assume that we can photoshop anything. I'm getting sick of hearing the "you can just photoshop it." No I can't. My job is to take a good photo and use photoshop to enhance the photo. Bad photos go in the trash. Photos are going to look very realistic and reflect what the camera sees. So constantly here "I have fat arms so you have to photoshop that", "my belly is big, but you can just photoshop it smaller", "I'm missing an arm but you can just photoshop me a new one", "the kids [dogs, cats,etc] won't sit still, but you should be able to photoshop them so they look like they are sitting".
How about instead of telling me to photoshop all this crap, you get in the gym or train your pets?
People need to stop assuming that we can photoshop everything. If I could do all that, what do I need them there for at all...I can just draw a photo and photoshop it to look like them. I don't know what it is...I'm guess i'm just starting to get annoyed with what people are telling me that I can photoshop....not asking me if i can, but telling me that I can do it. And when I tell them I can't they ignore it and tell me more crap that I can photoshop.
And this is not aimed at a particular person and threw out random scenarios so that it doesn't reflect any particular person or group of people. |
I always like to say in situations like these, "I'm a photographer, not a magician." |
I like to say "Sure -- talented retouching artists get about $120/hour, and your picture shouldn't take more than two or three ..."
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07/15/2010 06:14:34 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by mgarsteck:
I dont mind taking away some acne problems, thats just something you cant avoid honestly. I dont do anything other than that or taking away stray hairs that got out of place. I tell my models that I wont work with them if they are going to complain about their looks. |
? And you're still working? (in America?)
ETA: :)
Message edited by author 2010-07-15 18:14:50. |
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07/15/2010 06:20:35 PM · #25 |
Photography begins and ends with the release of the shutter. Everything else is... well, something else.
Hope that helps. |
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