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04/23/2010 01:47:55 PM · #1 |
Hi all!
I'm new to the site -- I joined because a friend invited me to join her DPL team -- and I've noticed some discussion elsewhere about the challenges having lower average scores now that DPL Season 2 has started.
Of course, the first question to answer here is, is it actually true? From the comments I've seen from the SC, they don't think it is.
The second thing that occurs to me is that DPL probably attracts a lot of new users (I know that all but two of our team are new to DPC), and they may not realize that the culture here is that giving scores below a 4 is "rude" (or so it seems from what I've seen in the discussions). I certainly have been using the full 10-point scale, not knowing this.
Thirdly, someone else mentioned that challenges get a lot more entries during DPL, which influences people to use a broader range of the voting scale than they might have in a smaller challenge, where there aren't as many photos to distinguish between. That seems like a likely hypothesis to me.
Lastly, I wonder how many people know about the change in scoring for the second round of DPL. I certainly didn't until I looked at the forum thread announcing DPL Season 2, since the FAQ still refers to averaging the raw scores. The current season is looking at average *percentiles*. In other words, if there are people out there systematically voting low on everything, that will have no effect on how the DPL competition will come out, since it's your relative position to everyone else that counts. Sadly, that doesn't help the people dismayed by their overall DPC average score coming down, whether or not they're in the DPL.
Rowan |
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04/23/2010 02:02:31 PM · #2 |
I can only answer for myself.
I am participating in DPL, and this is the first time that I have done so. The voting, to me, seems to be particularly harsh since DPL started, but I am inclined to think that it is not deliberate.
I noticed that in the Balloons challenge, my own "voting average" fell slightly below my normal voting average. I was somewhat dismayed when I saw that, and I thought that I needed to go back over the challenge entries to make sure that I had voted fairly.
My normal vote pattern is to vote 100%, then go back over the entries in thumbnail form, and reevaluate. I generally find that I will reconsider at least 20-30 images, raising their score. I almost never drop a score at that point.
I finally decided that my voting average was lower simply because there were SO MANY images in the Balloon challenge. I do vote the entire range from 1 to 10, but 95% of my voting falls in the 4 to 10 range. |
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04/23/2010 02:04:54 PM · #3 |
Conjecture from the SC is that it's all the same.
Still would like to see proof in the form of two additional ratings on each challenge:
Average Score of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx
Average Vote Given of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx
If they are close the the overall average, then so be it. |
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04/23/2010 02:07:24 PM · #4 |
I mean I have always been of the mind that because the number of entries and/or other challenge parameters are constantly changing, I don't think absolute score is a good measure of anything. For me its all about relative placement in the pack.
On the note of 4's being rude. Don't alter the way you vote just because there are people in the forums trying to force some kind of moral framework/voting etiquette. Use the whole scale, vote as you see fit... |
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04/23/2010 02:09:55 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Average Score of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx
Average Vote Given of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx |
Wouldn't the test be to compare the average votes of DPL and non-DPL voters? The scores of DPL participants are irrelevant. |
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04/23/2010 02:11:27 PM · #6 |
Well my voting average is UP on these challenges. What does concern me is the amount of votes being cast, I know there is plenty of time left for people to vote but it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that there have been less votes cast over the last 6 months.
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04/23/2010 02:14:38 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Sevlow:
Well my voting average is UP on these challenges. What does concern me is the amount of votes being cast, I know there is plenty of time left for people to vote but it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that there have been less votes cast over the last 6 months. |
Well that may be because of the record no. of entries |
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04/23/2010 02:15:11 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Conjecture from the SC is that it's all the same.
Still would like to see proof in the form of two additional ratings on each challenge:
Average Score of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx
Average Vote Given of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx
If they are close the the overall average, then so be it. |
I'm not sure the first is relevant: one would expect most of the "better", higher-scoring DPC photographers to be on DPL teams: certainly there are quite a few heavy hitters who have come out of retirement for this season. So one would expect the DPL average to be higher than the challenge average, I think. Plus, it's irrelevant because nobody knows WHO created the images they are voting on, during the voting.
The second one might be more relevant, but only on an individual basis: that is, if MY average score given drops considerably below my historical average score given, that might mean something. But, on the other hand, historically I have given relatively low average scores on some challenges and relatively high average scores on others, so I'd think this data would only be meaningful over the course of the entire season, not within an individual challenge.
Which is probably what you meant anyway?
R.
Message edited by author 2010-04-23 14:18:53. |
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04/23/2010 02:17:34 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by HawkeyeLonewolf:
Average Score of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx
Average Vote Given of DPL Competitors: x.xxxx |
Wouldn't the test be to compare the average votes of DPL and non-DPL voters? The scores of DPL participants are irrelevant. |
That's what he's asking for: how do the average scores received of DPL players compare with those of non-DPL, and ditto for scores given... "If they are close the the overall average, then so be it."
R. |
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04/23/2010 02:22:31 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by manish:
Originally posted by Sevlow:
Well my voting average is UP on these challenges. What does concern me is the amount of votes being cast, I know there is plenty of time left for people to vote but it seems to me, and I could be wrong, that there have been less votes cast over the last 6 months. |
Well that may be because of the record no. of entries |
Nah, we used to have more people casting more votes, dont think it is a dpl thing at all! Go look at the older challenges
These stats from the Free Study IX back in 2005
Voting Dates: Dec 1 2005 - Dec 7 2005
Submissions: 513
Disqualifications: 6
Votes: 144,059
Comments: 6,481
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Free study 2010-03
Voting Dates:
Apr 1 2010 - Apr 7 2010
Submissions: 347
Disqualifications: 4
Votes: 49,782
Comments: 3,246
Average Score: 5.62378
Highest Score: 7.6667
Median Score: 5.5979
Lowest Score: 3.9924
!!
To OP > apologies for hijacking your thread!
Message edited by author 2010-04-23 14:29:36. |
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04/23/2010 02:26:08 PM · #11 |
I vote yes. I think scores for average and below average pictures have dropped. My only data for this is the fact that both of my scores are in the bottom 20% of my scores compared to the other 132 challenges that I've entered. While they are not stellar photos, by any means, I also believe that they're better than their current scores.
I, however, do not believe that it's tactical voting. I believe that there are more quality pictures and that's lowering the scores of the average and below average pictures.
Have you noticed that if you enter a picture in a challenge and it does well, and then enter something similar in free study that it can do up to .5 lower? I think it's the same phenomenon. I'm likening it to free study voting.
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04/23/2010 02:26:58 PM · #12 |
Voting Dates: Dec 1 2005 - Dec 7 2005
Submissions: 513
Disqualifications: 6
Votes: 144,059
Comments: 6,481
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Free study 2010-03
Voting Dates:
Apr 1 2010 - Apr 7 2010
Submissions: 347
Disqualifications: 4
Votes: 49,782
Comments: 3,246
Wow, that's quite the difference! Well, hopefully the DPL will help bring the number of votes up, since it has probably attracted a bunch of new people to DPC. I know I'll probably keep looking at and posting to challenges even after the season is over. Well, assuming I'm not disillusioned by a miserable finish. ;-)
Rowan |
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04/23/2010 02:28:00 PM · #13 |
| Regardless of the DPL causing the votes to be lower or not, it certainly makes me want to think harder and try harder to get a better photo next round. I welcome sometimes the harsher votes. It might piss me off at first, but afterwards it makes me realize what I could have improved. Not saying this is always the case, but certainly for the balloon one it is. |
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04/23/2010 02:30:56 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Have you noticed that if you enter a picture in a challenge and it does well, and then enter something similar in free study that it can do up to .5 lower? I think it's the same phenomenon. I'm likening it to free study voting. |
Hm...I know that when I'm voting in a themed challenge, part of the overall score in my head is related to how well the picture fits the theme. In other words, a picture that might be a 7 in and of itself, but doesn't fit the theme, might end up a 5 or 6, and conversely, one that's a 5 but is a nice expression of the theme might get boosted to 6 or 7. In a free study, there are no "bonus" points for expressing the theme, so I can see how a picture that did well in a themed challenge might not do as well in a free study.
Rowan |
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04/23/2010 02:31:04 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:
Regardless of the DPL causing the votes to be lower or not, it certainly makes me want to think harder and try harder to get a better photo next round. I welcome sometimes the harsher votes. It might piss me off at first, but afterwards it makes me realize what I could have improved. Not saying this is always the case, but certainly for the balloon one it is. |
I agree, normally I would get lazy and not shoot but now because I am in a team I am motivated!
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04/23/2010 04:54:18 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by mzrowan:
Hm...I know that when I'm voting in a themed challenge, part of the overall score in my head is related to how well the picture fits the theme. In other words, a picture that might be a 7 in and of itself, but doesn't fit the theme, might end up a 5 or 6, and conversely, one that's a 5 but is a nice expression of the theme might get boosted to 6 or 7. In a free study, there are no "bonus" points for expressing the theme, so I can see how a picture that did well in a themed challenge might not do as well in a free study.
Rowan |
Freestudies are normally more harsh. It's more harsh because people have a ton of time to spend and are really able to get that killer shot. There are also more entries, so people are more critical of the winners. It's sooo much easier to place high in challenges with low amounts of entries. And, as you said, there are no constraints for subject matter.
Don't let people complaining about getting low votes influence your voting. It's ridiculous that everybody still persists in externalizing the causes of their low scores. Not everybody likes your photo. Big deal. Do better next time and avoid the heartache? Give the vote you think the shot warrants. There's a reason it's annomymous. If people really can't accept their average, they need to grow up. Competition is fun, and when it isn't, you can learn something from it. Let's stop pretending we should all win, every time, shall we?
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04/23/2010 05:14:28 PM · #17 |
Common sense suggestion:
If (and it's a big IF) users are voting lower in challenges out of FEAR of voting a "10" on an image from a team in direct head-to-head competition with them, then simply block those opposing team images from appearing in the voting window, in the same way teammates' images are blocked. Might cause a normalization, or at least, reduce suspicion of strategic voting. |
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04/23/2010 07:51:08 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Common sense suggestion:
If (and it's a big IF) users are voting lower in challenges out of FEAR of voting a "10" on an image from a team in direct head-to-head competition with them, then simply block those opposing team images from appearing in the voting window, in the same way teammates' images are blocked. Might cause a normalization, or at least, reduce suspicion of strategic voting. |
That's a DAMN good idea. |
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04/23/2010 09:00:42 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by hahn23:
Common sense suggestion:
If (and it's a big IF) users are voting lower in challenges out of FEAR of voting a "10" on an image from a team in direct head-to-head competition with them, then simply block those opposing team images from appearing in the voting window, in the same way teammates' images are blocked. Might cause a normalization, or at least, reduce suspicion of strategic voting. |
That's a DAMN good idea. |
By doing that you would be able to identify an opposing teams photos (by seeing the one that weren't there when you are logged in) and then you might end up with teams collaborating to vote down other teams, e.g. if your team votes down our opponents scores, then we will vote down your teams opponents scores. |
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04/23/2010 09:05:57 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by hahn23:
Common sense suggestion:
If (and it's a big IF) users are voting lower in challenges out of FEAR of voting a "10" on an image from a team in direct head-to-head competition with them, then simply block those opposing team images from appearing in the voting window, in the same way teammates' images are blocked. Might cause a normalization, or at least, reduce suspicion of strategic voting. |
That's a DAMN good idea. |
By doing that you would be able to identify an opposing teams photos (by seeing the one that weren't there when you are logged in) and then you might end up with teams collaborating to vote down other teams, e.g. if your team votes down our opponents scores, then we will vote down your teams opponents scores. |
Well you could keep them in but afterwards those votes get scrubbed.
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04/23/2010 09:13:04 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Common sense suggestion:
If (and it's a big IF) users are voting lower in challenges out of FEAR of voting a "10" on an image from a team in direct head-to-head competition with them, then simply block those opposing team images from appearing in the voting window, in the same way teammates' images are blocked. Might cause a normalization, or at least, reduce suspicion of strategic voting. |
It's an "ok" theory, but really, if someone is "worried" about voting the other team's photos up, they're probably not going to vote many very high...the way to do well in the DPL is have your image place higher %-wise. Doesn't matter whose entries being voted, they all impact the outcome. |
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04/23/2010 09:25:15 PM · #22 |
We're not playing for sheep stations people.
I think it is probable that a few people playing in the dpl will try to sway the votes to give themselves a boost however there are so many people voting that I don't think the few who try this will have any effect. I think that maybe the reason the average and bellow average shots are scoring lower is because quite a few "good" photographers have returned to play dpl, this does two things 1) it raises the standard of images in the challenge and many people vote by comparing images. An average image will score lower next to a great image when voted on by someone who uses this method to score. and 2) The "good" returning photographers probably vote lower on average/bellow average shots. People rarely think their own shot is worth a 10 so if you have a photographer who's image is really good and he/she feels it's worth a 7 or 8 then he/she will probably vote an average image a 4 or 5.
That's my theory anyway.
Bottom line is it doesn't really matter. I don't think there are too many people who would try and "cheat" and for those that do they will probably get caught out.
So stop worrying and try to lift your standards and improve your score, that is what this place is all about after all, learning and improving.
Sarah |
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04/23/2010 09:26:10 PM · #23 |
| I think the switch to percentile scoring will help with the perception that DPL lowers scores. I've been having a great time going through voting on the challenges....so many great images!! |
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04/23/2010 11:44:06 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by Covert_Oddity:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by hahn23:
Common sense suggestion:
If (and it's a big IF) users are voting lower in challenges out of FEAR of voting a "10" on an image from a team in direct head-to-head competition with them, then simply block those opposing team images from appearing in the voting window, in the same way teammates' images are blocked. Might cause a normalization, or at least, reduce suspicion of strategic voting. |
That's a DAMN good idea. |
By doing that you would be able to identify an opposing teams photos (by seeing the one that weren't there when you are logged in) and then you might end up with teams collaborating to vote down other teams, e.g. if your team votes down our opponents scores, then we will vote down your teams opponents scores. |
Well you could keep them in but afterwards those votes get scrubbed. |
Even better idea.. I like anything that removes an incentive to be unfair (I generally don't trust in the morality of others, especially not when it comes to something that is to some people precious - things like diamonds, gold, cocaine, and DPC ribbons)
ETA: OH OH, sorry, I forgot to add winning elections, that's a biggie, or converting someone to a different religion..
Message edited by author 2010-04-23 23:44:47. |
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04/25/2011 10:26:42 PM · #25 |
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