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05/25/2004 06:59:37 AM · #1 |
What do people want me to do when I vote 1,2 or 3? Should I comment? Like when it is just photo that is just so ugly that I can't look at it? Should I then say, THIS IS UGLY ? I can't comment and tell people I give 1 what they should have done because if you get 1 then you have realy done something wrong.
And people don't like comments that does hurt them. .... what should I do! |
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05/25/2004 07:25:59 AM · #2 |
From the rules:
Users are highly encouraged to leave comments on a photograph by using the comment box under each photograph. Criticism, praise, and other constructive comments are all welcome. Blatantly slanderous, rude, or profane comments may be removed, and the owners of such comments may be suspended or lose their accounts.
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05/25/2004 07:33:11 AM · #3 |
If I was receiving the low score I would like to know why. Be constructive and give examples. Don't tell them the score though :)
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05/25/2004 07:46:05 AM · #4 |
A negative comment doesn't have to be rude. It doesn't have to be artificially positive, either ("This is a great photo, there are only the following 400 mistakes: ..." ;). I get mostly positive comments that are nice but aren't very useful ("Nice picture!" or something like that), but I'd rather get some criticism from the people who give me a low score. Even if they just put a short sentence or two there with a reason.
I know that I tend to comment on good pictures more, as well. But I believe it's much more useful to comment on the bad ones, even if that's harder.
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05/25/2004 08:54:49 AM · #5 |
Just comment: "Take a better picture of something else."
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05/25/2004 09:04:00 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by StevePax:
Just comment: "Take a better picture of something else." |
I hope you were joking. I don't see this as constructive criticism.
My two cents: Tell them what you didn't like about it. If there's anything you think you could have done with that subject better, tell them as a suggestion.
For criticism, select from this list or make your own:
Subject out of focus
not a compelling subject because...
composition could be improved by...
underexposed, try...
overexposed, try...
highlights blown out, try...
noise is high, try lower compression
noise is high, try neatimage or..
or
try facing the camera away from you... ;)
etc.
Note the ellipses above. It's best if you can suggest something too.
Now watch, it will be my photo ;)
Edit: (Or you could try to use the multitiered voting scale to generate at least rating style comments...see the forums for that.)
Message edited by author 2004-05-25 09:05:05. |
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05/25/2004 09:46:37 AM · #7 |
I mainly leave comments on photos where I can see that something could be done better or at a different way.
Photographers wich makes technically good and beautiful pics dont need my advice. |
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05/25/2004 10:32:13 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by garlic:
I mainly leave comments on photos where I can see that something could be done better or at a different way.
Photographers wich makes technically good and beautiful pics dont need my advice. |
Maybe they don't need it, but I think regardless of talent (or skill) all photographers love to hear how their picture affected someone. If they took a shot which evoked a reaction in you then even if it's obvious, I think they'd love to hear that how and why their shot "worked" for you as a viewer.
Some shots are so technically flawed that artistic comments aren't appropriate - you need a foundation first. But for shots that are technically acceptable (or better) its nice to help that photographer develop not only the technical photography skills, but the artistic as well.
In finding the expression of how a picture affected me, I feel like I'm developing my own style of photography by better understanding elements that work (or don't work) for me. |
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05/25/2004 10:41:14 AM · #9 |
I like Neil's comments above (nshapiro). The 'Try' is a good thing to add. I will sometimes write, 'you might try . . .' But I just haven't seen many photos that were beyond hope. In fact, it is usually just one or two elements that detract from a good shot: appropriate focus, or harsh highlights or something like that. I love photos of things that are ugly--as long as the photo makes the ugly thing look interesting.
Perhaps 'ugly' is not the right word. 'Ineffective' or some other word that is less subjective might be better and might be what the original posting meant?
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05/25/2004 10:46:25 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by dsidwell:
... Perhaps 'ugly' is not the right word. 'Ineffective' or some other word that is less subjective might be better and might be what the original posting meant? |
This is the essence of tact. I've been on the receiving end of comments from both dsidwell and nshapiro. While not always praising my images, they consistently - and very tactfully - let me know where I may have fallen short.
-len |
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05/25/2004 10:56:42 AM · #11 |
There is always something good to say about every image. If you start with that then move on to constructive criticism with suggested improvements you comments will be well accepted by the photographer.
If you can't think of anything good to say or be able to make positive suggestions for improvement then don't comment.
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05/25/2004 12:22:16 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by dsidwell:
I like Neil's comments above (nshapiro). The 'Try' is a good thing to add. I will sometimes write, 'you might try . . .' But I just haven't seen many photos that were beyond hope. In fact, it is usually just one or two elements that detract from a good shot: appropriate focus, or harsh highlights or something like that. I love photos of things that are ugly--as long as the photo makes the ugly thing look interesting.
Perhaps 'ugly' is not the right word. 'Ineffective' or some other word that is less subjective might be better and might be what the original posting meant? |
The word ugly is just because I am terrible in english ... sorry :P |
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05/25/2004 12:36:11 PM · #13 |
Although I mark most comments 'helpful' as a matter of courtesy, I do not, generally, consider them helpful. Critiques can be helpful. Good critiques should be helpful without exception. I personally value sincere attempts at critique as the most helpful kind of comment and would prefer it to the polished professional kind.
While personal observations, views and are not without value, these should be subordinated to an interest in the photo under discussion as opposed to being derivative of preconceived notions to which it is expected to conform.
No matter how well intended a comment may be, its effect can be an unnecessary and unwarranted irritation, when it becomes clear that no reasonable study has preceded the conclusions of the writer. I say: look at the picture, consider it. Ask questions of it. Ask yourself these questions before faulting the photo, or even worse - its author - for your lack of consideration/investigation.
Include questions in your critique of a work. Leave blanks in your writing, if you do not know something, particularly when opinions outweigh a conviction. By all means speculate, probe, but make it clear that you are, indeed, merely speculating.
Refrain from discussing the photographer. Consider the picture instead. Avoid starting sentences with 'You', especially when followed with 'should'. Try not to ask questions, which cannot be answered, i.e. 'What is the meaning/message of this photo?' No one, really, understands anything, least of all the one who takes or makes a picture.
The more artistically accomplished a work, the greater the certainty that the photo itself is an investigation into the nature of a thing or circumstance.
On the other hand, if an image has been studied not only for its technical aspects but also for some kind of context, for its emotional quality, its 'range', 'energy' and ordering of values, then, perhaps, one can say so and have the beginnings for a rudimentary critique.
The tone should be dictated by the role best suited for a useful communication. Potential roles are: peer, student or teacher. The role of a student is the most universally profitable one, IMHO, for all involved.
Message edited by author 2004-05-25 12:37:34.
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05/25/2004 12:47:41 PM · #14 |
As a basic rule, the addition of the phrase 'in my opinion', or some other marker, notwithstanding (damn I love that word) your belief in its implicit presence, always helps.
For myself, I find that the vast majority of my comments are critical, as opposed to simple praise. That's the way my brain functions - though I try to couch that criticism in the most polite way time allows. Partly I believe there are plenty of people here who only really say nice things about photos, and not enough hardness of judgement; and partly because I personally always find comments that suggest a percieved problem with my work to be vastly more useful, even if not as simply pleasant, as the 'wow!' type comment.
Only very very rarely do people comment at greater length than a single sentence, and I also try to redress that balance in my own small way. It's just a question of giving back really - this site is directly responsible for an unquantifiable improvement in almost all aspects of my own photography - technique, approach, thought, knowledge, appreciation, imagination, visualisation - that really it seems the least I can do to be sincere about a few other folks entries.
E
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05/25/2004 12:58:25 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by e301:
...Only very very rarely do people comment at greater length than a single sentence, and I also try to redress that balance in my own small way. It's just a question of giving back really... |
There is, to me, much gist and pith in the above.
A critique, I believe, can reflect and extend the energy set free via a good photograph. What more graceful way but to return these things to the source!
Message edited by author 2004-05-25 12:59:13.
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05/25/2004 01:31:05 PM · #16 |
I have a hard time with commenting on the particulalry bad shots. Usually the problem is visual clutter which beginners rarely notice. It isn't to harsh to say something like, 'this would be more successful with less visual clutter" then I specify the particulars (a cut off head, a stuffed animal, messy blankets, etc).
If there is something in the shot that looks like it was intentional but I think it looks really bad, I say something like, "this.(effect, background, idea, etc.) isn't working hard enough for this shot". I will mention it when I shot looks like snap shot and I'll be sure to mention if I think it is a good snap with potential. Some are just plain bad.
Some shots have so much wrong it is hard not to sound overly critical. The trick is to use words that don't carry a lot of emotional resonance. |
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05/25/2004 01:34:37 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by birgir:
, THIS IS UGLY ? I can't comment and tell people I give 1 what they should have done because if you get 1 then you have realy done something wrong.
And people don't like comments that does hurt them. .... what should I do! |
IMHO the phrase "This is ugly" is pointless. If you don't like something, there is a reason that you don't. It is important to relate that to the photographer, the WHY, not the opinion. I always comment on any score less than three. If a shot is that far out of the normal range it should be woth telling the person why.
That I hate a shot will not help the shooter take a shot I like better unless I can tell them what I disliked. Subject. Colors. Focus. Lighting. Exposure. Depth of feild. Composition. Post processing. If it is a 10 they got them all right. If it is a 1 they got them all wrong. In case of the 1 pick the one they did least badly and say " i like the direction this is going in because..." Then tell them specifically what they might do better to suit your taste.
My three year old daughter used to say " this is dumb I don't like it. " We trained her to skip the "dumb" part and say what bothered her about it. Now she says " this is too salty " or "I don't like cabbage" and we can work to make her happier. As long as all she told us was that she didn't like it, we didn't know what to change.
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05/25/2004 01:44:53 PM · #18 |
One problem I have with comments is when I don't like the picture and I can't quite put my finger on why, other than I just find it boring, perhaps. I don't like to leave a comment like, "This just isn't working for me but I can't quite but my finger on it." because that is basically saying, "I don't like it and I can't be bothered figuring out why." Unfortunately, this is exactly what happens in the case of some photos. I tend to avoid leaving comments in that case but I feel bad about it.
Now that I know I can revise my votes and leave comments at my leisure, I spend a little more time on a photo like that to figure out what isn't working. It can be very trying on my patience as a person with ADHD but I feel it's only fair. I'm still dismayed at how infrequently voters leave comments. I got quite a few for my Centered entry which pretty much all said the same thing, with the exception of two (apparently blind) voters. I was so sick of that photo long before the voting was done.
But my most recent entries have all done abysmally in terms of comments considering there relatively low scores. Of course, if other voters work like me, making the comments after they've voted, I guess I can't complain.
Unusual Viewpoint
Votes: 71
Avg Vote: 4.2676
Comments: 0
Banana (This one has me pretty disillusioned because I think it is pretty good compared to the majority of what I voted on. Perhaps I'm just delusional? At any rate, my opinion really hasn't changed about it. I still think it's pretty good. I'd give it a 6 or 7 ;D)
Votes: 110
Avg Vote: 4.7000
Comments: 1 (Comment was simply, "9." Nice vote but not a helpful comment. :D)
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05/25/2004 02:04:14 PM · #19 |
As a beginner in photography, I like getting constructive feedback on my photos and I feel that it helps me in getting better and better every time.
What I hate though, is when I get the one or two very rude and derogatory comments towards a photo when at the same time so many people are giving me good comments.
I don't know why I get these rude comments and most of the time when I go to the profile of a person who gave me such comments, they either have never submitted themselves, or they're photos aren't very good.
I think that one way to cut down on this problem is to only let people who have submitted photos vote.
Mike
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05/25/2004 02:31:05 PM · #20 |
| when i comment on bad photos, i always try to find something good about it and start my comment with that. almost all photos have at least one good thing...a great color, a thoughtful message, a pleasing composition. even if it's not technically good, often the message still comes through. so i'll start my comment with, "i understand what you're trying to say with this image, but..." then i'll proceed to the more technical aspect of critique. |
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05/25/2004 02:32:38 PM · #21 |
If it's so bad that you need to give it a 1 or a 2, why is it so bad? Is it out of focus, bad lighting, bad composition, bad subject, not in line with the challenge, non-artistic or snap shotish... If you hate it, there has to be a reason you hate it. And persoanlly I rarely give anyone a 3 or lower without a comment, just as I rarely give an 8 or higher without a comment.
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05/25/2004 03:06:00 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by utopian mang:
As a beginner in photography, I like getting constructive feedback on my photos and I feel that it helps me in getting better and better every time. |
Those of us that go to the trouble to try to provide constructive feedback really appreciate it when it's marked as helpful. Mike, I went through your past submissions and notice that you didn't mark many as helpful in the most recent challenges ...
I like to provide what I think are helpful comments on at least 25% of the photos for every competition, but how am I to get better at commenting if I don't get the slightest indication? I must say though, I do get at least 5 PMs per challenge of people letting me know that my feedback was helpful in some way in addition to checking the box.
If I had a choice, I would not comment on people's photos that don't seem to be interested in a little acknowledgement that they read what I took the time to say.
That said, when I vote, I comment on all my 4s and below and all my 7s and higher and then any in the middle that beg a comment from me. I try to find at least two nice things to say about every photo when I comment because there are so many good things in my opinion. |
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05/25/2004 03:11:26 PM · #23 |
| I wouldn't really mind comments such as "ugly" or "uninteresting" (not that I have received any ;) ) Obviously I would prefer to have a longer, in-depth explanation, but the one word comments do help explain a low score and in my opinion are better than a low vote with no comment. Even with that one word you have some insight into what the voter was thinking. I might not agree, but at least I understand their vote and their opinion. I personally think we should encourage better comments, but I don't think we should discourage ANY comments. I mark all of my received comments helpful because I am interested in hearing every opnion, even if I don't necessary agree with the comment or could construe it as rude. |
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05/25/2004 03:18:42 PM · #24 |
I have just joined this group and I'm still learning the ropes. So far I've voted on three challenges and have not made any comments. I've voted on all images and not just the "good" ones. I'm refining my point system as I go moving slightly downward in my average as I get familiar with things and realize I need more space at the top to give the "perfect" images their due.
About comments - so far I've not had time to add them. Also, being new I feel like I need to know a bit more about how things work before I stick my oar in. I have submitted two entries to challenges. The one that is doing well has gotten lots of comments. I really appreciate them but most are kudos and not suggestions for improvement. Of course I like those but I especially like the ones with suggestions. The image that is averaging around 5 has gotten one comment. That's the image that I'd like to get comments on because if it is a "5" there is something different I might do to improve it. The one comment was useful and helped explain the rating for that image. So I for one appreciate comments on even my lesser pictures. If it were in the 1-3 range I'd really wonder what was up. Giving comments to images you really don't like would be very hard though. So I'm thinking that images you rate between 4 and 6 might be good candidates for constructive criticism comments.
Ann |
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05/25/2004 03:21:44 PM · #25 |
I agree it would be nice if more people acknowledged when a review was helpful with that little checkmark, and when you appreciate all comments, I don't think it hurts to mark them all helpful (that's what I do).
I do find it a little discouraging if I've taken the time to post a constructive comment and someone doesn't mark the box: does that mean they don't agree, don't appreciate my coments, or just don't mark the box ever? When you look at my profile, and 1/4 of my comments aren't marked as helpful, does that mean I'm not a helpful critic? (I know it doesn't, but what would others think?) |
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