| Author | Thread |
|
|
07/29/2009 07:27:31 PM · #126 |
Yes, I have to admit, the procedure does seem gruesome. While there is a lot of debate about whether a fetus pre-25 weeks gestation can feel pain, my understanding is that anesthesia is being administered to fetuses in the condition of this woman's fetus and at developmental stages earlier than 25 weeks.
The point is that late-term abortions usually occur with a "wanted" fetus. For this reason alone, late-term abortions are rare and the vast majority a result of serious medical problems. These problems can include conditions like anencephaly, an absence of most of the brain and the spinal cord. While a fetus with anencephaly can be technically born alive, I fail to see the compassion in forcing a woman to carry a fetus with this condition to term. In a case like this, or in the case of a dead fetus, the question of pain and anesthesia would seem a moot point. But if the issue is gross deformity or maternal crisis and there is any question that the fetus can feel pain, I think certainly one should err on the side of compassion and administer anesthesia. |
|
|
|
07/29/2009 08:35:22 PM · #127 |
| due to anti-abortion laws, some women died because they are forced to do abortion by non-legal doctors. |
|
|
|
07/29/2009 11:20:51 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Should we kill our child just to make us feel better? |
Oh, yes! Abso-fuckin'-lutely!
Can't you tell that's what I'm all about?
BTW, you failed my little test miserably.....
The correct answer would have been to say that you would support whatever it is that your wife wanted to do about the situation since she was not only the one who was assaulted, she's the one responsible for carrying the child to term and then nurturing it.
If you cannot see that the most important aspect of that horrible scenario is that whatever is best for her, is what's best because if you don't support her wishes 100% in this situation, you know nothing of how to have a relationship.
If she's completely against having the child, then you're equivalently raping her all over again to insist that she carry the child.
And I'm sorry, but on no level is that child yours.....DEFINITELY hers, but certainly not yours.
Message edited by author 2009-07-29 23:27:02.
|
|
|
|
07/29/2009 11:32:01 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Second.....what if.......your child (NOT the one above)is born four months premature, with his lungs outside his body, incapable of breathing on his own, and needing hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical care to become a viable human being.... |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Do I have the hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend? If it could be done, why not? If we don't have the money, then there is no choice.
I was in a car accident that shattered my leg. I spent 1 day in the emergency room and 5 days in intensive care. Medical bills totaling more than $500,000. Luckily I had insurance, otherwise I wouldn't be walking.
Should I have been aloud to live? Why not just put me down like a horse? |
It's not about the money, it's your stance in meddling with nature, God's will, or whatever else you believe in that won't allow you to abort a child.
Don't the same rules apply if the child isn't viable?
Your car accident has nothing to do with this issue and your being ALLOWED to live isn't the issue.
I'm talking about the premie who cannot survive without a respirator and surgery.
That's DEFINITELY messing with the system.
|
|
|
|
07/29/2009 11:56:00 PM · #130 |
I gotta vent about a couple of things......
I hate being tarred with the brush of baby killer/murderer just because I don't blindly believe that every accident of nature should be given the chance to come into a world of misery.
I don't just believe in aborting children for whatever half-baked reason that the pro-lifers want to try and tag me with simply because I don't agree with them.
And all to many kids today are just that......born into a life of misery, have no chance at any quality of life, and IMO, some just shouldn't be forced into being born, ESPECIALLY to parents who don't want them and have even less desire to raise them.
If you think that a decision like this would be something I would make casually, you're dead wrong.
I have a daughter because we chose life.....and it wasn't a choice that we ever thought we'd make.
But it wasn't out of any belief system that sid we shouldn't abort a child, nor any pressure from any outside reason. We made the decision on what was right for us and whether or not we thought we could do right by the child.
Yeah.....US!!!! OUR choice!
We live in a much different age nowadays, not the least of which is the ability to save women and their infants from a natural selection system that would normally kill thrm off. We're seriously over-populating this world, and there are way too many unwanted children NOW!
With free will comes some tremendous responsibilities, and you cannot have a pat answer for any of them. You may have to decide some day whether someone lives or dies because of a part you have to play in your and their lives......and no matter what you do, you'll be haunted by that decision for the rest of your life.
Such is the lot of us humans, and always will be.
BTW, despite having superb medical care in a fine facility and being well-educated and practiced in what we were supposed to do, my wife almost died in delivery....
This is something that still does happen, it's a fact of life. That brings me back to one other point.
Any man who thinks he has the right to tell a woman that she should risk her life because of his beliefs really needs to think about that.
'Cause guess what? She dies, that child is your responsibility then.
But somehow that never gets taken into consideration.....
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 12:18:13 AM · #131 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I gotta vent about a couple of things......
I hate being tarred with the brush of baby killer/murderer just because I don't blindly believe that every accident of nature should be given the chance to come into a world of misery. |
crayon's stand:
just because i support legalizing abortion, doesn't mean i support abortion.
and, women should be given the rights to choose
it may seem contradictory, but it isn't
Message edited by author 2009-07-30 00:20:04. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 02:29:20 AM · #132 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I gotta vent about a couple of things......
|
Goddammit...it pangs me to agree with this 'other' Nikon shooter they call Jeb, BUT, here, I HAVE NO ARGUMENT. There is no way that you or anyone else could prepare me, OR MY BELIEF SYSTEM, to make a decision that involved a potential life v. a continued lifestyle. Your god says this...my god says that. How can you possibly judge or decide without being the woman that is staring life dead in they eyes of decision? My world and dcareer are based on teh care of children, but I can count numerous times that the idea of that 'child' should have never even survived. Women know their bodies. Please continue allow women to be sovereign over their bodies. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 10:37:19 AM · #133 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Truth be told, I'm curious as to the OP's motinve in starting the thread.
Has all the earmarks of being inflammatory..... |
I'd guess so yes. Calling the thread 'Culture of Death' does seem to imply so. |
And yet people just keep responding to them, no matter how obviously inflammatory they are, like good little trained monkeys. Eeee eeee oooh! Inflammatory! Ooo oooo EEEEE.. must hit keys! |
Ahhh thanks for that reply, i cant believe how much your response made me genuinely laugh out loud... not just one of those el oh el's
haha monkeys :D |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 12:05:10 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The correct answer would have been to say that you would support whatever it is that your wife wanted to do about the situation since she was not only the one who was assaulted... |
That's not how marriage works (at least our marriage). Granted, I wasn't assulted, but if my wife is hurting, the family is hurting. Yes, I would support my wife making the best decision for the family.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...she's the one responsible for carrying the child to term and then nurturing it. |
So she's doing all the work herself? Sorry, that's not how it works in my family. We're both in it together. She's carrying the baby, but I'm taking care of her in all that I do.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
And I'm sorry, but on no level is that child yours.....DEFINITELY hers, but certainly not yours. |
Not being the sperm donor doesn't mean I'm not the father. If my wife has a baby, it's my child. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 12:11:16 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's not about the money, it's your stance in meddling with nature, God's will, or whatever else you believe in that won't allow you to abort a child.
Don't the same rules apply if the child isn't viable?
Your car accident has nothing to do with this issue and your being ALLOWED to live isn't the issue.
I'm talking about the premie who cannot survive without a respirator and surgery.
That's DEFINITELY messing with the system. |
You're talking about extraordinary measures. No, you don't have to go through extraordinary measures to support your child.
But pulling the child out of your wife's womb and sucking their brains out (late term abortion) or other abortion techniques, that definitely messing with the system. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 12:41:28 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
So she's doing all the work herself? Sorry, that's not how it works in my family. We're both in it together. She's carrying the baby, but I'm taking care of her in all that I do. |
Please explain to me how anything you do affects the growing fetus in her womb.
She *IS* doing all the work herself!
Your attitude and sense of self is overpowering facts and sense.
You may believe that what you do actually does something, but other than being a helpful errand boy and possibly helping her state of mind, your input is negligible.
I cannot believe how much credit you give yourself.
I really wish some women would weigh in on this with some views.
Message edited by author 2009-07-30 12:41:52. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 12:52:42 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
It's not about the money, it's your stance in meddling with nature, God's will, or whatever else you believe in that won't allow you to abort a child.
Don't the same rules apply if the child isn't viable?
Your car accident has nothing to do with this issue and your being ALLOWED to live isn't the issue.
I'm talking about the premie who cannot survive without a respirator and surgery.
That's DEFINITELY messing with the system. |
Originally posted by Nullix:
You're talking about extraordinary measures. No, you don't have to go through extraordinary measures to support your child.
But pulling the child out of your wife's womb and sucking their brains out (late term abortion) or other abortion techniques, that definitely messing with the system. |
Knock it off with the horror/ugliness garbage!
I have at NO poiunt ever advocated late term abortions, and I won't have you accusing me of being some kind of monster with your "Sucking out the brains" analogy.
I told you before I advocate choice, and you not only don't have a clue of my beliefs, you obviously are bound and determined to be ugly about it with anyone who doesn't share your beliefs.
You've already made it readily apparent that your system is unbalanced since you think it's okay to salvage a fetus that's been rejected by the womb, but it's not okay to abort under any circumstances.
That's a double standard.
Just for the record, that child is my nephew, who is 22 now and doing fine. I just don't understand why it was okay to mess with him being ejected from my sister's womb for some lack of viability......there was no car wreck or trauma involved......he was just rejected.....but yet you cannot see the way clear to abort a fetus conceived in the most horrible of human violence.
What I do hope you would somehow learn to accept is that your belief system is just that......yours, and on no level is anyone else required to share it.
I have some pretty serious doubts about your ability to get along with any thinking woman, though, if she ever learns about the way you think. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 12:54:05 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
That's not how marriage works (at least our marriage). Granted, I wasn't assulted, but if my wife is hurting, the family is hurting. Yes, I would support my wife making the best decision for the family. |
What if she tells you that she cannot live with carrying the result of a rape? |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 02:22:53 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Nullix:
That's not how marriage works (at least our marriage). Granted, I wasn't assulted, but if my wife is hurting, the family is hurting. Yes, I would support my wife making the best decision for the family. |
What if she tells you that she cannot live with carrying the result of a rape? |
Then we have bigger problems that need resolving.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...And all to many kids today are just that......born into a life of misery, have no chance at any quality of life, and IMO, some just shouldn't be forced into being born... |
By your reasoning, with her misery of being raped, she should kill herself.
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 03:04:11 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
That's not how marriage works (at least our marriage). Granted, I wasn't assulted, but if my wife is hurting, the family is hurting. Yes, I would support my wife making the best decision for the family. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What if she tells you that she cannot live with carrying the result of a rape? |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Then we have bigger problems that need resolving. |
That's not an answer.....what's your answer to the question?
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
...And all to many kids today are just that......born into a life of misery, have no chance at any quality of life, and IMO, some just shouldn't be forced into being born... |
Originally posted by Nullix:
By your reasoning, with her misery of being raped, she should kill herself. |
Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 03:11:21 PM · #141 |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 03:25:46 PM · #142 |
Ha! Hilarious! I do love the Onion. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 04:17:09 PM · #143 |
Something tells me the opponents of this would fail to see the irony and humor of it. |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 04:53:14 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Something tells me the opponents of this would fail to see the irony and humor of it. |
Only too true. There was an antiabortion activist who blogged about this as if it were a real article and then tried to defend the validity of his response after someone pointed out that it was all satire. It was both humorous and sadly pathetic. Of course, he has since relegated that webpage to the “memory hole”.
In the words of Sarah Palin, “I kid you not.”
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 05:23:23 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Nullix:
So she's doing all the work herself? Sorry, that's not how it works in my family. We're both in it together. She's carrying the baby, but I'm taking care of her in all that I do. |
Please explain to me how anything you do affects the growing fetus in her womb.
|
Honey, can you rub my feet, they're swollen.
Honey, can you make me some food so I can eat.
Honey, can you come with me to my doctor's appointment, I need your support?
Honey, can you call the mid-wife, my contractions are happening.
Honey, can you remind me to breath properly while I push.
Honey, will you catch the baby when he comes out (I'm not joking, we had a water birth for our first child, he landed in my lap).
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
She *IS* doing all the work herself! |
Not when my kids were born. Maybe you shouldn't use me as an example.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You may believe that what you do actually does something, but other than being a helpful errand boy and possibly helping her state of mind, your input is negligible. |
So there's no value in men? We only exist for our sperm. Boom, boom, squirt...see you baby in 9 months...let me know how it goes.
That's not a marriage. That's 2 people living together sharing rent.
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 05:33:10 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You've already made it readily apparent that your system is unbalanced since you think it's okay to salvage a fetus that's been rejected by the womb, but it's not okay to abort under any circumstances.
That's a double standard.
Just for the record, that child is my nephew, who is 22 now and doing fine. I just don't understand why it was okay to mess with him being ejected from my sister's womb for some lack of viability......there was no car wreck or trauma involved......he was just rejected.....but yet you cannot see the way clear to abort a fetus conceived in the most horrible of human violence.
|
What are you talking about? Unbalance system? Salvaging a fetus that was rejected by the womb? Maybe I need to reread, but I don't remember any such thing.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What I do hope you would somehow learn to accept is that your belief system is just that......yours, and on no level is anyone else required to share it.
I have some pretty serious doubts about your ability to get along with any thinking woman, though, if she ever learns about the way you think. |
At no time have I ever mentioned a belief system. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't matter what or who you believe in; don't kill.
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 05:39:07 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Nullix:
So she's doing all the work herself? Sorry, that's not how it works in my family. We're both in it together. She's carrying the baby, but I'm taking care of her in all that I do. |
Please explain to me how anything you do affects the growing fetus in her womb.
|
Honey, can you rub my feet, they're swollen.
Honey, can you make me some food so I can eat.
Honey, can you come with me to my doctor's appointment, I need your support?
Honey, can you call the mid-wife, my contractions are happening.
Honey, can you remind me to breath properly while I push.
Honey, will you catch the baby when he comes out (I'm not joking, we had a water birth for our first child, he landed in my lap). |
Just being technical … none of those things affect a growing fetus in the womb … unless, of course, you spike the food you make for her with Thalidomide.
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 06:26:54 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
You've already made it readily apparent that your system is unbalanced since you think it's okay to salvage a fetus that's been rejected by the womb, but it's not okay to abort under any circumstances.
That's a double standard.
Just for the record, that child is my nephew, who is 22 now and doing fine. I just don't understand why it was okay to mess with him being ejected from my sister's womb for some lack of viability......there was no car wreck or trauma involved......he was just rejected.....but yet you cannot see the way clear to abort a fetus conceived in the most horrible of human violence.
|
What are you talking about? Unbalance system? Salvaging a fetus that was rejected by the womb? Maybe I need to reread, but I don't remember any such thing.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What I do hope you would somehow learn to accept is that your belief system is just that......yours, and on no level is anyone else required to share it.
I have some pretty serious doubts about your ability to get along with any thinking woman, though, if she ever learns about the way you think. |
At no time have I ever mentioned a belief system. It's pretty straight forward and doesn't matter what or who you believe in; don't kill. |
Just curious, do you believe in the death penalty as it stands now? |
|
|
|
07/30/2009 10:31:00 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Honey, can you rub my feet, they're swollen. |
Okay.....so the only time you do something for her is when she's pregnant? This somehow isn't part of your relationship and you do this because you love her?
And this is somehow doing something to make this baby happen.....your body is completely connected while YOU'RE carrying this child too.....how?
Originally posted by Nullix:
Honey, can you make me some food so I can eat. |
Oaky.....so for me when I made my family's meals, this would be Thursday.....and when I make food for my wife and daughter tomorrow, that'll be Friday.
Darnedest thing......those unreasonable women get hungry EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!!
So I make food EVERY DAY......not just once in a while if she's pregnant.
Originally posted by Nullix:
Honey, can you come with me to my doctor's appointment, I need your support? |
My wife comes with me to the doctor, too.....and I have yet to bear a child!!!!
Is she saving up credits in case I would happen to get pregnant?????
Originally posted by Nullix:
Honey, can you call the mid-wife, my contractions are happening. |
By Jove! I actually made a phone call or two for my wife during her pregnancy, too! But.....WAIT!!! I do that when she's not pregnant because she hates the phone and would just really rather not have to deal with the necessities of life like contacting companies for this, that, ot the other thing.
(It's that whole relationship thing AGAIN.....we do it ALL the time, not just when she's pregnant!)
(Sssshhhh! Don't let it get out. It's a SECRET!!!!)
Originally posted by Nullix:
Honey, can you remind me to breath properly while I push. |
Yeah, that's really where ALL the work happens in that delivery room! YOU helping her remember to breathe! Who knows what would happen if you weren't there? She might just STOP!!!! After all, she couldn't POSSIBLY do it without you!!
Originally posted by Nullix:
Honey, will you catch the baby when he comes out (I'm not joking, we had a water birth for our first child, he landed in my lap). |
Okay.....you got me there! I acftually let the OD/GYN bring out our breech child through the incision. But, if you get right down to it, any reasonably adept person who was there with a catcher's mitt could have helped your wife.....it really wan't that it wasn't going to happen without your help.
You have SUCH an inflated view of your part in it.
BTW, just for the record, since my wife tried to bleed out, had a difficult delivery, and my daughter spent the first 45 minutes of her life in my arms, she bonded with me first, I did the majority of the care of her for the first six weeks other than giving her to Mommy to feed. I washed her, changed her, walked the floor with her when she cried and needed to be walked, played with her, bathed her, and all the other things that a good Daddy SHOULD do to TRY to be of some use.
I have no illusion as to my part in the big picture once Lisa was strong enough to do what she wanted to in the way of the raising and working with our daughter.
I am extremely fortunate in that I had such a close bond at the beginning.....I actually got to be an important person in my little girl's life by taking the time to get to know her, and to care for her. So many fathers miss out.....I don't know a lot of men who happily changed diapers, or were in the position that they could do everything for their infant for the first month or so of their life.....and because they REALLY wanted to.
Trust me, if something doesn't arise in the way of complications, you'll really never get the chance to experience being everything to your child.
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Reiterating: She *IS* doing all the work herself! |
Originally posted by Nullix:
So there's no value in men? We only exist for our sperm. Boom, boom, squirt...see you baby in 9 months...let me know how it goes.
That's not a marriage. That's 2 people living together sharing rent. |
Does it make you feel good to try to twist people's words and make it sound like they say rotten things? Does that get your rocks off?
You really don't want to look too close at the male of the species when it comes to child rearing.....you WON'T like what you see.
I still have yet to hear anything from you that gives even the slightest indictaion of how you take part in the gestation of the child.
So far, you've been my best case for my point.
|
|
|
|
07/30/2009 11:50:33 PM · #150 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Does it make you feel good to try to twist people's words and make it sound like they say rotten things? Does that get your rocks off? |
Wow...I just don't know how to respond to that, so I won't. I'm done responding to you until you grow up. |
|
