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06/05/2004 01:04:53 AM · #1
Ok, I was able to get out to the track where they were practicing. I was not given access on the track during practice, so I was still shooting from the sidelines. I found that at ISO 1600 I still had a difficult time getting a fast enough shutter in TV or AV mode. In full manual I could raise my shutter, but that underexposed the picture.

One thing I did notice... with the 420EX attached, I got a bit faster of a shutter, naturally. There were a few spots where I had decent light, but just needed more speed. So, in those, I pointed the flash head up and that seemed to work pretty well. It was almost as if I was 'tricking' the camera.

Here's a few test shots. The only thing I did was crop to aspect ratio, resize, levels, and slight boost in contrast. I couldn't sharpen because that brought out the noise of using ISO 1600 too much. These are all using f/2.8 at 100mm.

Any other ideas?
06/05/2004 01:13:17 AM · #2
The composition looks good. One suggestion is to shoot on 400 ISO and use the flash to help with the light. pop off a few test shots with the flash at different exposure compensations. I have used this shooting night football and weddings...I haven't quite figured it out for football yet, still working on that, but at a wedding reception minus 1 to 2 thirds seems to work very well.
06/05/2004 10:50:06 AM · #3
Thanks Sandi, any other advice?

This is gonna be one helluva tough 'first formal job'. If nothing else, we've got a good looking booth put together! :-)

06/05/2004 10:55:40 AM · #4
Hey Tina! I think the shots look great. Granted there is a small amount of noise, but hey, they still look really good to me. The composition is wonderful! You captured the feel very nicely. LOL, that looks like the noise I get on ISO 200! Good luck!
06/05/2004 11:12:03 AM · #5
Originally posted by trying2bstill:

The composition looks good. One suggestion is to shoot on 400 ISO and use the flash to help with the light. pop off a few test shots with the flash at different exposure compensations. I have used this shooting night football and weddings...I haven't quite figured it out for football yet, still working on that, but at a wedding reception minus 1 to 2 thirds seems to work very well.


I'm bad, I haven't read the directions to the 420EX and I'll have to see if I can dig them up, but I didn't think you could change the exposure compensations on that unit?
06/05/2004 11:22:20 AM · #6
Originally posted by tfaust:

This is gonna be one helluva tough 'first formal job'.

I agree; what you are trying to do is incredibly challenging. Night action photography is extremely difficult. (Maybe that's why the person who normally shoots at the track decided to skip this night race? =)

One thing I don't understand is your comments about your flash and "fooling the camera". The first thing to remember is that with the flash on, the fastest shutter speed you're going to be able to use is 1/200, unless you have "FP sync" enabled on the 420EX (not recommended in this situation since it reduces flash output power).

If it was me, I would set my ISO to 1600, go to manual mode, set my shutter speed somewhere between 1/30th and 1/200th (depending on how much blur you want/can tolerate), aperture to 2.8 and shoot with the flash aimed straight at the bikes, no diffuser, just full power straight ahead so as much of the flash goes towards the bikes as possible. This config will cause the 420EX and the E-TTL algorithms to try and output as much power as necessary to get a decently exposed picture. If you are still getting underexposed shots (and therefore long recycle times on the 420EX because it dumped a full-power flash) in this configuration, then you are pretty much at the limits of your equipment. Options at that point include more and higher-powered strobes (even indoor pro and college sports arenas, although generally well lit, use studio strobes mounted above the field/court/ice for use by photographers on the field/court/ice with wireless triggers) or faster lenses, like the 85/1.2L (which of courses reduces your depth-of-field).

Note that you do not want to use Av mode with the flash in this situation, because in Av, the camera meters for an "ambient lighting" exposure and uses the flash just for fill. You will end up with really slow shutter speeds.

Finally, have you tried printing any of your ISO 1600 shots at 8x10 sizes? Are you satisfied with the "quality"? Do you think they create "saleable" images?

Message edited by author 2004-06-05 11:50:30.
06/05/2004 11:55:56 AM · #7
Eddy - thank you so much for this incredibly helpful reply.

I'm sure the other photographer didn't come in part due to the difficulty of night action shots... but I've heard from a few people that he doesn't like coming out to this track because it's so far for him to drive; it's about 1.5 to 2 hours. With night races it wouldn't get him home until the wee early hours of the morning. The gal that called and asked me to shoot tonight said she doesn't think he'll be coming out to that track much longer.

I'm going to check with the riders and make sure they won't be distracted by a flash going off at the worst possible moment. I'd hate to cause a crash, that happens enough without me! :-) That was in part why I wasn't pointing it at them last night, but instead just using it to boost my shutter speed.

One good thing - there will be about 2-3 hours of being able to shoot in daylight. Race practice starts at 4pm, racing begins at 5:30 and the sun sets around 7:30. If that's all I get in saleable images, so be it.

I do have one other trick in my bag, it won't help a lot, but I have my 50mm f/1.8 and if I can get close enough to the riders that might help with shutter speeds.

I did take your advice and print an 8x10 from last night's photos. It wasn't bad... granted not near as good as the daylight ones. The noise wasn't as noticeable at the 'normal viewing distance' of a photo.

Also, when she called and asked if I would do this, I told her that after dark it might be hard to get good photos.

Thanks again Eddy - your advice was most helpful.


Message edited by author 2004-06-05 11:57:44.
06/05/2004 12:08:05 PM · #8
You're welcome! Glad to hear that you'll get there while there is still daylight, that's good!

Find out about the flash issue, you're right that you don't want it to be "an issue". If you do have to avoid using a flash and decide to shoot in manual mode anyway (which I'd recommend so the metering in your camera isn't fooled by the track lights, glare, reflections, etc.), be sure to check your exposures as the light changes during the twilight/sunset hours; you'll have to make adjustments frequently until the sun is pretty much gone.

In any event... good luck!!!
06/05/2004 12:16:51 PM · #9
Originally posted by EddyG:

The first thing to remember is that with the flash on, the fastest shutter speed you're going to be able to use is 1/200, unless you have "FP sync" enabled on the 420EX (not recommended in this situation since it reduces flash output power).

Is this due to the 300D or the 420EX? Only reason I ask is that sneaky 300D firmware supposedly supports FEC.

Originally posted by EddyG:

85/1.2L (which of courses reduces your depth-of-field).

Just as a note - I was looking at the 85/1.2 for sports, but according to Fred Miranda it's very slow at focusing (being a portrait lens and all), so I avoided it.
06/05/2004 12:48:49 PM · #10
Paul:

The 1/200th shutter speed is the maximum "cross-sync speed" of the Canon prosumer level DSLR's and is unrealted to Flash Exposure Compensation. It is somewhat complicated to explain, but a focal plane shutter works by having two curtains -- a front curtain and a rear curtain. At anything faster than 1/200th of second, only part of the sensor is ever exposed, because the second curtain starts moving before the first curtain has traversed the entire height (or width, depending if it is a vertical or horizontal design) of the sensor (or film). So if you were to fire a flash while using a shutter speed over 1/200th of a second, the flash would only be exposed to the sensor between the "slit" of the first and second curtain. The faster the shutter speed, the sooner the second curtain starts moving over the sensor after the first curtain, and the narrower the slit is. The maximum cross-sync speed is the fastest shutter speed at which the first curtain has completely exposed the sensor and the second curtain has not started moving. It is at that precise instant that the flash is triggered by the camera. (Unless your camera/flash is set to "second curtain sync", in which case it waits until just before the second curtain starts moving to fire the flash.)

Canon's FP sync feature works around this by firing multiple flashes in sync with the motion of the front and rear curtains. Because it requires multiple flashes, the power is reduced. But at least it is an option, and is great for putting catchlights in outdoor portraits when you have higher shutter speeds. Our Nikon friends don't have that feature on their flashes (unless you have a D2H, I believe). =]

Hope that explanation makes sense? A quick google search turned up this link which may explain it better than I did.

And you're right about 85/1.2L. But it is still a sweet lens. (My dream sports lens is Canon's discontinued 200mm/1.8L... I keep hoping they'll bring it back with IS. =)

Message edited by author 2004-06-05 12:59:21.
06/05/2004 01:06:00 PM · #11
Originally posted by EddyG:

Hope that explanation makes sense? ... And you're right about 85/1.2L. But it is still a sweet lens. (My dream sports lens is Canon's discontinued 200mm/1.8L... I keep hoping they'll bring it back with IS. =)

Yep - thanks for the explaination.

There's always the 85/1.8, which has almost as pleasing an amount of glass as the 1.2. I suspect you may get your wish about a 200/1.8 though, with Nikkor's new 200/2..
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