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01/27/2010 02:47:45 PM · #1
Ok, so there are many people starting to make a lot of noise about this subject, so I thought I would weigh in with what I feel is an excellent solution to the "problem".

The problem as I see it is this: Some people are increasingly of the belief that there are users who are voting maliciously for whatever reasons they may harbor..

Ok. So good so far?

The majority of the solutions proposed so far have been restrictions and complex systems to "fix" the issue so that everyone scores higher (inflation anyone?).

Ah! This is where I see the alternative path, and to me it looks much nicer than the other tangled, overgrown cattle trail.

So, could we approach this in a manner that added value to the site and every user, while not restricting anyone or forcing comments or other such inconvenient measures?

I think the answer is yes.

So how? That's the best news, I think this should be really easy, and will serve three purposes:
1. Remove the FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Denial), by making a users voting behavior much more transparent.
2. Add depth to our understanding of our tastes, when compared to that of others, and others tastes compared to the "average".
3. Add accountability for voting behavior, remember, the best way to breed responsibility is to enhance accountability.


My proposal is the addition of a system to track voting history and display the history on a per user basis (keep metrics for # of 1's, # of 2's, # of 3's......... # of 10's..).

This could also be used to compare your votes to the votes of others (basically do you score winning images high, and brown ribbon winners low?, or do you score the winners low, and the brown's high? Maybe you'll find you have very different tastes, and your scores will not show any pattern relative to the image's final status..)

So, please do consider this approach, (if any at all), before adding restrictions and requirements that I do not feel will help in any significant way..

Cheers all, hope this makes sense to everyone.

Message edited by author 2010-01-27 14:50:21.
01/27/2010 02:59:35 PM · #2
i mentioned this in the other voting issues thread, but it seems to make more sense here: this is, in my opinion, the first step in creating a police-state type community where people will say things like "Well, if you don't do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" while someone who happens to vote low is strung up in publicly whipped for having practices that the majority doesn't agree with.

next it will be required that a telescreen is installed in everyone's home and place of business to make sure they are voting with a calibrated monitor under proper lighting conditions and a team of selected individuals will randomly monitor us while we vote to ensure the voters are spending enough time scrutinizing each image.

CITIZEN, you are voting inappropriately. Please assume the detainment position and await the DPC Agents of Mercy to come and assist you with your voting habits. Next thing you know someone disappears for 6 months and when they come back they are a completely changed person until ultimately they vanish, all history of them erased, and they are never seen again.

I'm being over the top, but I really don't think scaring people into voting higher is going to do anything. People vote how they vote, and that's awesome. They have their votes to give however they see fit. If they want to comment, great; if not, that's cool too. We're talking about virtual ribbons here, it's really not a big deal :)

ETA: i forgot to say that i do appreciate your efforts to improve the site. if users didn't bring up stuff like this, nothing would ever change and that wouldn't be good. I just happen to disagree with you on this one.

Message edited by author 2010-01-27 15:00:31.
01/27/2010 03:04:46 PM · #3
Originally posted by Steef:


I'm being over the top, but I really don't think scaring people into voting higher is going to do anything. People vote how they vote, and that's awesome. They have their votes to give however they see fit. If they want to comment, great; if not, that's cool too. We're talking about virtual ribbons here, it's really not a big deal :)


You certainly do a great job with over the top...

However, I would like to point out that the intent is to add value for the average user, while indeed scaring the bejezuz out of those who want to vote in a disruptive manner. Besides, I really don't want people to vote higher, only with a higher standard of fairness...
01/27/2010 03:08:15 PM · #4
I am blown away by some of the low scores given to the top shots, but I have come to realize that the cream tends to rise to top no matter what kind of suspect voting is going on.

Message edited by author 2010-01-27 15:08:29.
01/27/2010 03:09:38 PM · #5
for the average user who would like to track how many 1's, 2's, 3's etc they give, it's easy enough to tally them up after one is done voting on a challenge. the site groups the photos that you gave 10's and 9's etc separately. anyone who "troll votes" as people like to say, is more than likely just going to abandon the account before they are publicly chastised and create a new one. in my opinion, all a change like this would do is breed bad blood and probably start to rip the community apart... although, people sure do like to gather for a beheading (at least, they seem to in movies)

like i said, it's a good thought but i don't think it would work out how you think.
01/27/2010 03:12:01 PM · #6
Originally posted by coryboehne:

... the intent is to add value for the average user, while indeed scaring the bejezuz out of those who want to vote in a disruptive manner...


a) It is the average viewer that scares the bejezus out of me and
b) What is disruptive about choosing any value between 1 and 10 when voting?
01/27/2010 03:21:10 PM · #7
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by Steef:


I'm being over the top, but I really don't think scaring people into voting higher is going to do anything. People vote how they vote, and that's awesome. They have their votes to give however they see fit. If they want to comment, great; if not, that's cool too. We're talking about virtual ribbons here, it's really not a big deal :)


You certainly do a great job with over the top...

However, I would like to point out that the intent is to add value for the average user, while indeed scaring the bejezuz out of those who want to vote in a disruptive manner. Besides, I really don't want people to vote higher, only with a higher standard of fairness...


but how does one decide what is fair? it's completely subjective and is going to vary from person to person. that's really why, in my opinion, the current system works well. i have my voting process, you have yours. they are most certainly different, but neither is right or wrong.
01/27/2010 03:24:16 PM · #8
Sometimes I just scare the bejesus out of myself.
01/27/2010 03:26:09 PM · #9
So once you have all the metrics collected and what not, what are you going to do, have a confrontation or an intervention with low voting offenders??

Forget all that complex technical stuff... Focus on being honest with yourself. I would like to suggest two three articles of interest to read and practice:

The Art of Resiliency
Guide to Sportsmanship
How to receive feedback(Recognizing that a score is a form of feedback just like a comment.)

Really, be honest with yourself about the score you get. When a challenge is complete I review the results and if I don't like my score and don't receive sufficient comments I look at where I placed and see the photos that grouped around me and ask myself the question: Do I desereve to place here? If I can honestly answer yes, then I look at the photos that scored higher and honestly critique my own submission. If I feel I got a little less than I deserved, I place my photo in the group I feel I belong in and still look at the photo's that scored better than me and give myself an honest critique.

At the end of the day, people just need to stop whining, lace up their boots, strap their camera's back on and get out there and shoot for the next challenge.

Message edited by author 2010-01-27 15:27:38.
01/27/2010 04:09:51 PM · #10
Entirely unneeded and would turn this place into a witch-hunt, I hate you, you don't vote how I want you to, you mean nothing to me because you're not a nice voter, giant mess of garbage.
01/27/2010 04:21:00 PM · #11
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Voting Issues- A different take.

PS: It only feels like a different take because you've only been around a short time. :-)
01/27/2010 04:36:18 PM · #12
Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Entirely unneeded and would turn this place into a witch-hunt, I hate you, you don't vote how I want you to, you mean nothing to me because you're not a nice voter, giant mess of garbage.


Short, blunt and to the point... Thanks for cramming 4 paragraphs of what I would have said into a single sentence :)

Whenever you start influencing the way people vote (and REVEALING how they vote will influence it), you take away the democratic voting process.

Here is the best example I can give you, think of it like a scientific study, if the people who are being studied know that they are being observed, they may act differently, and taint your results. Look at it like a reality T.V. show, its not really reality, because people know they are being watched... That's what this place would turn in to. People would vote differently because they would know they are being watched... The point is, I want a RAW honest vote! If someone thinks my image is a 1... then I want a 1... not a 4 or a 5 because they fear what others may think... There are a few trolls around here who enjoy voting people down, but they tend to affect everyone equally, and the best images almost always win... Keep DPC real and keep it honest!
01/27/2010 05:10:37 PM · #13
I think we should have a rule that says you can't suggest a change to the voting system until you've entered and voted in at least 50 challenges.

I see a lot of angst in these threads from people who have been around a very short time and entered very few challenges.

01/27/2010 05:18:57 PM · #14
Just to clarify, I actually like the voting system, this is just a suggestion for those who are screaming at the top of their lungs. At least this has merit, and doesn't rely on restrictions.. That's my point entirely..

Just for the record, I know my shots suck and deserve EXACTLY the score they get. I just like metrics.. :)
01/27/2010 05:23:20 PM · #15
bah! humbug! Everyone gets a 1...except for me.
01/27/2010 05:31:47 PM · #16
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:

bah! humbug! Everyone gets a 1...except for me.


No soup for you!
01/27/2010 05:54:39 PM · #17
Originally posted by coryboehne:

Just to clarify, I actually like the voting system, this is just a suggestion for those who are screaming at the top of their lungs. At least this has merit, and doesn't rely on restrictions.. That's my point entirely.

Okay.....here's your first assignment.

Two voters vote on an image, and they both vote honestly by a system that they've been using here for a few years..

One voter gives it a 7, the other voter gives it a 4.

Who is right?

When you can answer that, and understand that these two voters both have an honest, and consistent voting style, you'll see that there is no possible way to govern the system outside of how it works now. You cannot determine how someone will feel about an image, it's strictly a visceral thing. Yeah, you can go on about the technicals, but what it always comes down to is how much people *like* the image.

Realistically, if everyone voted with the same style and parameters, this'd get boring real fast.
01/27/2010 06:56:53 PM · #18
Originally posted by Sirashley:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Entirely unneeded and would turn this place into a witch-hunt, I hate you, you don't vote how I want you to, you mean nothing to me because you're not a nice voter, giant mess of garbage.


Short, blunt and to the point... Thanks for cramming 4 paragraphs of what I would have said into a single sentence :)

Whenever you start influencing the way people vote (and REVEALING how they vote will influence it), you take away the democratic voting process.

Here is the best example I can give you, think of it like a scientific study, if the people who are being studied know that they are being observed, they may act differently, and taint your results. Look at it like a reality T.V. show, its not really reality, because people know they are being watched... That's what this place would turn in to. People would vote differently because they would know they are being watched... The point is, I want a RAW honest vote! If someone thinks my image is a 1... then I want a 1... not a 4 or a 5 because they fear what others may think... There are a few trolls around here who enjoy voting people down, but they tend to affect everyone equally, and the best images almost always win... Keep DPC real and keep it honest!


I think the problem is that people don't think that trolls are fair an honest. Case in point -- this received a 1: Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_838173.jpg. No matter how much you defend people's right to vote low, do you think a 1 is an honest vote on this shot? The worst vote, you can't get any lower for that photo?

That's why people get upset. They want life to be fair. Even though I'm grumbling mightly at any 3s and 4s I'm getting in "best of 2009", I don't think they're unfair; there are just people that don't like that type of shot and really don't think that much of it. However, a 1 or a 2 for the majority of photos in 2009 would be completely unjustified, imo. If a photo like Roz's warrants a 1 or 2, how do you score a photo like this? Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_850300.jpg It's not a cool, funky picture for the posthumous crowd - anyway you look at it, it's a bad photo. If you gave Roz a one, where is there room for this one?

People don't mind low votes if they make sense. There are just some votes that really don't make sense, yet the voter doesn't care to explain. That's why people bitch and moan.
01/27/2010 07:04:21 PM · #19
Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by Sirashley:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:

Entirely unneeded and would turn this place into a witch-hunt, I hate you, you don't vote how I want you to, you mean nothing to me because you're not a nice voter, giant mess of garbage.


Short, blunt and to the point... Thanks for cramming 4 paragraphs of what I would have said into a single sentence :)

Whenever you start influencing the way people vote (and REVEALING how they vote will influence it), you take away the democratic voting process.

Here is the best example I can give you, think of it like a scientific study, if the people who are being studied know that they are being observed, they may act differently, and taint your results. Look at it like a reality T.V. show, its not really reality, because people know they are being watched... That's what this place would turn in to. People would vote differently because they would know they are being watched... The point is, I want a RAW honest vote! If someone thinks my image is a 1... then I want a 1... not a 4 or a 5 because they fear what others may think... There are a few trolls around here who enjoy voting people down, but they tend to affect everyone equally, and the best images almost always win... Keep DPC real and keep it honest!


I think the problem is that people don't think that trolls are fair an honest. Case in point -- this received a 1: Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_838173.jpg. No matter how much you defend people's right to vote low, do you think a 1 is an honest vote on this shot? The worst vote, you can't get any lower for that photo?

That's why people get upset. They want life to be fair. Even though I'm grumbling mightly at any 3s and 4s I'm getting in "best of 2009", I don't think they're unfair; there are just people that don't like that type of shot and really don't think that much of it. However, a 1 or a 2 for the majority of photos in 2009 would be completely unjustified, imo. If a photo like Roz's warrants a 1 or 2, how do you score a photo like this? Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_850300.jpg It's not a cool, funky picture for the posthumous crowd - anyway you look at it, it's a bad photo. If you gave Roz a one, where is there room for this one?

People don't mind low votes if they make sense. There are just some votes that really don't make sense, yet the voter doesn't care to explain. That's why people bitch and moan.


Low votes will never make sense to some people. As for Roz's shot, good as it is, there have been people in other threads in the past that claim if the see one more bug macro, water drop, over processed HDR, yada yada yada shot, they will give it a 1 on general principle. This is a protest vote to try to get the message out that they want to see something else other than the the shots that typically score well here at DPC.

BTW - many of the 10 votes don't make sense either.
01/27/2010 07:32:37 PM · #20
Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_850300.jpg

This is a great image... I like how his Eye and tail are in focus and sharp.... this would get a 10 from me any day... Plastic bag just makes this stand out

01/27/2010 07:37:53 PM · #21
Its not the Trolls (they are like Bigfoot--no one has proved they exist) its the "filter" adding 1's and 2's to even the curve.:-)

Message edited by author 2010-01-27 19:38:31.
01/27/2010 07:45:06 PM · #22
I am amazed that we are investing so much effort into what accounts for a fraction of a percent of the total score in any given challenge. I mean really Who the Hell cares if a few people didnt get it or didnt like it tough noogies.
01/27/2010 08:07:54 PM · #23
It always amazes me how people feel changing the scoring system will make it so everyone will magically like every image ever entered. I had a good laugh at our local club which has monthly competitions, we had a visiting speaker who was asked to judge the competition and he was told the scale was 1-9, people gasped when he gave a photo a 1 but I just kind of laughed and thought to myself "troll, I found a troll", I'll admit it might not have been as funny if it was my image but he had just given his honest opinion and that is what he was asked to do. The photo quality was decent but he really did not like the subject and the image had no appeal to him personally. Bottom line it was his opinion, he was asked to judge using 1-9 and that is what he did. I agree there may be a moron or two voting occasionally but always remember the scale is 1-10 and people may just give their honest opinion and it may not line up with our votes.
01/27/2010 11:36:50 PM · #24
woo hoo I have a crowd!

I guess that's because I'm too old to have a generation.

01/27/2010 11:42:22 PM · #25
Originally posted by posthumous:

woo hoo I have a crowd!

I guess that's because I'm too old to have a generation.


How come he gets a crowd? If he get's a crowd we should all have a crowd - it's unfair that one person get's a crowd (GRIN!)

Seriously though that Roz's image got a 1 was ludicrous - agreed - but then it's a democracy - Except for that Posthumous crowd that's definitely a dictatorship! SMILE!

P.S - 21.gif posthumous how can I be a part of your crowd?
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