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DPChallenge Forums >> Current Challenge >> A thought about Tilting...
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11/02/2009 08:55:16 AM · #1
In the Three techniques Challenge I got many comments claiming there wasn't much of a tilt to mention but also comments saying that the image worked. I was over a 7 score three times in the week but realized that was what was banging me down. No complaint about the score or placement but that some people didn't take into account subtlety...and whether of course the image worked with the choice I made...

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So, on the eve of the Tilt Challenge I figure it's worth a note. The way I look at it every technique, no matter how strong or subtle should enhance the image...end of story. I tried a number of degrees on my tilt but decided this was the smoothest, without looking totally silly and over-the-top. You would have to admit, that side by side they are both quite different and there is clearly a tilted effect.

So, why were people concerned with the degree of the tilt and not the quality the choice produced? An earthquake tilt would have looked comic. I also thought "Portrait" was more of a genre and I wanted to post techniques UNLESS by portrait they meant it as a compositional aspect as opposed to landscape. But I wasn't sure 100%, what they meant...so, I went with "tilt".

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I think the battle is trying to use techniques wisely and with purpose but NOT gratuitously. It's something I've noticed in many of the technique Challenges, over the years but is rarely addressed, directly.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 11:57:31.
11/02/2009 08:58:08 AM · #2
Didn't really look like it was tilted, more like a slightly sideways glance that some people will do.
11/02/2009 09:10:35 AM · #3
I agree with glad2badad - even side-by-side, it doesn't look like a tilted angle or photo, just that the MAN has a turned or tipped his head a very small amount.
11/02/2009 09:13:54 AM · #4
Originally posted by kashi:

even side-by-side, it doesn't look like a tilted angle ...


Are you saying that side by side that, you don't see a tilt or a difference between the two versions?

I do see a difference between the two...however delicate and subtle, the effect straight up from the final are different. Again...delicate but not insignificant. IMHO.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 09:26:35.
11/02/2009 09:22:46 AM · #5
Great job on your finish! I agree that the 'tilt' is not significant...I don't look at it and say 'that is tilted' .. but you did great.
11/02/2009 09:29:14 AM · #6
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Are you saying that side by side that, you don't see a tilt or a difference between the two versions?


No - that is not even close to what I said.

What I said was that it looks like the MAN - the subject - was the one giving the tilt to his head, as opposed to the photograph itself being tilted.

Originally posted by kashi:

... that the MAN has a turned or tipped his head a very small amount


Message edited by author 2009-11-02 09:29:59.
11/02/2009 09:33:00 AM · #7
BTW I do the same thing cooking. I love...love...love, using spices and herbs to the dgree where people can sense them and feel that there's something present BUT can't identify them.

It took years to develop a delicate hand but made my food stand out.

Originally posted by kashi:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

Are you saying that side by side that, you don't see a tilt or a difference between the two versions?


No - that is not even close to what I said.

What I said was that it looks like the MAN - the subject - was the one giving the tilt to his head, as opposed to the photograph itself being tilted.

Originally posted by kashi:

... that the MAN has a turned or tipped his head a very small amount


Sorry that's how it read to me. No offense.

Let me ask people this (not personal)...

I wrote down Tilt" in my title. So, I made the claim...the statement that I tilted the frame, which I did, in fact do. Again, it's subtle but it was done.

Now, some voters are projecting/claiming the he was simply tilting his head slightly...as people often do BUT he, in fact that wasn't the case. The minor tilt was to the frame and as some said, it looked like his head so, they must have sensed something...?

Now, if people did sense some angle and I claimed the reason to be a tilted frame, why would they make an (incorrect) assumption and dismiss that? BTW I don't mind at all if people didn't like the shot...I applaud that but I'm working under the assumption that with a pretty high 6.87, most people were willing to go with my claim and say "no, this is something else".

It was at or above a 7 until Saturday and with another 50-80 votes, considering it was a very low voting Challenge it may have stayed there. Again, this isn't about the score but I suppose a mindset.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 09:56:08.
11/02/2009 09:34:19 AM · #8
Originally posted by pawdrix:

Originally posted by kashi:

even side-by-side, it doesn't look like a tilted angle ...


Are you saying that side by side that, you don't see a tilt or a difference between the two versions?

I do see a difference between the two...however delicate and subtle, the effect straight up from the final are different.


There is a difference, but the final image doesn't scream "tilted!" I understand you used the technique very effectively, but that just gives you "quality image" points, not "meets the challenge" points from me. I didn't vote, but I would've deducted a point.
11/02/2009 09:35:41 AM · #9
Originally posted by pawdrix:

BTW I do the same thing cooking. I love...love...love, using spices and herbs to the dgree where people can sense them and feel that there's something present BUT can't indentify them.

It took years to develop a delicate hand but made my food stand out.

Ah, but the voters are voting on "meets the challenge" as well here. You don't cook to meet a "spicy" challenge, but here you're shooting to meet a "three techniques" challenge, where people are expecting the three techniques to be pretty obvious.
11/02/2009 09:41:13 AM · #10
It was tilted just enough to give the appearance he was cocking his head, and it enhanced the impact of the image just right. I could tell from the background that there was an induced tilt.

Many people will not see a subtle use of a technique and you have to hit them over the head with it. I may be guilty of it at times myself. Rule of thirds was the same way, if the subject was not plopped precisely on a set of crosshairs, some would not see it's usage.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 09:43:04.
11/02/2009 09:43:38 AM · #11
In the image posted above, the way the light is working on the man's collar works to create an illusion about what is level. It looks like one shoulder is lower than the other, though it is just the way the light is hitting the one side of his collar. I like the tilted version because it improves the perceived eye contact for me.
11/02/2009 10:04:41 AM · #12
I agree it didn't "scream" tilted BUT did it have to "scream" anything, to in fact, meet the Challenge?

It did meet the Challenge...right?

If I'm disappointed in anything it's that people elected to dismiss my claim of tilted, which is something I would never do. I do understand that it does have that "tilted head" appearance BUT since it wasn't that (after all)...AND since it wasn't...why would people automatically go there?

I'm just saying, I find that very interesting and thought it was worth a note. Let me ask this...is it fair to point out or ask viewers to look for and appreciate subtlety OR is the sledgehammer effect necessary to "meet the Challenge"?

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 10:38:59.
11/02/2009 10:45:55 AM · #13
Originally posted by pawdrix:

... Let me ask this...is it fair to point out or ask viewers to look for and appreciate subtlety OR is the sledgehammer effect necessary to "meet the Challenge"?

You've been here how long? :-)
11/02/2009 10:50:48 AM · #14
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

It was tilted just enough to give the appearance he was cocking his head, and it enhanced the impact of the image just right. I could tell from the background that there was an induced tilt.

Many people will not see a subtle use of a technique and you have to hit them over the head with it. I may be guilty of it at times myself. Rule of thirds was the same way, if the subject was not plopped precisely on a set of crosshairs, some would not see it's usage.


My thoughts exactly. Comparing the two versions, the slight addition of the tilt did more than just slightly improve the shot. With the cigar in his mouth the tilt really makes his eyes even more so the focal point. I agree that the background gives the hint of the tilt and that should be enough, doesn't need more tilt as far as I can tell. The comparison between the posted and original version really shows the difference. I really enjoy learning and exploring how little changes make the shot. The image hit all the three marks very well. If this was for just the Tilted II challenge, maybe I would've liked it to be a little more pronounced but would still score the shot well. Hard for me to be objective since my opinion on that seems to change, LOL. Maybe it does have enough title for the tilted challenge. Either way thank you, Pawdrix, for posting this. I enjoy these kinds of discussions. Oh and I didn't vote in the challenge, this is a fresh image to my eyes.

p.s. On another note, doesn't the man in the shot look a lot like Don Knotts(from the Andy Griffith Show)!? ;)

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 10:54:40.
11/02/2009 11:00:36 AM · #15
Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by pawdrix:

... Let me ask this...is it fair to point out or ask viewers to look for and appreciate subtlety OR is the sledgehammer effect necessary to "meet the Challenge"?

You've been here how long? :-)


Geeez. I'm not talking about what IS. We all know what IS but are we all content or complacent, to the point where we just roll over and say "whatever" or do you try and discuss issues you may have?

It's a fair discussion and I asked fair questions. Nothing wrong with that. ;)

I have noticed that some things have been progressing on this site with these talks and Side Challenges AND I also believe it's shown directly in the scores I've been getting. My latest 10-12 entries would never have done as well a few years back as they have recently without some movement in the way people think.

Honestly, I have a bit of a vested interest in this type of discussion because it will determine if I'll bother to enter Challenges or I guess, participate here, in the long run. It's not a super big deal but I like to see movement. ;)

Techo - I'm really glad you related to the choices I made and saw the exact the reasons, I chose to go the way I did. The eye's hypnotize a little more with the tilt as opposed to the piercing effect, in the straight-up version. In the end, the image is what it is, regardless of how we dice things up. But I'm sure happy it all makes sense.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 11:19:35.
11/02/2009 11:19:55 AM · #16
I gave this image a 9... I think it is easily one of the very best in the challenge. I remarked to myself when scoring it that the tilt was exceptionally effective, that the image would not work anywhere near as well if it were rotated to the implied vertical. It never occurred to me that it was a "requirement" of the "tilted angle" category that the tilt could only come from camera rotation; had someone shown me a shot with a single tree leaning at a pronounced angle across a level horizon, I'd have called that "tilted angle". Where did this *camera orientation* requirement come from, anyway?

Gawd, that's a level of nit-picking even *I* would have a hard time rising to. There's tilt in the image, it's utterly effective, end of story, move on, nothing else to see here :-)

R.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 11:36:43.
11/02/2009 11:50:59 AM · #17
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Yo_Spiff - The title Finding Weegee comes from the "famous" photographer Arthur Fellig...a.k.a Weegee The Famous

He actually lived right on my block here in NYC for the last years of his life and oddly, I was thinking about him the day I got this shot. I was considering getting a book of his work the same day so, when I saw that guy walking down the street with a Pork Pie hat like Weegee sometimes wore, chomping on that huge cigar...it was just fate.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 12:43:19.
11/02/2009 12:02:41 PM · #18
It's a great photo and it is very clear that the subject is tilted with respect to the frame. IMHO it doesn't matter if the camera is tilted sideways with respect to the gravity vector or not - composition inside the frame is all that counts, and that head, which is the only in-focus subject, IS tilted! DPC'ers can be so narrow-minded about the rules, don't let them get to you. And you still did great in the challenge - congratulations!
11/02/2009 01:09:09 PM · #19
IMO it is tilted. Great shot and edit. One of my favorite shots of the challenge.
11/02/2009 01:18:04 PM · #20
Steve - It isn't tilted....no way, no how. Just to show you, I decided to fave it so I can open it up time and again and laugh at you for failing to meet the challenge again. Silly Steve. You will never learn...

;-P
11/02/2009 03:58:36 PM · #21
Originally posted by bassbone:

Steve - It isn't tilted....

;-P


LOLOLOL... I kinda know where the shot stands, at the very least, in my heart as I think it's one of my best this year.

It's of course, a portrait, it has bokeh and where there's bokeh...there's blur. In advanced I could have probably edited it to either low key OR a contrasty high key, no problem. Looking at the original, ROT was an option and someone mentioned the cigar, as a leading line. I wrote in another thread that I thought I had 4 elements listed and probably could have listed 7 in my title...however slight and still not dnmc.

I know we all hate 2's, 3's and 4's but I also think it's a damn shame to compromise your vision in order to avoid those votes, if at times it may be some of the viewers/voters, that are missing the action. Since the tilt here, even though subtle...to me, was a light touch and actually an integral, key part of the image, even though the portrait aspect was clearer and more obvious, for some. Saying to yourself...."let me call it this, so these 20-30 people get it" or "or let me change that because it's not clear enough for group X" etc. doesn't sit well with me. I understand connecting with viewers but why reduce yourself...when it takes more rocks and creative juice to go the other way.

Ya gotta stick to your guns sometimes...right?

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 16:02:21.
11/02/2009 04:15:08 PM · #22
How many of you who think it is not tilted enough also think it is not black and white enough either?....to be called black and white!

It's a great photo....and it's tilted too.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 16:16:02.
11/02/2009 04:32:54 PM · #23
Originally posted by pawdrix:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' Yo_Spiff - The title Finding Weegee comes from the "famous" photographer Arthur Fellig...a.k.a Weegee The Famous


Thanks. I feel ignorant, but have now been educated. Perhaps I should spend some time reading up on well known photographers and their work.

Added: Had a look at the site on him you linked to. Really interesting. One of the first photos was of some kids on the lower east side in 1937. My dad would have been about the same age, growing up in the Bronx at that time.

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 16:37:08.
11/02/2009 05:15:44 PM · #24
Much more dynamic with the tilt--makes me feel like he is looking right through me. The straight very blah in comparison.

Interesting link re: Weegee. I googled the phrase but didn't come up with the website you listed. Your image(in voting) was #5 or 6 in the google results; today it's #1.

eta; how did he feel about having his picture taken?

Message edited by author 2009-11-02 17:29:03.
11/02/2009 05:19:41 PM · #25
I wonder if the people that voted this down because it wasn't "tilted" enough, also vote other challenge photos down for having a 3 degree tilt in the horizon that wasn't straightened.
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