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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> Death of Basic Editing?
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01/06/2010 10:51:22 AM · #26
I like advanced for the flexibility it gives me, but I don't want to see basic go away completely. For one thing, it helps level the field a little for new members to be able to see some success. (You know how long it took me to get my head wrapped around layers and masking?) It also makes us pay more attention to getting things right at the shutter button. I am enjoying the extra advanced challenges, but still thing some basic editing is needed. Perhaps in conjunction with basic subject topics?

I've found however, that the larger proportion of my strong entries required much less advance editing. Two of my current entries that are doing reasonably well had a little selective layer work to help preserve highlights, but could have been nearly as good under basic rules. Getting it right in the camera is always best.
01/06/2010 11:09:46 AM · #27
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Getting it right in the camera is always best.


this is my thought... even if I partecipate in an advance rules challenge, not always means that I use it, indeed, I often running the basic rules because the shot does not need other...

Message edited by author 2010-01-06 11:09:56.
01/06/2010 11:16:43 AM · #28
I am limited to basic as I do not have PS and dont understand much more than the basics. Anyay back in film days I used tranny mostly and it had to be done right.
01/06/2010 11:38:26 AM · #29
Well - the end result is always much nicer when you DIRTFT. No PP in the world can make up for a picture that is NG out of the camera. So I do agree that it would be worthwhile to also have absolute basic (no edit at all) challenges as an educational exercise.
01/06/2010 11:41:47 AM · #30
Originally posted by TrollMan:

So I do agree that it would be worthwhile to also have absolute basic (no edit at all) challenges as an educational exercise.


Wouldn't it be quite a job for SC though? I assume that it would be easy to cheat unless SC validate every entry. I'm all for one though as it would be interesting.
01/06/2010 11:48:03 AM · #31
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by TrollMan:

So I do agree that it would be worthwhile to also have absolute basic (no edit at all) challenges as an educational exercise.


Wouldn't it be quite a job for SC though? I assume that it would be easy to cheat unless SC validate every entry. I'm all for one though as it would be interesting.

Yes, definitely difficult. But what's more difficult is that all the .JPG shooters (as opposed to .RAW) would have an advantage since lot of cameras these days applies all kinds of sharpening, colors, contrast, sepia etc as in-camera features. You can even program some cameras to suppress/eliminate sensor dust and lens defects at known locations.
How would you control that? :)
01/06/2010 11:55:30 AM · #32
Originally posted by TrollMan:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by TrollMan:

So I do agree that it would be worthwhile to also have absolute basic (no edit at all) challenges as an educational exercise.


Wouldn't it be quite a job for SC though? I assume that it would be easy to cheat unless SC validate every entry. I'm all for one though as it would be interesting.

Yes, definitely difficult. But what's more difficult is that all the .JPG shooters (as opposed to .RAW) would have an advantage since lot of cameras these days applies all kinds of sharpening, colors, contrast, sepia etc as in-camera features. You can even program some cameras to suppress/eliminate sensor dust and lens defects at known locations.
How would you control that? :)


Very true. So when Joe asks for a 'zero editing' challenge in his first post he wouldn't really be able to enter one with his camera as it doesn't shoot RAW, only in-camera edited JPGs. Would be a difficult set of rules to adhere to.
01/06/2010 12:22:42 PM · #33
Originally posted by JuliBoc:

Originally posted by Jac:

Fact; blue moons aren't blue and do not emit blue light. :)

Color modification is allowed even in basic.


Just because it is allowed doesn't mean you have to do it. :p

Matt
01/06/2010 01:00:45 PM · #34
The death of basic editing? I wish. That fundamentalist photographers would stop whining about it--I can only hope.
01/06/2010 01:02:36 PM · #35
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by TrollMan:

Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:

Originally posted by TrollMan:

So I do agree that it would be worthwhile to also have absolute basic (no edit at all) challenges as an educational exercise.


Wouldn't it be quite a job for SC though? I assume that it would be easy to cheat unless SC validate every entry. I'm all for one though as it would be interesting.

Yes, definitely difficult. But what's more difficult is that all the .JPG shooters (as opposed to .RAW) would have an advantage since lot of cameras these days applies all kinds of sharpening, colors, contrast, sepia etc as in-camera features. You can even program some cameras to suppress/eliminate sensor dust and lens defects at known locations.
How would you control that? :)


Very true. So when Joe asks for a 'zero editing' challenge in his first post he wouldn't really be able to enter one with his camera as it doesn't shoot RAW, only in-camera edited JPGs. Would be a difficult set of rules to adhere to.


We have that ruleset already...it's called minimal editing. Only in camera editing, resizing, and cropping allowed. And we have had challenges using those rule sets.

Message edited by author 2010-01-06 13:03:04.
01/06/2010 01:37:17 PM · #36
Originally posted by pixelpig:

The death of basic editing? I wish. That fundamentalist photographers would stop whining about it--I can only hope.

:-(
01/06/2010 02:18:41 PM · #37
I'm in the camp of seeing even more Minimal challenges (at least two open ones per month). We don't have enough of them. I'd love to see the "regular" ribbon winners enter those and then see how they do. It certainly levels the playing field considerably. Plus, no one can complain that so-and-so is a PP'ing guru and they're not (eliminates expensive software programs). It would all boil down to how well you know and can operate your gear and how successful you are in manipulating your light source(s).

>>So when Joe asks for a 'zero editing' challenge in his first post he wouldn't really be able to enter one with his camera as it doesn't shoot RAW, only in-camera edited JPGs. Would be a difficult set of rules to adhere to.<<

Huh? That's the point of minimal challenges. You can enter a shot taken with your Barbie Glam-Cam if you like. As long as it churns out jpegs, you're golden. Whatever your camera can do before it spits it out and writes the jpeg to your memory card, you can enter it. RAW shots require conversion. Hence, you must set your camera up to save your shot as a jpeg before shooting - not RAW.
01/06/2010 02:27:27 PM · #38
I just gotta say... having read many of the posts here, I'd have to say that this thread exemplifies the "damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don't" scenarios we face on Site Council (or more accurately, scenarios faced by Langdon).

No matter what changes are made on the site, a few people will like 'em, some people will be ok with 'em, and a whole bunch of freaking out will transpire. :) As you can see here... some people love Basic, some hate it. Any changes would prompt a bunch of people to go berserk. And keeping things the same causes people to go berserk.
01/06/2010 02:29:58 PM · #39
Originally posted by ti_evom:


Huh? That's the point of minimal challenges. You can enter a shot taken with your Barbie Glam-Cam if you like. As long as it churns out jpegs, you're golden. Whatever your camera can do before it spits it out and writes the jpeg to your memory card, you can enter it. RAW shots require conversion. Hence, you must set your camera up to save your shot as a jpeg before shooting - not RAW.


Joe was asking for ' some minimal editing or ZERO editing challenges. ' i was pointing out that a ZERO editing challenge would have to be a straight RAW image as the process of producing a JPG in camera involves processing. I wasn't making a huge amount of sense there though admittedly. Also, as Trollman pointed out, in camera processing is pretty advanced with all sorts of Vivid, Sepia, Sharpening etc etc. Also be a huge job for Site Council to validate every entry. Saying that though, i'm game for more Minimal and Expert editing.

Message edited by author 2010-01-06 14:31:46.
01/06/2010 02:32:32 PM · #40
Originally posted by ti_evom:

I'm in the camp of seeing even more Minimal challenges (at least two open ones per month). We don't have enough of them. I'd love to see the "regular" ribbon winners enter those and then see how they do. It certainly levels the playing field considerably. Plus, no one can complain that so-and-so is a PP'ing guru and they're not (eliminates expensive software programs). It would all boil down to how well you know and can operate your gear and how successful you are in manipulating your light source(s).

>>So when Joe asks for a 'zero editing' challenge in his first post he wouldn't really be able to enter one with his camera as it doesn't shoot RAW, only in-camera edited JPGs. Would be a difficult set of rules to adhere to.<<

Huh? That's the point of minimal challenges. You can enter a shot taken with your Barbie Glam-Cam if you like. As long as it churns out jpegs, you're golden. Whatever your camera can do before it spits it out and writes the jpeg to your memory card, you can enter it. RAW shots require conversion. Hence, you must set your camera up to save your shot as a jpeg before shooting - not RAW.


No it doesn't even the playing field...because now those with better cameras will have better pictures lol....Will we ever stop complaining?
01/06/2010 02:34:13 PM · #41
Originally posted by alanfreed:

I just gotta say... having read many of the posts here, I'd have to say that this thread exemplifies the "damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don't" scenarios we face on Site Council (or more accurately, scenarios faced by Langdon).

No matter what changes are made on the site, a few people will like 'em, some people will be ok with 'em, and a whole bunch of freaking out will transpire. :) As you can see here... some people love Basic, some hate it. Any changes would prompt a bunch of people to go berserk. And keeping things the same causes people to go berserk.


I think you still have it wrong Alan...any change will cause one group to go beserk.....and no change will cause that same group to go beserk anyways!
01/06/2010 02:35:48 PM · #42
Originally posted by alanfreed:

I just gotta say... having read many of the posts here, I'd have to say that this thread exemplifies the "damned-if-you-do / damned-if-you-don't" scenarios we face on Site Council (or more accurately, scenarios faced by Langdon).

No matter what changes are made on the site, a few people will like 'em, some people will be ok with 'em, and a whole bunch of freaking out will transpire. :) As you can see here... some people love Basic, some hate it. Any changes would prompt a bunch of people to go berserk. And keeping things the same causes people to go berserk.

Well... but of course Alan! This is what we do to keep you guys on your toes ;)
01/06/2010 02:51:50 PM · #43
I still say we should mix it up more. Just because there is a challenge rule set you don't like, doesn't mean you HAVE to enter it.
01/06/2010 02:52:10 PM · #44
Originally posted by glad2badad:

I know when I go out to shoot for a challenge it's easier to relax a little if it's running under the Advanced rules. I can clone out a stray branch or blur/burn a "distracting" element afterwards. Not so with Basic. Have to think a little harder and be more careful when getting a photo for the Basic challenges. I like that challenge (most of the time). :-)


It's a fact that a perfectly PP shot is just so much better if it's a perfect shot (or series of shots) to begin with. The notion that PP is an effective crutch to compensate for poor photography skills sounds good only to those who hope it's true. The notion that PP somehow gives a shot an unfair advantage in competition is just silly. By all means, to your own self be true. I go out to shoot with as much discipline & rigor as I need & PP or not as I wish. It's nobody's business but mine.

Having said all that, I admit to enjoying the occasional minimal challenge for the very reasons everyone else has already stated. Plus, for me it feels kind of quaint & old-fashioned. It takes me back to the good ol' days of shooting a roll of 120 with my Brownie & taking it to the drugstore to be developed. Definitely, I don't want to be restricted to that mindset for the rest of my life.
01/06/2010 02:56:11 PM · #45
Clarification on my original post.

1. zero editing was a poor choice of words. i meant to convey simply taking an image with no processing, neither in camera nor out.
2. i joined the site and became a member to see if my interest held long enough to justify making the leap to a dslr, as well as some basic photography principles;
a. to learn the techs of photography
b. to learn post processing
c. to learn how to compose and capture
it seems like the emphasis in voting/entries/comments is almost always heavily in favor of (b) and rarely in favor of the other 2
3. not having gone to each current challenge page indivudually, i did not notice the "one more week of advanced open challenges".
I am certainly glad to have stirred such debate, but maybe if i had paid closer attention and noticed that minute detail...then I'd have realized that it was an effort to increase interest in membership and entice the non members to join, and that it was only temporary. Apologies to ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/3102.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/3102.gif', '/') + 1) . ' alanfreed for stirring any SC angst.

Now having said that...how about a minimal editing challenge already :D

Joe
01/06/2010 02:57:28 PM · #46
Originally posted by rob_smith:

I am starting to agree, the heavy processing of images is damaging this sites integrity IMHO. They sometimes look spectacular, but less like photos.


What is this "integrity" you're speaking of, and how is it being damaged?

R.
01/06/2010 03:00:50 PM · #47
Originally posted by Citadel:

Originally posted by albc28:


Minimal is pretty much straight from camera except you can get rid of sensor dust


You can't in minimal. Straight from camera. That's it. You can resize. Rotate. Do ONE sharpen. Submit. That's it.


Just to clarify from the minimum editing rules page.
You may:

* use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry, with the exception of combining multiple captures in-camera. My take if I remember correctly, you can then set any parameter you want in your camera, before you click the shutter but nothing after.
* rotate your entry by 90, 180 or 270 degrees.
* resize your entry once. Only one Resize, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/17203.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/user_id/17203.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Scalvert messed this one up. :P
* sharpen your entry using your editing software’s “sharpen” or equivalent option. The use of customizable sharpening tools, such as Unsharp Mask, is not allowed. You can sharpen your entry more than once, I have had it validated using two sharpens.
* fully desaturate your image using your editing software’s “desaturate,” “convert to grayscale” or equivalent function. Customizable tools are not allowed. I believe you can set the .jpeg to come out of your camera in black and white before you click the shutter, which may give you more control depending on camera settings.


Originally posted by albc28:



We have that ruleset already...it's called minimal editing. Only in camera editing, resizing, and cropping allowed. And we have had challenges using those rule sets.


From the minimal editing rules
You may not:

* Use a RAW original or RAW conversion software. You may shoot in RAW+JPG mode, provided you use the JPG original to create your entry.
* crop your entry.
* adjust brightness, contrast, curves or levels.
* spot-edit your entry for any purpose.


And although I don't see it in the rules, maybe someone can point it out to me. You can not use in camera editing software after you have clicked the shutter. Here is an example that was Dq'ed. ' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/667/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_494852.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/667/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_494852.jpg', '/') + 1) . '
01/06/2010 03:19:02 PM · #48
I'm still not clear on why advanced editing requires heave PP? You don't have to vote on images with heavy PP and you don't have to like them. In fact, I rather enjoy going into a challenge and voting for what I feel are the best images, not the ones that I think will win. And better yet, I like leaving a comment to tell the photographer how much I appreciate the image... regardless of how much PP was done. The way to change how people see photography is to do it with the images you create, not with rules.

My struggle with basic editing is that I don't want to invest the time in creating an image only to have somebody tell me I cannot remove a spot or do a little burning/dodging in order to bring out what I saw as the image was created. I did these things in a darkroom, in Photography 101, and yet they are unacceptable in a basic challenge.

Ok... I'll step off the soapbox now.
01/06/2010 03:19:42 PM · #49
Originally posted by jdannels:

And although I don't see it in the rules, maybe someone can point it out to me. You can not use in camera editing software after you have clicked the shutter.


That'd be this: use any feature of your camera while photographing your entry, with the exception of combining multiple captures in-camera. You had it right in your post. "While" is not the same as "after".

R.
01/06/2010 03:25:16 PM · #50
Originally posted by Jac:

I still do not understand why Topaz is allowed in Basic Editing. It shouldn't be.


There was a fundamental conflict in place, when they disallowed tone mapping but continued to allow shadow/highlight in Photoshop, plus its equivalent in PSP. Shadow/highlight *IS* photoshop's version of tone mapping, basically. Some of us were quite vocal about this discrepancy. We felt that S/H should also be banned, if the others (topaz, lucis, tone mapping) were. I don't know if that's why they changed the rule. But at least it's consistent now.

Essentially, basic editing is a bit of a red-haired stepchild anyway. It makes more sense to have basic be more like the seldom-used minimal ruleset, except allowing rotation and cropping, the current basic is kind of a hodgepodge. That's my opinion, anyway.

R.
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