| Author | Thread |
|
|
12/06/2009 07:00:51 AM · #26 |
| I think this is a perfect example of media spin. Most who watch Italian media are convinced she did it, and those who watch American media think there's no way she could have done it. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 07:07:59 AM · #27 |
Originally posted by JCDean:
I think this is a perfect example of media spin. Most who watch Italian media are convinced she did it, and those who watch American media think there's no way she could have done it. |
this is true, here i watch cnn and their usual biased coverage saying that there is no way she could have done it. There are many points , one of them was - look she never had any previous records and she does not look like that type of person etc etc. And i was thinking of BTK killer, who lived among us for years.
There was another interesting point someone raised when asked if she was surprised by conviction, she replied she was not surprised because in US 70% of cases result in conviction so it is norm rather than exception. (this was on CNN). |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 09:31:40 AM · #28 |
Originally posted by Niten:
Americans have no chance in an Italian court. They hate us there. The simple solution is to just not go there. Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too. |
This statement must be based on your vast experience in polling techniques? Or is it that you have inside knowledge of what goes on in an Italien courtroom? Really, have you ever even been to Italy? If not it sounds like a bigotted statement to me.
I just love when people throw statements like this out there and then start back peddling about what they really meant. Sometimes it's not what you say or how you say it, but how others preceive it. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 09:51:35 AM · #29 |
this is quoted from the NY TIMES
In a statement after the verdict was delivered early Saturday, Senator Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington, said, “I have serious questions about the Italian justice system and whether anti-Americanism tainted this trial.” She added, “The prosecution did not present enough evidence for an impartial jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ms. Knox was guilty.”
//www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/europe/06perugia.html
|
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:07:04 AM · #30 |
Same thing has been reported in the English newspapers too.
But it does beg the question.
There usually is an uproar when a foreign national gets convicted in a different country, there is usually always the 'unfair' trial thrown around |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:08:58 AM · #31 |
I don't really think 'anti-americanism' had much to do with the outcome to be honest although i do think the case against her was seriously flawed. The more i read about the details the more it looks highly suspicious. Here's an interesting article that suggest a common Italian fear of 'losing face' may have influenced proceedings.
//www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/06/amanda-knox-meredith-kercher-trial-perugia
And also some interesting thoughts on possible cultural differences playing a part...
//www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/04/two-faces-of-amanda-knox
Message edited by author 2009-12-06 10:09:46. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:13:25 AM · #32 |
Originally posted by soup:
this is quoted from the NY TIMES
In a statement after the verdict was delivered early Saturday, Senator Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington, said, “I have serious questions about the Italian justice system and whether anti-Americanism tainted this trial.” She added, “The prosecution did not present enough evidence for an impartial jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ms. Knox was guilty.”
//www.nytimes.com/2009/12/06/world/europe/06perugia.html |
Apples to oranges, the crime did not happen in the US, it happened in Italy. If you do something stupid in someone else’s country you can only anticipate their form of justice. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:18:10 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by alans_world:
Apples to oranges, the crime did not happen in the US, it happened in Italy. If you do something stupid in someone else’s country you can only anticipate their form of justice. |
Thats true but it's also important to look at any influences that may possibly result in miscarriages of justice. Unfortunalty miscarriages of justice do happen. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:22:06 AM · #34 |
Yeah but all media is biased. If The Guardian had it's way all offenders would be on holiday receiving hugs as their "treatment". ha ha. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:27:10 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by rob_smith:
Yeah but all media is biased. If The Guardian had it's way all offenders would be on holiday receiving hugs as their "treatment". ha ha. |
Ha! Thats very true. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 10:34:10 AM · #36 |
| I figure in the US, DNA would have been tossed, circumstantial would give her a 50-50 (+ - depending on state). |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 11:19:05 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Niten:
Americans have no chance in an Italian court. They hate us there. The simple solution is to just not go there. Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too. |
This I cannot believe you think this is an acceptable thing to say on a public forum. I don't care how many Italians you claim to have met, have indeed met, or what twisted logic your presenting, you are wrong and should be ashamed of yourself. Grow up and keep your bigotry to yourself, the real world is clearly very different from what goes on in your head.
Tonight I'm heading out with my Italian housemates and our American friends, let's hope we're not attacked in the street and locked up for speaking English, because obviously that happens all the time here in a country that relies so heavily on tourism and foreign investment. Italians are some of the friendliest, most welcoming people I have met, I love living here and have never felt uncomfortable because of my association to Americans (with whom I am both friends and colleagues).
I hope that Meredith's parents find some solace and closure in this decision, we were at University together and studying in Italy when this tragedy happened. I have since moved back out to Rome and I am glad that the press can finally leave her and her parents in peace, it will certainly make life more comfortable for me. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 11:27:45 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by david1707:
Originally posted by Niten:
Americans have no chance in an Italian court. They hate us there. The simple solution is to just not go there. Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too. |
This statement must be based on your vast experience in polling techniques? Or is it that you have inside knowledge of what goes on in an Italien courtroom? Really, have you ever even been to Italy? If not it sounds like a bigotted statement to me.
I just love when people throw statements like this out there and then start back peddling about what they really meant. Sometimes it's not what you say or how you say it, but how others preceive it. |
You don't have to eat crap to believe it tastes like crap. I don't recall backpeddling on anything.
Please let me sugar coat that statement for all that were insulted.
Americans in Italy have a slightly less than favorable opportunity to prevail. They are less than loved there. One idea would be to limit your visitation to such locations. By defending their daughter Amanda's parents have been arrested for deflamation but they might not go to jail. But if they do, at least they will be with Amanda.
If you are easily offended please skip to the sugar coated version
As far as the bigot statements. I believe your accusation is idiotic and shows ignorance of the definition of bigot. I have no hatred or intolerance for Italians. I still believe there is some anti-americanism there. I am still quite indifferent toward Italians.
Sugar version
Hi sweetie, I think your a bit off base with the bigot statements. I like Italians. Love, T |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 11:34:18 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by alans_world:
Apples to oranges, the crime did not happen in the US, it happened in Italy. If you do something stupid in someone else’s country you can only anticipate their form of justice. |
Yah, but this presumes that she did anything at all... There seems to some of us to be reasonable doubt that she is guilty. So the issue being discussed here is whether she (basically) got railroaded because the Italian justice system has much less rigorous standards in this regard.
For those who are interested, here's a layman's overview of the Italian legal system. Where the British and American systems have their genesis in the Magna Carta, Italian law is based on the Napoleonic code and ancient Roman law. It's very complicated, and doesn't work at all like our system.
R. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 11:43:33 AM · #40 |
| Yeh unfortunately the legal system here is a joke, hence Berlusconi being Prime Minister rather than in jail. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 11:48:11 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Americans have no chance in an Italian court. They hate us there. The simple solution is to just not go there. Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too. |
This I cannot believe you think this is an acceptable thing to say on a public forum. I don't care how many Italians you claim to have met, have indeed met, or what twisted logic your presenting, you are wrong and should be ashamed of yourself. Grow up and keep your bigotry to yourself, the real world is clearly very different from what goes on in your head.
Tonight I'm heading out with my Italian housemates and our American friends, let's hope we're not attacked in the street and locked up for speaking English, because obviously that happens all the time here in a country that relies so heavily on tourism and foreign investment. Italians are some of the friendliest, most welcoming people I have met, I love living here and have never felt uncomfortable because of my association to Americans (with whom I am both friends and colleagues).
I hope that Meredith's parents find some solace and closure in this decision, we were at University together and studying in Italy when this tragedy happened. I have since moved back out to Rome and I am glad that the press can finally leave her and her parents in peace, it will certainly make life more comfortable for me. |
What part of my statement is bigoted?
Americans have no chance in an Italian court.- My oppinion derived from personal experience using this case as an example.
They hate us there.- Again my oppinion derived from personal experience. Just read a few articals and it seems clear.
The simple solution is to just not go there.- This is pretty simple to figure out.
Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too.- They have been arrested for deflamation for defending their daughter.
No hatred and no intolerence, just oppinions. Just because you disagree doesn't make my statements bigoted. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 11:49:48 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Unfortunalty miscarriages of justice do happen. |
Yes, even in the USA. (Exerpt, emphasis added):
• There have been 245 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States.
• 17 of the 245 people exonerated through DNA served time on death row.
Races of the 245 exonerees:
146 African Americans
71 Caucasians
21 Latinos
2 Asian American
5 whose race is unknown
****************************************
(MADISON, WI; August 19, 2009) – Prosecutors announced today that they will not appeal a ruling that dismissed murder charges against Ralph Armstrong, which means he is now fully cleared in the case. Armstrong is expected to be transferred to New Mexico, where he was on parole when he was arrested for the 1980 Wisconsin murder that he didn’t commit. Following is a statement issued today from Ezekiel Edwards, Staff Attorney at the Innocence Project:
“The District Attorney’s office wisely chose not to appeal this case, but its claims that prosecutors acted ‘honorably’ and ‘in good faith’ at every stage are plainly untrue. This is one of the worst cases of prosecutorial misconduct that we’ve seen. The prosecution hid evidence of Ralph Armstrong’s innocence for years and actively tried to sabotage his efforts to prove he didn’t commit this crime. Even after the state Supreme Court threw out Ralph Armstrong’s conviction based on evidence of his innocence, the prosecutor continued to hide yet more evidence of his innocence. Ralph Armstrong’s 30-year-long nightmare is much closer to finally ending. We will work with other attorneys to resolve any outstanding legal issues in New Mexico. We hope and believe that New Mexico officials will release Ralph Armstrong promptly, given that he has served the last 29 years of his life in prison for a crime he did not commit.”
************************************************************
New Report Shows that Cameron Todd Willingham, Executed in Texas in 2004, Was Innocent
‘There can no longer be any doubt that an innocent person has been executed. The question now turns to how we can stop it from happening again,’ Innocence Project Co-Director Barry Scheck says
(NEW YORK; August 31, 2009) – An exhaustive new investigative report shows that Cameron Todd Willingham, who was executed in Texas in 2004, was innocent. The report comes three years after the Innocence Project released analysis from some of the nation’s leading forensic experts who found that the central evidence against Willingham was not valid. The Innocence Project also obtained public records showing that Texas officials ignored this evidence in the days leading up to Willingham’s execution.
Willingham was convicted of arson murder in 1992 and was executed in February 2004. His three young children died at a fire in the family’s Corsicana, Texas, home. At Willingham’s trial, forensic experts testified that evidence showed the fire was intentionally set. A jailhouse informant also testified against Willingham, and other circumstantial evidence was used against him.
A 16,000-word report in the September 7 issue of the New Yorker deconstructs every facet of the case, finding that none of the evidence against Willingham was valid. Prior to the New Yorker’s investigative report, by David Grann, the forensic science had been debunked as completely erroneous (including in a 2004 investigative report in the Chicago Tribune), but the other evidence was never examined closely. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:01:13 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Niten:
No hatred and no intolerence, just oppinions. Just because you disagree doesn't make my statements bigoted. |
Hum, to be honest Niten, your opinions do come across as incredibly naive and pretty xenaphobic. You are, of course, perfectly entitled to them but don't be surprised when they are challenged. There may be anti-american foreign policy feelings in many countries, the UK for one, and some people do get confused between anti-american foreign policy and just plain anti-american, but to label a whole country in that way is pretty silly. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:05:00 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Americans have no chance in an Italian court. They hate us there. The simple solution is to just not go there. Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too. |
This I cannot believe you think this is an acceptable thing to say on a public forum. I don't care how many Italians you claim to have met, have indeed met, or what twisted logic your presenting, you are wrong and should be ashamed of yourself. Grow up and keep your bigotry to yourself, the real world is clearly very different from what goes on in your head.
Tonight I'm heading out with my Italian housemates and our American friends, let's hope we're not attacked in the street and locked up for speaking English, because obviously that happens all the time here in a country that relies so heavily on tourism and foreign investment. Italians are some of the friendliest, most welcoming people I have met, I love living here and have never felt uncomfortable because of my association to Americans (with whom I am both friends and colleagues).
I hope that Meredith's parents find some solace and closure in this decision, we were at University together and studying in Italy when this tragedy happened. I have since moved back out to Rome and I am glad that the press can finally leave her and her parents in peace, it will certainly make life more comfortable for me. |
What part of my statement is bigoted?
Americans have no chance in an Italian court.- My oppinion derived from personal experience using this case as an example.
They hate us there.- Again my oppinion derived from personal experience. Just read a few articals and it seems clear.
The simple solution is to just not go there.- This is pretty simple to figure out.
Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too.- They have been arrested for deflamation for defending their daughter.
No hatred and no intolerence, just oppinions. Just because you disagree doesn't make my statements bigoted. |
The bigoted part is where you make sweeping statements about the population of an entire country - that's also the intolerance part. Just because you say "just my oppinion" (yes, I did leave the spelling mistake in on purpose) doesn't make it a not hurtful and wholly wrong to say. I'm not entertaining your ridiculous arguments any more.
My final thought here, why, if this is was so obviously an exhibition of anti-Americanism and racism on the part of the Italians, were an Italian and a half Italian half Ivorian also convicted? You have clearly only been reading American newspapers which will have glossed over this fact. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:27:15 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Americans have no chance in an Italian court. They hate us there. The simple solution is to just not go there. Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too. |
This I cannot believe you think this is an acceptable thing to say on a public forum. I don't care how many Italians you claim to have met, have indeed met, or what twisted logic your presenting, you are wrong and should be ashamed of yourself. Grow up and keep your bigotry to yourself, the real world is clearly very different from what goes on in your head.
Tonight I'm heading out with my Italian housemates and our American friends, let's hope we're not attacked in the street and locked up for speaking English, because obviously that happens all the time here in a country that relies so heavily on tourism and foreign investment. Italians are some of the friendliest, most welcoming people I have met, I love living here and have never felt uncomfortable because of my association to Americans (with whom I am both friends and colleagues).
I hope that Meredith's parents find some solace and closure in this decision, we were at University together and studying in Italy when this tragedy happened. I have since moved back out to Rome and I am glad that the press can finally leave her and her parents in peace, it will certainly make life more comfortable for me. |
What part of my statement is bigoted?
Americans have no chance in an Italian court.- My oppinion derived from personal experience using this case as an example.
They hate us there.- Again my oppinion derived from personal experience. Just read a few articals and it seems clear.
The simple solution is to just not go there.- This is pretty simple to figure out.
Her mom and dad will be lucky to get out before they are jailed for something too.- They have been arrested for deflamation for defending their daughter.
No hatred and no intolerence, just oppinions. Just because you disagree doesn't make my statements bigoted. |
The bigoted part is where you make sweeping statements about the population of an entire country - that's also the intolerance part. Just because you say "just my oppinion" (yes, I did leave the spelling mistake in on purpose) doesn't make it a not hurtful and wholly wrong to say. I'm not entertaining your ridiculous arguments any more.
My final thought here, why, if this is was so obviously an exhibition of anti-Americanism and racism on the part of the Italians, were an Italian and a half Italian half Ivorian also convicted? You have clearly only been reading American newspapers which will have glossed over this fact. |
Well you must discount everything I say because I misspelled a word(actually a typo). |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:28:52 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Niten:
Well you must discount everything I say because I misspelled a word(actually a typo). |
Way to dodge the point. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:47:18 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Well you must discount everything I say because I misspelled a word(actually a typo). |
Way to dodge the point. |
If I can't make a statement about a countries general conscience without it being bigoted then I'm pretty much done. Try inserting other countries that you believe hate Americans in there instead of Italy. Would it all be bigoted? Figure it out for yourself, I'm out. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:52:55 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Niten:
Try inserting other countries that you believe hate Americans in there instead of Italy. Would it all be bigoted? |
Naive, xenophobic and bigoted? Yes. |
|
|
|
12/06/2009 12:53:41 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Well you must discount everything I say because I misspelled a word(actually a typo). |
Way to dodge the point. |
If I can't make a statement about a countries general conscience without it being bigoted then I'm pretty much done. Try inserting other countries that you believe hate Americans in there instead of Italy. Would it all be bigoted? Figure it out for yourself, I'm out. |
In other words, you can no longer defend your bigotry so you're running away.
|
|
|
|
12/06/2009 01:11:29 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Niten:
Originally posted by JimiRose:
Originally posted by Niten:
Well you must discount everything I say because I misspelled a word(actually a typo). |
Way to dodge the point. |
If I can't make a statement about a countries general conscience without it being bigoted
then I'm pretty much done. Try inserting other countries that you believe hate Americans in there instead of Italy. Would it all be bigoted? Figure it out for yourself, I'm out. |
In other words, you can no longer defend your bigotry so you're running away. |
If I can't make a statement about a countries general consciences without it being bigoted then I can't defend my position fairly. In your way of thinking a statement like "they love Americans" would also have to be bigoted. |
|
