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05/04/2010 03:37:51 PM · #176
@kirbic and zeuszen

The security rationale makes sense for Apple and for the average user but as a power user and developer it sucks.
05/04/2010 04:07:07 PM · #177
Originally posted by yanko:

@kirbic and zeuszen

The security rationale makes sense for Apple and for the average user but as a power user and developer it sucks.


Yes, I hear you, but there's more to it than security. Apps written with third-party tools do not work as well and can turn out pot-ugly, especially in the context of an otherwise beautiful OS. This should be highly undesirable, for anyone involved, including developers, as it would jeopardize everything...
05/04/2010 04:54:41 PM · #178
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by yanko:

@kirbic and zeuszen

The security rationale makes sense for Apple and for the average user but as a power user and developer it sucks.


Yes, I hear you, but there's more to it than security. Apps written with third-party tools do not work as well and can turn out pot-ugly, especially in the context of an otherwise beautiful OS. This should be highly undesirable, for anyone involved, including developers, as it would jeopardize everything...


Man, I bet Microsoft could have used you back when they were facing their anti-trust lawsuits. I think the only reason Apple isn't facing the same thing is their market share. But it will get there at some point.
05/04/2010 05:02:25 PM · #179
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by yanko:

@kirbic and zeuszen

The security rationale makes sense for Apple and for the average user but as a power user and developer it sucks.


Yes, I hear you, but there's more to it than security. Apps written with third-party tools do not work as well and can turn out pot-ugly, especially in the context of an otherwise beautiful OS. This should be highly undesirable, for anyone involved, including developers, as it would jeopardize everything...


Man, I bet Microsoft could have used you back when they were facing their anti-trust lawsuits. I think the only reason Apple isn't facing the same thing is their market share. But it will get there at some point.


Actually they have the market share with the iPod/iPhone/iPad and the the Fed is looking into a formal invetigation around the iAd service.

05/04/2010 05:26:13 PM · #180
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...Man, I bet Microsoft could have used you back when they were facing their anti-trust lawsuits...


I have yet to see one product made by MS that would inspire any enthusiasm. After spending two decades uninstalling all kinds of bloatware and dll files from Macs, I doubt I'd be suited to the purpose.
05/04/2010 05:40:49 PM · #181
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...Man, I bet Microsoft could have used you back when they were facing their anti-trust lawsuits...

I have yet to see one product made by MS that would inspire any enthusiasm. After spending two decades uninstalling all kinds of bloatware and dll files from Macs, I doubt I'd be suited to the purpose.

Regardless of things that inspire you, I believe Jason's point is that your sugar-coated defense of Apple's monopolistic practices was rather charming. As my friend put it, it's easy to maintain user experience and security when you're not willing to play nice with anybody else.
05/04/2010 05:56:58 PM · #182
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by yanko:

@kirbic and zeuszen

The security rationale makes sense for Apple and for the average user but as a power user and developer it sucks.


Yes, I hear you, but there's more to it than security. Apps written with third-party tools do not work as well and can turn out pot-ugly, especially in the context of an otherwise beautiful OS. This should be highly undesirable, for anyone involved, including developers, as it would jeopardize everything...


You make it sound like it's a work of art that only the the Dos Equis guy can touch. :P Seriously, I do get your points. I'm just more of a freedom guy. Don't lock everything up because of the potential of a few bad apples. Cue the groans.
05/04/2010 05:57:40 PM · #183
Originally posted by smurfguy:

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...Man, I bet Microsoft could have used you back when they were facing their anti-trust lawsuits...

I have yet to see one product made by MS that would inspire any enthusiasm. After spending two decades uninstalling all kinds of bloatware and dll files from Macs, I doubt I'd be suited to the purpose.

Regardless of things that inspire you, I believe Jason's point is that your sugar-coated defense of Apple's monopolistic practices was rather charming. As my friend put it, it's easy to maintain user experience and security when you're not willing to play nice with anybody else.


Monopolistic practices? please.
05/04/2010 05:58:02 PM · #184
Originally posted by smurfguy:

...Regardless of things that inspire you, I believe Jason's point is that your sugar-coated defense of Apple's monopolistic practices was rather charming. As my friend put it, it's easy to maintain user experience and security when you're not willing to play nice with anybody else.


Fair enough, and I have acknowledged and share the concerns voiced here (and thus am not inclined to defend monopolistic practices), but your analogy confuses core and shell.

I (and many others) dislike shoddy products. I do not, as a rule, spend money on them.
05/04/2010 06:56:34 PM · #185
My basic point is that Microsoft, Apple, Google...they are all wolves in sheep's clothing. MSFT's wolf was revealed a bit earlier than the others, but I fully believe that teeth and fangs lurk beneath the others as well.

I just cheer for Joe consumer.
05/04/2010 06:58:13 PM · #186
so for all the 24 viewers out there, was that an ipad on yesterdays episode?
05/04/2010 07:02:58 PM · #187
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My basic point is that Microsoft, Apple, Google...they are all wolves in sheep's clothing. MSFT's wolf was revealed a bit earlier than the others, but I fully believe that teeth and fangs lurk beneath the others as well.

I just cheer for Joe consumer.


This is an example of what I just don't get. Could anybody imagine this being said about MSFT 10 years ago?

excerpt from here
My take: It is easy to paint Steve Jobs as the evil menace here. It's easy to say Apple gets away with control tactics that Microsoft never tried, even in its most dominating moments. And those things may be true.

But, it is also true that forcing developers to build Apple-specific applications is the best way for Apple to move its platform forward. It allows Apple to release new technologies, decide how they will be used and by whom, and limit the ability of those same apps to appear on other companies' devices.

I don't see anything wrong with that.

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 19:03:59.
05/04/2010 07:22:30 PM · #188
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My basic point is that Microsoft, Apple, Google...they are all wolves in sheep's clothing. MSFT's wolf was revealed a bit earlier than the others, but I fully believe that teeth and fangs lurk beneath the others as well.

I just cheer for Joe consumer.


This is an example of what I just don't get. Could anybody imagine this being said about MSFT 10 years ago?

excerpt from here
My take: It is easy to paint Steve Jobs as the evil menace here. It's easy to say Apple gets away with control tactics that Microsoft never tried, even in its most dominating moments. And those things may be true.

But, it is also true that forcing developers to build Apple-specific applications is the best way for Apple to move its platform forward. It allows Apple to release new technologies, decide how they will be used and by whom, and limit the ability of those same apps to appear on other companies' devices.

I don't see anything wrong with that.


You're not talking the same game or sport here. Apple makes hardware, MSFT makes software.

MSFT abused their monopoly position to try to corner a market, namely the web browser. They embedded IE into a ubiquitous operating system so much that it could not be replaced with a competing product.

There's nothing illegal about being a monopoly, what's illegal is to abuse that monopoly position.

Does this make sense? "I want to run Apple software on my Windows OS, why does MS have such a closed system that I can't run the software of my choice?"

So why should Apple be forced to run software they don't want to? The market will decide. There are plenty of alternatives to the iPod/iPhone out there.

05/04/2010 07:23:09 PM · #189
"However, despite the opportunities offered by HTML5, it reamins a draft specification, and even though many publishers and vendors are supporting it already, itís not expected to reach full maturity for another year or two."

"Until then at least, Flash remains the dominant way to deliver audio, video and animation on the web. Itís been around far too long to simply be replaced overnight, no matter how severe of a public thrashing itís currently enduring."


From this article:
Wired WebMonkey Article

I post this because the article is very informative and will dispel many of the misinformation thrown around in this thread. The bottom line is that although Flash may be dieing it is not yet dead. It is supported by other mobile devices, like Android. In the meantime Apple gives its customers a less than fulfilling experience on its mobile devices by not supporting Flash. It is not true that you only get ads from Flash. I have a Touch and I run into problems all the time because it does not support flash.

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 19:39:53.
05/04/2010 07:48:49 PM · #190
Originally posted by jbsmithana:

"However, despite the opportunities offered by HTML5, it reamins a draft specification, and even though many publishers and vendors are supporting it already, itís not expected to reach full maturity for another year or two."

"Until then at least, Flash remains the dominant way to deliver audio, video and animation on the web. Itís been around far too long to simply be replaced overnight, no matter how severe of a public thrashing itís currently enduring."


From this article:
Wired WebMonkey Article

I post this because the article is very informative and will dispel many of the misinformation thrown around in this thread. The bottom line is that although Flash may be dieing it is not yet dead. It is supported by other mobile devices, like Android. In the meantime Apple gives its customers a less than fulfilling experience on its mobile devices by not supporting Flash. It is not true that you only get ads from Flash. I have a Touch and I run into problems all the time because it does not support flash.


He does not speak for all Apple customers. I for one do not miss Flash on my mobile devices at all.

Show us an Andorid phone available right now that runs the full version of Flash (not Flash Lite) even the brand new Driod Incredible won't run Flash.

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 20:02:37.
05/04/2010 08:20:10 PM · #191
Originally posted by scarbrd:

So why should Apple be forced to run software they don't want to? The market will decide. There are plenty of alternatives to the iPod/iPhone out there.


But then when Apple says, hey, if you want to sell your app on the iPhone you can't sell it on another platform. That's when they start throwing their weight around and using their market dominance. Who knows what going on behind the scenes of iTunes for example?

I don't trust them any further than I can throw 'em.
05/04/2010 09:12:50 PM · #192
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

So why should Apple be forced to run software they don't want to? The market will decide. There are plenty of alternatives to the iPod/iPhone out there.


But then when Apple says, hey, if you want to sell your app on the iPhone you can't sell it on another platform. That's when they start throwing their weight around and using their market dominance. Who knows what going on behind the scenes of iTunes for example?

I don't trust them any further than I can throw 'em.


But then app won't work on any other platform. Are you saying developers should be able to use one development environment (Flash) and deploy to multiple platforms? That's what the Flash developers are complaining about. They have a point But can't Apple, as the owner of the platform, insist on a certain level of quality? Apple would gladly run Flash if it performed better and didn't crash the OS. But Adobe don't want to make the effort, and have said as much. That's on them.

It cracks me up that you don't hold MS to near the standard you hold Apple. You never notice any of he proprietary crap MS pulls because you happily have no other experience on any other platform. Try running ActiveX controls and any browser besides IE. Try removing IE or if you get annoyed by IE8 try downgrading to IE7. You can't. MS forbids it on their platform.

BTW - I can't put a Chevy engine in my Accura either. Damn them.
05/04/2010 09:21:35 PM · #193
Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My basic point is that Microsoft, Apple, Google...they are all wolves in sheep's clothing. MSFT's wolf was revealed a bit earlier than the others, but I fully believe that teeth and fangs lurk beneath the others as well.

I just cheer for Joe consumer.


This is an example of what I just don't get. Could anybody imagine this being said about MSFT 10 years ago?

excerpt from here
My take: It is easy to paint Steve Jobs as the evil menace here. It's easy to say Apple gets away with control tactics that Microsoft never tried, even in its most dominating moments. And those things may be true.

But, it is also true that forcing developers to build Apple-specific applications is the best way for Apple to move its platform forward. It allows Apple to release new technologies, decide how they will be used and by whom, and limit the ability of those same apps to appear on other companies' devices.

I don't see anything wrong with that.


You're not talking the same game or sport here. Apple makes hardware, MSFT makes software...


Well, Apple makes both soft- and hardware.
05/04/2010 09:33:49 PM · #194
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

My basic point is that Microsoft, Apple, Google...they are all wolves in sheep's clothing. MSFT's wolf was revealed a bit earlier than the others, but I fully believe that teeth and fangs lurk beneath the others as well.

I just cheer for Joe consumer.


This is an example of what I just don't get. Could anybody imagine this being said about MSFT 10 years ago?

excerpt from here
My take: It is easy to paint Steve Jobs as the evil menace here. It's easy to say Apple gets away with control tactics that Microsoft never tried, even in its most dominating moments. And those things may be true.

But, it is also true that forcing developers to build Apple-specific applications is the best way for Apple to move its platform forward. It allows Apple to release new technologies, decide how they will be used and by whom, and limit the ability of those same apps to appear on other companies' devices.

I don't see anything wrong with that.


You're not talking the same game or sport here. Apple makes hardware, MSFT makes software...


Well, Apple makes both soft- and hardware.


True, but at their core they are a hardware company. They produce the software as an agent to sell the hardware. In fact, you can run Windows on the Mac, native or virtual. Run OS X on a Dell or HP? No can do.
05/04/2010 09:36:07 PM · #195
Originally posted by scarbrd:

...True, but at their core they are a hardware company. They produce the software as an agent to sell the hardware. In fact, you can run Windows on the Mac, native or virtual. Run OS X on a Dell or HP? No can do.


Yet, it is the OS that makes the Mac a Mac.

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 21:37:11.
05/04/2010 09:41:40 PM · #196
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by scarbrd:

...True, but at their core they are a hardware company. They produce the software as an agent to sell the hardware. In fact, you can run Windows on the Mac, native or virtual. Run OS X on a Dell or HP? No can do.


Yet, it is the OS that makes the Mac a Mac.


I agree completely. Makes it all the more compelling to purchase their hardware.
05/04/2010 10:46:29 PM · #197
Oh, don't think I don't hate that about MS too. I hate it when you load something like Windows Media Player and it wants to hijack every function it can. Of course Quicktime does the same. I don't think MS is better than Apple at all. Far from. I am equally suspicious of the motives of both. But Microsoft is already viewed as the Evil Empire. Apple still somehow has fanboys, so I spend more time vocalizing about Apple because everybody already knows about Microsoft...

Message edited by author 2010-05-04 22:47:13.
05/04/2010 11:05:41 PM · #198
Yes, yes, this is all well and good, but I want more info about the iPad!! As interesting as all the Mac vs. PC stuff is...
Should I get a 3G or wi-fi. Do you need more memory or is 16 GB good enough? Would you spend money on it at all now that you've had it for a while? More!
05/04/2010 11:16:45 PM · #199
I must be the odd man out in this instance.

I have no iPad, nor do I have the faintest amount of interest in getting one. I have no idea what it is that they do, but seriously doubt it would impact my life in the least.

I am surrounded by all kinds of gizmos at work and already own a bevy of electronic doodads that I don't turn on anymore as they usurped simply too much of the quality of life I have managed to enjoy in my twilight years.

Have fun with your toys folks, but me I still love the sounds of birds in the forest, children laughing and listening to the chirping of crickets and the sounds of frogs voicing their mating songs on warm spring nights.

...and by the time these items are made available to non USA residents, they will have already have become obsolete in any event. :O)

Ray
05/04/2010 11:19:52 PM · #200
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Have fun with your toys folks, but me I still love the sounds of birds in the forest, children laughing and listening to the chirping of crickets and the sounds of frogs voicing their mating songs on warm spring nights.


I've got an app for that. Haha.

I don't even have a phone with a keyboard. When people text me I painfully triple tap a four word reply back over two to three minutes. Then they reply to that and I start ripping my hair out. :P
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