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01/31/2010 06:30:23 PM · #26
I guess some of my semi-abstract stuff would fit nicely. I would define it as something I would want to frame and hang on my wall. Pretty broad topic that could be fun.
01/31/2010 06:47:05 PM · #27
Regarding "Fine Art" with no description:

It's interesting, because not all that long ago the concept "fine art" caused people to think of figurative work, dramatically rendered, usually allegorical/religious in theme. Still lifes, for example, were not considered "fine art". When the impressionists came along, the fauves, the surrealists, the art world refused to take them seriously. The cubists? hah! Abstract expressionism, a la Pollock, or Motherwell, say? Not art! My kid could do that! The color field painters, Gene Davis and his ilk? Interior design, not art!

Never mind that all these sell for six figures or more now and hang in the great museums of the world...

I bet if you just call it "fine art", you're gonna get... ah the heck with it :-) Even if you try to define it, 75% of the voters don't read the descriptions...

This would be a wonderful challenge. Be nice if the brown went to a perfectly-executed, sharp-as-a-tack, water droplet or refracted macro or robber fly or whatever might ordinarily have won. but that would never happen.

R,
01/31/2010 07:26:58 PM · #28
Sounds like a free study to me. I like the idea, but since it really can't be defined, there should be no DNMCs.
01/31/2010 07:46:20 PM · #29
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Regarding "Fine Art" with no description:

This would be a wonderful challenge. Be nice if the brown went to a perfectly-executed, sharp-as-a-tack, water droplet or refracted macro or robber fly or whatever might ordinarily have won. but that would never happen.

R,


IMHO the best image never wins so, it would be tough for me to get hung up on that now. I like my description because at best, it's a little push but nothing to box people in any direction and not definition in itself. I do think most of us Can identify or generally spot something that's commercial and I do think those entries will quickly get their due reward by enough of a majority BUT I don't think it's ground that's been well defined by the site, as of yet and I assure you people won't know where to look to easily copy a winner, while doing research.

Looking at Waterdrops and Bug Macro's are more akin to watching someone take batting practice or doing their scales on a musical instrument...checking over someones math homework than they are to fine art...however you define it. They might not Brown but they'll most likely place in reverse order to the usual. Hey and I don't view this in any way as a call to knock those images down BUT seeing people rally against them, for me, would honestly be a breath of fresh air BUT again, NOT the point.

Originally posted by JuliBoc:

Sounds like a free study to me. I like the idea, but since it really can't be defined, there should be no DNMCs.


I wouldn't call it a Free Study because probably none of the Top 20 in the Best of 2009 or many of the Free Studies would really qualify....even by the widest, widest interpretation of what FA is. I'm also sure there might be plenty of images that could be DNMC but based on how people define FA for themselves OR what they believe it NOT to be.

I'm sure some people will argue til their blue in the face that this image is Fine Art...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1154/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_847093.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1154/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_847093.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

I trust enough viewers would flatten that opinion. BTW nothing against the image, just using it for the topic of discussion. I think viewers will have some fun looking for things they can relate to that go against the grain.

It's all good...

Message edited by author 2010-01-31 20:03:05.
01/31/2010 08:11:08 PM · #30
I think this is a great challenge topic, I would call it the "In the style of Posthumous ribbon winners" or "try to win a Posthumous ribbon" Most of those are out of the box, non commercial picks by Don. Out of curiosity though, since you ruled out the top twenty of the Best of challenge as fine art(and I don't necessarily disagree) would you classify street photography as art? If so why?
01/31/2010 08:20:36 PM · #31
Steve, great running into you tonight, despite the cold.
1) Until I read the thread, the impression "fine art" conjured in my mind had nothing to do with what was later described. I like the challenge idea, however. So the dilemma is how to describe it?
2) I don't think a "Posthumous"-related challenge title says much to the site users who don't regularly visit the forums.
3) How about something along the lines of "Contemporary Art Photography"?

EDIT: Or "Photos You Might Find in an artsy Soho Gallery?" :-p

Message edited by author 2010-01-31 20:28:25.
01/31/2010 08:26:12 PM · #32
Originally posted by citymars:

EDIT: Or "Photos You Might Find in an artsy Soho Gallery?" :-p

I'm guessing most DPCers visit Soho galleries even less frequently than the forums ...
01/31/2010 08:28:31 PM · #33
Originally posted by citymars:


2) I don't think a "Posthumous"-related challenge title says much to the site users who don't regularly visit the forums.


Could be a problem, though I thought Landon could put a link to the threads where Posthumous puts his picks, sort of like he did with the challenge "in the style of Heida"
01/31/2010 08:50:33 PM · #34
Originally posted by trevytrev:

Originally posted by citymars:


2) I don't think a "Posthumous"-related challenge title says much to the site users who don't regularly visit the forums.


Could be a problem, though I thought Landon could put a link to the threads where Posthumous puts his picks, sort of like he did with the challenge "in the style of Heida"


Trouble with THAT is the thread's (d?)evolved to the point where many, if not most, of the "award-givers" don't buy into the Posthumous aesthetic. And anyway the PA is not some sort of descriptor of "fine art" anyway, as I'm sure he'd be the first to point out.

I'd make the argument, for example, that De Sousa's ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' is more "art" than it is "commercial", by a long shot, that it borrows from a long tradition of fine artists exploring specific themes and building on each others' work, and so forth and so on, but the assumption in this thread seems to be teetering towards "fine art" = blurry, obscure, enigmatic etc etc.

But what the heck do I know? I'm a hack artist; I do technicolor sunsets :-)

R.
01/31/2010 08:53:29 PM · #35
Yup, many times the Posthumous thread is a place for people simply to post their challenge favorites.
01/31/2010 09:16:53 PM · #36
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

I'd make the argument, for example, that De Sousa's ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' is more "art" than it is "commercial", by a long shot, that it borrows from a long tradition of fine artists exploring specific themes and building on each others' work, and so forth and so on


You're right. The key word is "exploring". It means you don't just follow someone else and stop. If you're not contributing to the construction of a new path or lengthening a current one, it's not art.

Message edited by author 2010-01-31 21:18:54.
01/31/2010 09:41:21 PM · #37
Originally posted by Bear_Music:


Trouble with THAT is the thread's (d?)evolved to the point where many, if not most, of the "award-givers" don't buy into the Posthumous aesthetic. And anyway the PA is not some sort of descriptor of "fine art" anyway, as I'm sure he'd be the first to point out.

I'd make the argument, for example, that De Sousa's ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' is more "art" than it is "commercial", by a long shot, that it borrows from a long tradition of fine artists exploring specific themes and building on each others' work, and so forth and so on, but the assumption in this thread seems to be teetering towards "fine art" = blurry, obscure, enigmatic etc etc.

But what the heck do I know? I'm a hack artist; I do technicolor sunsets :-)

R.


I agree that a lot of the posters are just posting their favs and not some out of the box aesthetic or style that for which Posthumous tends to award ribbons, so the link idea is no good. I guess I was going more with the theme of out of the ordinary or out of the box and latched on to the Posthumous awards, not necessarily Fine Art(though I'm not sure I even have a definitive idea of what falls into that and what doesn't) Hey, I'm not even a hack artist, I just mash a button on my camera and a bunch on my computer.
01/31/2010 10:23:02 PM · #38
Originally posted by Bear_Music:



I'd make the argument, for example, that De Sousa's ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/750/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_594202.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' is more "art" than it is "commercial", by a long shot, that it borrows from a long tradition of fine artists exploring specific themes and building on each others' work, and so forth and so on, but the assumption in this thread seems to be teetering towards "fine art" = blurry, obscure, enigmatic etc etc.

But what the heck do I know? I'm a hack artist; I do technicolor sunsets :-)

R.


I'm certain I'd be in the minority here but I'd rate DeSousa's image low in this Challenge. I won't explain why but I'd just have to suffer if it won. I do think it's a pretty slick commercial shot and believe it or not...I've seen it done a few times before BUT again, we'll let people decide for themselves. Keep in mind a lot of different types of Photography shows up in Gallery's but even within the industry not all of it would be considered Fine Art. Jill Greenberg and Annie Liebovitz could stage a scene to their heart delight and show in Galleries across the globe but it ain't Fine Art.

I do like DeSousa's shot but personally it doesn't work for me as FA. Just my opinion.
01/31/2010 10:30:31 PM · #39
Steve.....throw out a couple of examples of different takes of what you feel would qualify, whether they be yours or others'.
01/31/2010 10:44:02 PM · #40
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Steve.....throw out a couple of examples of different takes of what you feel would qualify, whether they be yours or others'.


Jeb to be perfectly honest what I think is pretty irrelevant except to my entry and the way I personally vote and I don't do much work at all that I'd consider FA. For example, I don't consider Street Photography FA and I'm 100% certain, some people would disagree...but again, who cares what I think...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_791046.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_791046.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_847482.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_847482.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_758124.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_758124.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_816578.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/32767/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_816578.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Those are what I have that kinda do it for me BUT it's not a "blur" thing even though examples lean that way. Ursula's flowers, nixter, goodman, ZZ...the posthumous thread have a wide variety of work that fall's into the zone of FA...as I define it.

People are free to vote them any way they'd like. One thing about art is that it's generally not made to please everyone whereas commercial work needs to capture a wide audience, as that's it's job. Of course there's lots of art that has a wide audience, as well. That's probably why we shouldn't get hung up in definitions and people can offer up whatever they feel. Right?

I am 100% certain of two things...
1. This Challenge WILL produce images that are far different than you will see in any typical Challenge.
2. The style of work that usually does well in the average Challenge, will not do nearly as well in this one by comparison.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35669/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_346077.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/35000-39999/35669/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_346077.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/462/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_305151.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/462/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_305151.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/322/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_167945.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/322/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_167945.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Message edited by author 2010-01-31 23:29:40.
01/31/2010 10:51:43 PM · #41
To show that everyone would have a different opinion on the challenge description I was thinking along these lines...

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_761761.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_761761.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_759362.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_759362.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_679527.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_679527.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

though I think only one of these would be advanced edit legal.
01/31/2010 10:59:09 PM · #42
Originally posted by Kelli:

To show that everyone would have a different opinion on the challenge description I was thinking along these lines...
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_759362.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_759362.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_679527.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/11854/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_679527.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


You would be perfectly right to enter them. Although I'd vote them very low because my personal criteria doesn't include Photoshoped type of effects BUT again, that's my prerogative NOT a rule or how I would define art for you. Bear might give you a 10, ZZ 1's across the board but that's cool and the way it should be.

Brett Walker kicks ass in a million different directions... Give him a look but keep in mind there are so many people out there and it only takes a few minutes on the internet to find some inspiration.

Message edited by author 2010-02-01 04:53:13.
01/31/2010 10:59:45 PM · #43
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30222/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_716265.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/30000-34999/30222/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_716265.jpg', '/') + 1) . ' ..... ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/16241/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_694099.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/15000-19999/16241/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_694099.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

These look like fine art to me.
01/31/2010 11:12:19 PM · #44
Originally posted by pawdrix:

... FA...as I define it.


"Fine Art", Steve, ain't what it used to be either. "Contemporary Art" (see ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' citymars' post) might be more specific and less threshed, especially with both words in lower case. The description should state exactly what you already bolded out in your original post: No "commercial potential". So, say,

This Temple is Not for Sale
Make a contribution to contemporary art by submitting a photograph that is not "of" or "about" something but an object in its own right.

Message edited by author 2010-01-31 23:35:27.
01/31/2010 11:17:15 PM · #45
Well, I like to award pictures that susprise me in some way, which runs counter to any sort of useful definition you could come up with. Indeed, a work of art is something that defies conventions.
02/01/2010 01:11:29 AM · #46
artful dodger
02/01/2010 01:17:00 AM · #47
you forgot an f
02/01/2010 01:29:08 AM · #48
nope, just awfully good at dodging
02/01/2010 10:11:45 AM · #49
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

... FA...as I define it.


"Fine Art", Steve, ain't what it used to be either. "Contemporary Art" (see ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' citymars' post) might be more specific and less threshed, especially with both words in lower case. The description should state exactly what you already bolded out in your original post: No "commercial potential". So, say,

This Temple is Not for Sale


No Commercial Potential...does say a lot. My description was pretty carefully crafted.

...using the various techniques commonly associated with "Fine Art Photography" actually carries a lot of weight because it does rules out the kitchen sink of what is found in Galleries online and brick & mortar. There are techniques and a certain look that is very closely associated with FA Photography and still quite wide open.

As for using the word Contemporary, that is so broad and does include just about anything under the sun...including waterdrops and Digital Art which is actually not the essence of what I was suggesting. Fine Art as you say has morphed but I still think what is generally view as FA is firmly rooted in Film techniques and in fact, I know some galleries wouldn't sell digital work no matter what it looked like and label it FA.

It's a broad concept but in no way loosy goosy, no matter what people wish to apply to it.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1031/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_787205.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/1000-1999/1031/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_787205.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

That's another good example and it's not blurred either...!!! (eta: actually there is a little blur but I didn't really notice)

Message edited by author 2010-02-01 10:20:15.
02/01/2010 11:06:30 AM · #50
> Steve:

I'm, as you know, with you in spirit, but Aunt Peggy and Joe's Pets are putting up websites with "Fine Art Photography" right next to sappy images of their nephews and nieces enjoying rides at Disney World.
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