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01/21/2010 11:26:29 PM · #51
Originally posted by LVicari:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:


Thank you, this is my feeling too. I believe, that if you have to even the playing field so as not to disappoint, or scare people off, or band-aid anyone feeling bad, then you probably shouldn't be running a competition to begin with. Just because it exists in other 'sports' or competition doesn't mean I have to agree with it here. This is coming from someone that doesn't have near the skill that most people have, so it's not like I'm disappointed because I can't make a Dream Team. I just think it's disappointing that we always seem to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to things like this.


I don't see it that way at all. The original goal of WPL was that teams would be comprised of varying skill levels and that folks would be engaged in a learning experience. For me, the competition, such as it is, isn't the primary component of the experience, or ought not to be. Camaraderie and mentorship, that's the ticket :-)

R.


I agree its not just about the competition. Competitions exist to help guage where you stand and learn from the experience along the way, and maybe bring out the best in those who want to climb that proverbial mountain. But first there must be a "mountain"!


If the teams are stacked, where's the challenge for the mountain? If talent (by which I mean people who have a history of taking DPC-friendly photos) is widely scattered, then it becomes a real challenge for those that would be the mountain, along with everyone else.

There's no competition if you know who's going to win before the game even starts.
01/21/2010 11:27:09 PM · #52
seriously??? Oh, I'm soooo happy!!! Thanks for making this happen again!!
01/21/2010 11:36:34 PM · #53
Originally posted by mycelium:

Originally posted by LVicari:

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:


Thank you, this is my feeling too. I believe, that if you have to even the playing field so as not to disappoint, or scare people off, or band-aid anyone feeling bad, then you probably shouldn't be running a competition to begin with. Just because it exists in other 'sports' or competition doesn't mean I have to agree with it here. This is coming from someone that doesn't have near the skill that most people have, so it's not like I'm disappointed because I can't make a Dream Team. I just think it's disappointing that we always seem to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to things like this.


I don't see it that way at all. The original goal of WPL was that teams would be comprised of varying skill levels and that folks would be engaged in a learning experience. For me, the competition, such as it is, isn't the primary component of the experience, or ought not to be. Camaraderie and mentorship, that's the ticket :-)

R.


I agree its not just about the competition. Competitions exist to help guage where you stand and learn from the experience along the way, and maybe bring out the best in those who want to climb that proverbial mountain. But first there must be a "mountain"!


If the teams are stacked, where's the challenge for the mountain? If talent (by which I mean people who have a history of taking DPC-friendly photos) is widely scattered, then it becomes a real challenge for those that would be the mountain, along with everyone else.

There's no competition if you know who's going to win before the game even starts.


Ah! But that's why you play the game. There have been monumental upsets throughout history. They happen because of the will of the underdogs.They truly believe they can win. If they give in before they play ..well you know how that goes.

If you have no will, then don't bother playing.

ETA The mountain still needs to be on the top of their game to win. Always a challenge.

Message edited by author 2010-01-21 23:38:47.
01/21/2010 11:54:14 PM · #54
I'm kind of hoping when the signup comes out that previous players get a chance. It would really stink to miss signup for whatever reason. The band needs to get back together again.
01/21/2010 11:57:26 PM · #55
If I'm not mistaken, I think the Ribbon Hogs did indeed win, did they not?
01/22/2010 12:00:08 AM · #56
Originally posted by Melethia:

If I'm not mistaken, I think the Ribbon Hogs did indeed win, did they not?


I believe they did, but my gut tells me that team wouldn't form again. If memory serves it was a onetime deal. I think, it's been a long time.
01/22/2010 01:31:58 AM · #57
Originally posted by vlado:

Originally posted by sempermarine:

AWESOME! Just in time, my subscription was running out in 11 days and I needed a real good excuse to stick around.

Anyone interested in putting an all Marine or Military team together? Send me an email if your interested.


' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21_F.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Lonni, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' millsa and I are looking to put together a team of Aussies... if we're able to...


I'd be in that if you'd have me.
01/22/2010 04:09:11 AM · #58
given the somewhat limited participation my team has had during the past two years, i may or may not be able to get them interested. i might try to round up a team, but wish something would be done about the watermarking issue first...
01/22/2010 04:18:14 AM · #59
Originally posted by Skip:

given the somewhat limited participation my team has had during the past two years, i may or may not be able to get them interested. i might try to round up a team, but wish something would be done about the watermarking issue first...

For this team, I'll crawl my weary butt out of hibernation.
01/22/2010 05:46:06 AM · #60
firstly fantastic that this is coming back.

Secondly With option one & Three its going to create problems. With option one a low averaging team could win, call me old fashion but I'd like to see the best shots win a competition, not someone who normally shoots a 4 and snags a few 5.1's Just imagine an outsider trying to understand that on the front page.

The third option will force a team caption to choose his team very carefully, he may in fact choose a very highly stacked team with one brown ribbener who keeps the average low. At the very least I foresee people being 'dropped' out of a team because their score puts them over the average.

In my eyes the 2nd option is the best for what we are trying to achieve here. A way to choose a few friends & a nice fairness balance.
01/22/2010 06:45:54 AM · #61
I just want to be on the team with the cool kids. :)
01/22/2010 07:55:33 AM · #62
Originally posted by Brad:

Originally posted by Skip:

given the somewhat limited participation my team has had during the past two years, i may or may not be able to get them interested. i might try to round up a team, but wish something would be done about the watermarking issue first...

For this team, I'll crawl my weary butt out of hibernation.

Gasp!!! Brad?!

Hope you guys are taking care in this stormy weather you're having out your way. Good to see you poking your head up around here again. :-)
01/22/2010 07:57:59 AM · #63
Originally posted by Shadowi6:

... call me old fashion but I'd like to see the best shots win a competition, not someone who normally shoots a 4 and snags a few 5.1's Just imagine an outsider trying to understand that on the front page....

Challenge results and what's displayed on the front page of DPChallenge will not be impacted by any team results.
01/22/2010 08:08:53 AM · #64
OK - I see the poll for this on the front page. It also has a default vote. However, what if I don't want to register a vote? Seems to me the results will be skewed simply because there is no option to NOT vote or vote as "I don't care" so there will be all these default votes simply because you don't have the option to not vote or at least express that you have no interest.

I guess what I am getting at is the poll is kind of useless unless you have an interest in the DPL since if you don't have an interest a vote is cast for you anyway.
01/22/2010 08:26:30 AM · #65
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by K10DGuy:


Thank you, this is my feeling too. I believe, that if you have to even the playing field so as not to disappoint, or scare people off, or band-aid anyone feeling bad, then you probably shouldn't be running a competition to begin with. Just because it exists in other 'sports' or competition doesn't mean I have to agree with it here. This is coming from someone that doesn't have near the skill that most people have, so it's not like I'm disappointed because I can't make a Dream Team. I just think it's disappointing that we always seem to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to things like this.


I don't see it that way at all. The original goal of WPL was that teams would be comprised of varying skill levels and that folks would be engaged in a learning experience. For me, the competition, such as it is, isn't the primary component of the experience, or ought not to be. Camaraderie and mentorship, that's the ticket :-)

R.


It doesn't matter to me if an attempt is made to even out the teams or not. It seems more fair when it comes to winning to do so, but I don't mind the challenge of beating out a 'dream team' either.

I say we just make a decision asap and let the camaraderie and mentorship begin.
01/22/2010 08:48:05 AM · #66
well my team is ready and waiting!
01/22/2010 08:58:28 AM · #67
Originally posted by CEJ:

OK - I see the poll for this on the front page. It also has a default vote. However, what if I don't want to register a vote? Seems to me the results will be skewed simply because there is no option to NOT vote or vote as "I don't care" so there will be all these default votes simply because you don't have the option to not vote or at least express that you have no interest.

I guess what I am getting at is the poll is kind of useless unless you have an interest in the DPL since if you don't have an interest a vote is cast for you anyway.


Huh? You have to actually click that little "vote" button to register a vote and you're certainly not required to do that.
01/22/2010 09:00:28 AM · #68
Originally posted by Kelli:

Originally posted by CEJ:

OK - I see the poll for this on the front page. It also has a default vote. However, what if I don't want to register a vote? Seems to me the results will be skewed simply because there is no option to NOT vote or vote as "I don't care" so there will be all these default votes simply because you don't have the option to not vote or at least express that you have no interest.

I guess what I am getting at is the poll is kind of useless unless you have an interest in the DPL since if you don't have an interest a vote is cast for you anyway.

Huh? You have to actually click that little "vote" button to register a vote and you're certainly not required to do that.

That's what I thought also...I've voted, however I can see where some people may not have an interest and in that case the 'Poll' will stay at the top left of their DPC home page until it's over. Probably should have an option like "Not interested this time", or something like that.
01/22/2010 09:17:36 AM · #69
Looks like I came back to DPC just in time! I was wondering what ever happened to that!
01/22/2010 09:24:03 AM · #70
Originally posted by Hipychik:

I just want to be on the team with the cool kids. :)

Yeah, not like your last team! :)
01/22/2010 09:26:38 AM · #71
Originally posted by Shadowi6:

firstly fantastic that this is coming back.

Secondly With option one & Three its going to create problems. With option one a low averaging team could win, call me old fashion but I'd like to see the best shots win a competition, not someone who normally shoots a 4 and snags a few 5.1's Just imagine an outsider trying to understand that on the front page.

The third option will force a team caption to choose his team very carefully, he may in fact choose a very highly stacked team with one brown ribbener who keeps the average low. At the very least I foresee people being 'dropped' out of a team because their score puts them over the average.

In my eyes the 2nd option is the best for what we are trying to achieve here. A way to choose a few friends & a nice fairness balance.


Agreed. Also the second option makes it easier for the better photographers to have lower averaging photographers. They can help them out and help bring up their average. During DPL my averages jumped about 0.5. And since then my photography has gotten a whole lot better....
01/22/2010 09:31:27 AM · #72
Originally posted by Kelli:


Huh? You have to actually click that little "vote" button to register a vote and you're certainly not required to do that.


On my page there is NO button that you have to click to VOTE. There are three options one of which is checked already. I did not check it so my assumption is it is checked by default.

In any case, I would still like to see an option in the poll - all polls - to register a neutral or an I don't care or an I don't participate option.
01/22/2010 10:09:01 AM · #73
Option 3 seems badly flawed to me.

Previously, not everyone was required to participate every week because only the highest scores were taken. So a team could be made up of say 3 ribbon hogs and 2 complete newbies. The newbie scores would never count towards the actual competition. The real handicap for such a team would be the hogs never getting break .... but the hogs don't take breaks - that's why they're hogs.

VOTE OPTION #1
01/22/2010 10:28:01 AM · #74
Originally posted by K10DGuy:


Thank you, this is my feeling too. I believe, that if you have to even the playing field so as not to disappoint, or scare people off, or band-aid anyone feeling bad, then you probably shouldn't be running a competition to begin with. Just because it exists in other 'sports' or competition doesn't mean I have to agree with it here. This is coming from someone that doesn't have near the skill that most people have, so it's not like I'm disappointed because I can't make a Dream Team. I just think it's disappointing that we always seem to cater to the lowest common denominator when it comes to things like this.


I always root for the underdog.

imo it depends on the nature of the competition and the perceived antagonists in this competition. In a leveled-out playing field the competition is yourself and your abilities, not the other competitor.

In DPCland and DPLland is the goal to better photographers' abilities or is it to form a winning team. I would hope it's a combination of the two, but weighted on the former.

Me - I don't have a competitive toe in my body, when I play a sport I play at the level of the person I'm playing with. If they are fantastically better than I it doesn't spur me to get better just to beat them, or to stay in their game. For me the real competition is against myself and my ability, I really don't give a hoot about beating others - it doesn't motivate me, it never has and I'm too old to think it ever will. I motivate me to do the best I can against me, to make myself better ... the side result is I win.

The aforementioned mountain embodied by others - I don't care about it, it doesn't influence me.

Bottom line question: Who and what is DPL for? Answer (imo): The photograhers.
What motivates them, is it competition against a juggernaut, or is it competition from within?

I feel (and this is probably straying off topic) DPL shouldn't be scored with raw scores. For each competitor take the average of the last 20 scores as the baseline for that person. For scoring use

IndividualFinalScore = (ChallengeScore) - (Baseline)
TeamScore = sum(IndividualFinalScore)

You want competition? You want to struggle up a mountain? This is it. You score shows if you failed or succeeded, and by how much, and you have to perform exceptionally well to consistently succeed. This is not pussification, this is hardcore pass/fail. And at the beginning it levels the ability playing field.
01/22/2010 10:49:42 AM · #75
JP, I'm just like you. Well, except I'm female, I don't live in the frozen north, and maybe a few other small details, but as far as competition? Just like you.

I'm hoping there will be a "I don't give a damn" team as far as scoring and placement. Or several of those. Maybe one for the street shooters, even. Or not. Who knows? Good to see the enthusiasm, though.

My point about the Ribbon Hogs from earlier was there was never even any suspense - they never came close to losing. It was actually rather dull - except for them, maybe. The real fun was in the B and C leagues. Hope to see something like that again. But yeah, the Hogs did produce and the photography was the winner in the end as far as that goes.
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