| Author | Thread |
|
|
05/26/2004 08:48:17 AM · #1 |
Just recently there was a post unhappy with the way the overall voters view and interpret photos here as to whether or not they are art. I'm also now starting to notice that I too have a sort of disinterest with the overall voter, well at least I'm not voting like the majority; not even close. For instance there were photos in habits that were in the top 20 that I gave 2's. Now before any of ya'll start jumping on my back, I'm not better than anyone else. I think people come here with different wants and needs. Although I love frogs, insects, and other macro shots, I PERSONALLY want to work on and put emphasis on people. I'd like to know if creating forums or having subsections/challenges more tailored to the various categories such as Macro, People, Landscape, and Machinery would interest others and help keep membership up at the site. As it seems now, most challenges are geared more to inanimate objects. Now notice, I’m not talking about anything major here maybe just category forums.. Anyway, just a thought and wanted to bounce it off you all.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 08:56:14 AM · #2 |
I honestly don't see TPTB adding more challenges in the forseeable future. It's hard enough to vote on 2 weekly challenges and put in some good quality comments.
But I do kinda like the idea of subject specific forums in the future...
It would make it easier for some of the good photographers to give tips to those looking to improve.
So if we had to pick 5 categories (in the interests of not having 10 billion additional forums) what should we pick?
I'd say Landscape and macro. Rather than people, what about portraiture?
Or Studio?
Let's move this thread over to Web Site Suggestions shall we?
Clara- cool idea Eric
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:05:51 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by blemt:
Let's move this thread over to Web Site Suggestions shall we? |
:)
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:17:53 AM · #4 |
doh!...(in my best homer simpson impression) suggestions is the better place for it, thanks.
in regards to portraiture or studio, I think there is such a wide variety of ways of shooting people (snapshots, candids, street, portraits, baby, etc.) a sort of general might be better.
And while I agree it might not happen too soon, it could end up being a good way to grow the site. I'd be interested to know the numbers as to membership turnaround and if they have a way of collecting information about why people leave.
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 09:18:57.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:21:52 AM · #5 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Originally posted by blemt:
Let's move this thread over to Web Site Suggestions shall we? |
:) |
Danke Spaceman Spiff!
Clara
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:23:54 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by ericsuth:
in regards to portraiture or studio, I think there is such a wide variety of ways of shooting people (snapshots, candids, street, portraits, baby, etc.) a sort of general might be better.
|
True, but I'm also thinking of how the area can be of the most use. I'm personally having nightmares of 10,001 badly composed baby snapshots being posted with the comment, "what's wrong with my baby?" Which is such a loaded question. ;)
Clara
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:29:44 AM · #7 |
Plus we could put cats in portraiture :P
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:36:09 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Konador:
Plus we could put cats in portraiture :P |
We can have a cat category? Cool! I'm there.
Clara- meow!
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:37:09 AM · #9 |
I like the site the way it is. There are at least two "themes" every week, and very often, they are wide-open subject-matter wise (ala "Centered Composition"), allowing you to photograph whatever you want to try and improve your proficiency at your particular choice of subject matter. Somebody else may have a picture that is more popular with the world-wide voters that rank the entries, but you can still take pictures of whatever you want in a lot of challenges.
Plus, you don't need a DPC challenge to take more "portraits". You can do that on your own accord! =] The weekly challenges are what makes DPC what it is, and "different" from DigitalPhotoContest (for example), which has the same 10 categories day-in and day-out...
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 09:37:25. |
|
|
|
05/26/2004 09:55:01 AM · #10 |
OUTSTANDING LINK! , thanks a lot Eddy, I'll have to check it out in more depth later. but that looks like almost exactly what I'm looking for, only downside I noticed so far is that it seems more commercially driven and doesn't seem to have the community feel this one seems to have. That's only after looking at it for about 2 min...I could be wrong.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 11:00:27 AM · #11 |
I would like to see the membership, both paid and unpaid, broken up into skill level somehow. Maybe post the same two challenges each week for two or three different skill levels.
I believe that would have several effects. First, if there are three skill levels, it could decrease the number of entries in each category, thereby increasing the number of comments. So instead of 300 entries for one challenge, 100 entries for each of three differnt skill level challenges.
Second, the chances of getting a reward would be increased. Those little guys with the 3 MP cameras would no longer be relegated to the last pages of the challenge results (Though there are exceptions of course). We all know that without reward, interest soon wanes. Amateurs who keep losing badly and getting low scores are more apt to give up. I know I haven't entered a challenge in a long time because of the limits of my puny camera verses a DSLR. It's frustrating.
As far as ribbons and prints go. A different set of ribbon icons can be created for each skill level. However the prints for winners works, they can be offered only to the highly skilled or across the entire skill set, at the discretion of the admins.
As far as skill ranking goes, the option to select your skill level in your profile should be offered, then challenge access restricted to each skill difficulty based up on that selection.
I believe the site will be very enhanced if this suggestion is taken. More people will benefit by competing with their peers. Full interaction between skill groups will be accomplished in the forums as usual, so there is no risk of segregation. It is up to the member to choose their skill level and move up the skill ladder as they please and more members photography skill will be enhanced, which fits into the original statement of purpose for the creation of this site. Please seriously consider this change. |
|
|
|
05/26/2004 11:29:30 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I would like to see the membership, both paid and unpaid, broken up into skill level somehow. Maybe post the same two challenges each week for two or three different skill levels.
I believe that would have several effects. First, if there are three skill levels, it could decrease the number of entries in each category, thereby increasing the number of comments. So instead of 300 entries for one challenge, 100 entries for each of three differnt skill level challenges.
Second, the chances of getting a reward would be increased. Those little guys with the 3 MP cameras would no longer be relegated to the last pages of the challenge results (Though there are exceptions of course). We all know that without reward, interest soon wanes. Amateurs who keep losing badly and getting low scores are more apt to give up. I know I haven't entered a challenge in a long time because of the limits of my puny camera verses a DSLR. It's frustrating.
As far as ribbons and prints go. A different set of ribbon icons can be created for each skill level. However the prints for winners works, they can be offered only to the highly skilled or across the entire skill set, at the discretion of the admins.
As far as skill ranking goes, the option to select your skill level in your profile should be offered, then challenge access restricted to each skill difficulty based up on that selection.
I believe the site will be very enhanced if this suggestion is taken. More people will benefit by competing with their peers. Full interaction between skill groups will be accomplished in the forums as usual, so there is no risk of segregation. It is up to the member to choose their skill level and move up the skill ladder as they please and more members photography skill will be enhanced, which fits into the original statement of purpose for the creation of this site. Please seriously consider this change. |
I think this is a great idea. Not only equipment wise, but experience wise, it is not a very level playing field. Even if someone new to photography had a couple grand to go spend on gear, doesn't mean they will suddenly take great photos, thus adding to frustration. Skill levels based on experience and equipment would help put people more evenly matched. Now granted, I think there is still a matter of innate talent, that some just will never excel at, but it can be discouraging to be consistently at the back of the pack. Success breeds success, even in small doses.
A problem I would foresee though, would be people purposely entering in levels below them only in order to place higher in challenges. I am sure there are ways that this could be handled/monitered, but not quite sure of the best way/ways. Possibly things like taking into account avg. scores received, ribbons won, etc. and forcing people to move up.
I do think it is a super idea, and if at all logistically possible, something the site should seriously consider. |
|
|
|
05/26/2004 11:57:20 AM · #13 |
I didn't think about skill level, but you're right, and it sounds good. I just think that it shouldn't be based on user pref. but more specifically the camera/equipment based on exif data. otherwise you could have a "pro" with a dslr raking in the blue ribbons by saying he/she was a beginner. maybe have limits on lower levels to one on two ribbons then forced up. good idea to explore. With some of these challenges approaching 300 photos, really gets difficult to look at all of them, and the member voting is one of the things I really like about this site (compared to //www.DigitalPhotoContest.com ).
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 11:58:49.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 12:07:05 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I would like to see the membership, both paid and unpaid, broken up into skill level somehow. Maybe post the same two challenges each week for two or three different skill levels.
|
Hmmm, I see a situation where the "experts" get voted on, the "middle of the pack" get half voted on, and the "beginners" get next to no votes. You will also see a situation where the difference between users is really emphasized and potentially reenforced.
I also see a situation where people still don't get comments. Not thinking this is such a hot idea. I think the challenges need to stay the way they are. Two challenges a week is more than enough.
But I still like the idea of some additional forums.
Clara
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 12:31:23 PM · #15 |
| Splitting up challenges into levels has been discussed many times here at DPC. I've found a discussion about it going back to June of 2002 here. Another thread in 2003 here. |
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:06:37 PM · #16 |
I like the idea of 'skill levels' or what have you. As in most things in life, we are not equal (US constitution not withstanding). I may not have the time, studio, experience, money or equipment to compete. In theory, creativity can compensate for that in some aspects, but not all.
I think a two tier system - everyone starts at teh lower tier, and as they get ribbons and/or based on placement are moved to the upper tier. The person themselves have no choice on where they go. Each challenge is the same but in two tiers. You do well for a while, you move up. you suck, you move down.
This doubles the the chance of getting a ribbon, the creme will still float to the top and the sludge sink. While i don't want to to create an elite class, I do feel that many of us more average photographers are at a disadvantage - be it time, talent or equipment.
This way there is no more work other that a bit of programming to create a 'rank' of T1 or T2. No more challnges to create, enter or vote on. It also will break the challenge entries in two - so perhaps more comments may be made.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:22:14 PM · #17 |
So you should choise your own skill level?...
Hmmm I think I´m choosing the last skill level So I can mabey get a ribbon .... ??
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:30:51 PM · #18 |
I am a very new member, but I had already noticed that this site is growing so quickly, and the skill levels evolving, that a need would exist for some kind of "breaking up". I really do hope these suggestions are examined soon and some kind of version gets implemented. I personally would like to see the skill/equipment levels broken out (not user choice), and perhaps some "types" of photography. Skill level most importantly. I would think the very advanced ones here get bored looking at my type of stuff, and us beginners may get discouraged at times that we have so far to go. I don't actually compete for the ribbons, just here to learn.
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 13:31:14.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:35:33 PM · #19 |
Let's give an example. What if I take really good portraits, but my advertisement-type photographs need work? What category would I be put into week in and week out? The whole idea of the challenges is to give everyone a chance to learn what they can do, execute it their best, submit, and then get feedback from the community so that there is a chance of improvement.
If you put a swing on your original idea, (you say you like taking photos of people) - then maybe other subject matter is a good thing for you to do for challenges to increase your repretoire? ;)
How about a personal challenge.. say something like: "I like to shoot people, so I am going to find a way to effectively incorporate a person/model in each challenge".
Food for thought. |
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:37:49 PM · #20 |
Unfortunately I can't find the public thread(s) where I discussed this idea before (it was a while ago), but I previously came up with what I thought was a good idea to split people up into "levels". But I did find this version that I had saved away:
For lack of a better term, let's call the two levels "Apprentice Level" and "Challenge Level". The idea being that the more experienced/proven photographers would compete amongst themselves at the "Challenge Level", and the folks without a lot of photographic experience would compete against others in the "Apprentice Level". Same challenge topics and all, just twice as many ribbons. All the pictures would still go in to the same pool, and everyone would vote on them together, just like they do now (this avoids the problem of people only voting/commenting on the "Challenge Level" pictures, for example, and leaving the "Apprentice Level" folks behind.)
My thinking on this is to try and increase the quality of submissions, and at the same time, provide a sense of accomplishment to everyone who competes by awarding "points" based on the final placement in the challenges.
Here is how I would propose the system to work, very loosely based on my experience with how AKC dog shows are judged here in the US.
1st, 2nd or 3rd place: 5 point major
4th or 5th place: 4 point major
Any other place in the top 10%: 3 point major
Top 20%: 2 points
Top 30%: 1 point
If final score is below a 3 (1.000 - 2.999): Subtract 1 point
Each person would need 15 points and 2 majors to earn "Challenge" status.
Points would continue to accumulate (even at the "Challenge" level), but majors would not (i.e., once you have both majors, you quit accumulating them. You still earn the 4 points by coming in 4th or 5th, but you only need two majors).
Points earned in each challenge would be displayed in a new column in your "My Profile" page, and if it was where you earned one of your 2 majors, it would be indicated by an "M"; i.e. "5M".
There could also be an a new menu option on the "Community" menu to view photographers by overall Points on a 365-day rolling count. In other words, two new stats would be visible in a profile: 'Lifetime points earned' and 'Points earned in the last year' (updated weekly when the other profile stats are updated). This would show who are currently the most successful photographers on the site, based on their placement in challenges.
I think the point system would be beneficial to those who enter, since even those who don't earn a ribbon can still earn a point for finishing near the top. This should help encourage folks to submit as good a photo as possible, at least those who are serious about becoming better photographers. It should help to encourage "placing well" instead of just "being in the top 3".
Once you've earned "Challenge" status you can't be "demoted" back to "Apprentice Level". It also shouldn't be possible to earn majors in "Speed" challenges or other "extra" challenges (but you could still earn points towards reaching "Challenge Level").
The purpose of the "majors" is to prevent people from "moving up" by what is called (in the dog show world) "singling out". When you "single out", it means you've earned as many non-major points as you need, and now all you need are "majors" to move up. Folks in those situations should be trying extra-hard to submit very high quality entries and not "any old shot" since it does nothing for their standings.
My point scale means that people like ViperMike (even though he doesn't enter any more) would be at "Challenge Level" with just his 3 submissions, so really good, highly successful photographers would move up quickly.
I think the user base at DPC is large enough that there would be enough people in each category to make this feasible, although it would be interesting to do a "dry run" through the existing submissions and see how many people would today be awarded "Challenge" status.
Even if we don't split up the challenges into two categories, I think the "point" idea is worthwhile, since it does provide a sense of "satisfaction" to a lot of entrants who don't make it in the top 3. At least somebody who made it in the Top 20% could tell their spouse "well at least I earned 2 points for coming in 35th" or whatever. It would also be another "data point" that would allow the DPC participants to ranked based on their challenge performance.
[edit to add:] I want to point out that this system would be totally automatic, and that to the user, nothing would really change. You would submit like you do today, vote like you do today, etc. The only visible changes would be two sets of ribbons and some new "stats".
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 13:50:25. |
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:54:04 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Those little guys with the 3 MP cameras would no longer be relegated to the last pages of the challenge results (Though there are exceptions of course). |
That is all psychological! The amount of MP has not such a great influence on how your pics look in a 640x480 format. Judging by the entries in each challenge a lot of people need to study photography articles/books/photographs instead of looking for another camera.
Sure my S602 has limits (especially contrast, wideangle lens, speed, noise and dof/bokeh related), but I just received a copy of a book last week for which I shot and edited some 15+ photo's. They are printed full A4 to very small in color and BW to accompany articles from several writers. They look very good and everyone I spoke to was very positive. I already did a lot of work for a book next year. Could I do better with a dSLR? Sure, a technical improvement especially visable for myself and a few nitpickers, but the subject choice and composition would have been the same (except for DOF).
My biggest improvement (I am far from good) was not moving from the P1 to the S602, it was study of articles on the net (photo.net, dpc, agfa.net, luminous-landscapes.com), reading books (NGC Field Guide, NGC FG Portraits, NGC FG Landscapes, Bob Krist: Spirit of Place, The Art of the Traveling Photographer, The Photoshop Book for digital photographers) and looking at photo's and paintings(here at dpc, the net, NGC magazine, books, newspapers, etc).
The reason why you perhaps see mostly dSLR's at the top is because people who are serious about photography, who can create wonderful photographs often want the best tool to do the job. A bad photographer with a good camera will not suddenly come up on top of a camera-type dedicated challenge.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 01:54:39 PM · #22 |
well thought out and a great idea eddy, leave it to the dogs to lead the way :P
But seriously i agree, I'm sure there are people that get frustrated with their lack of improvement withing a relatively short period of time. This could be a chance to help make more 'winners'
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 02:12:48 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
about points and majors |
Sounds good.
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 02:34:16 PM · #24 |
re: Eddy G's idea.
You know, this is the first idea I've seen to set up tiers that I actually like. And since everyone is still in the same pot you don't have to worry about losing comments or votes. Heck it might even encourage better voting. If every vote counts towards moving people forward, folks might and I stress might, be more inclined to look again at unusual pictures.
The key question is, how hard would this be to implement?
Clara
|
|
|
|
05/26/2004 03:06:46 PM · #25 |
Glad to see some folks understand and appreciate the idea. It really isn't as hard as I may have made it seem.
One thing I wanted to mention. Some might question the need for "majors". The reason for this is to help avoid situations where somebody moves up to the "Challenge Level" too early. Without the major requirement, then for example, you could earn 15 single-points by placing in the 70th percentile (top 30%) in 15 challenges. Does that mean you are ready to compete in the "Challenge Level"? Probably not. The "major" requirement is to "prove" that you can compete at the "Challenge Level" by requiring a placement in the top 10% twice (and with a 300-entry challenge, there would be 30 entrants who earn "majors" in that challenge, meaning potentially 30 new "Challenge Level" folks if they all had another major and at least 12 points. =)
So at a minimum, you could place in the 70th-89th percentile 9 times, and at the 90th percentile or above twice to move up to "Challenge Level". That's eleven "decent" challenge entries. Not that difficult of a requirement for somebody who is serious and wants to compete against the likes of Kiwiness and jjbeguin. =] Or you could be like ViperMike and just get 3 ribbons and move up after 3 challenges.
(Obviously the actual numbers I suggested are just that -- suggestions for the sake of discussing the concept, but I think they are pretty reasonable.)
Message edited by author 2004-05-26 15:14:23. |
|
