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 07/25/2009 04:01:45 PM · #51
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
No, as a societal policy, legislation to govern what choices a woman makes is reprehensible.


Is it fair to say you're against any legislation that infringes on personal choices and not just this particular personal choice? I already know your views on gay marriage but is it consistent across the board to things like suicide, drug use, draft dodging, etc? Is there any personal choice where you feel society does have a right to infringe upon?
07/25/2009 04:04:32 PM · #52
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I can certainly agree that there will always be controversy, but really the only one is of the woman and child.

The man's rights are really, well, no rights at all.


I understand your point but the reason I say that even the man's rights are inextricably entwined is that if a man truly believes that the child's life should be preserved he has the right and possibly even the duty to defend it. That's why I feel the basic problem always comes back to where life begins.

It just isn't that simple.


It really is that simple. That same man could walk away at any time, never pay a dime in child support and never see the child. Yeah, you can get a court order, big whoop. It doesn't mean you'll ever see a cent or have any help. My own father did that. He walked away when I was a year old. He never paid a cent. My mother repeatedly took him to court for support, he'd drive up in his expensive car, cry poor to the judge and skate away, every time! She never got anything. And yes, they were married. Mean while, my mother busted her ass working twelve hours a day waitressing to keep a roof over our heads. I don't know him, don't consider him my father in any way other than biologically, and wouldn't ever want to meet him.
 07/25/2009 04:22:26 PM · #53
We have common ground Jeb. I'm a father of two beautiful grown girls and I was/am a very involved father and I think there are more of us then you give credit for. Unfortunately (to your point) one of my daughters is essentially a single parent of the grandchild mentioned above but he has no less love or support than if his father were more involved.

The reason I say your parenting facts are ancillary is that the have no bearing on the child's right to life once conceived. Your argument is a good one for contraception (maybe even castration of a few deadbeats I know) but I’m not so sure it supports abortion.

I’m beating a dead horse here but for me it all comes down to where life begins; nothing else matters. If a poor single mother decided to kill her 2 year old child we’d all consider he a villain but the line is not so clear for the a women who terminates her unborn child. That because we all have different philosophies about the start of life and the child’s rights.

For me and only for me…
I’m in no position to determine where life begins so I’m going to error on the side of the child. They’re the only innocent party in this situation. The others knew what could happen when they decided to take a risk.

In closing, I’m not trying to persuade you to share my beliefs. I’m proposing that it’s just not a black and white issue and it never will be.


07/25/2009 04:30:11 PM · #54
Originally posted by Kelli:
It really is that simple. That same man could walk away at any time, never pay a dime in child support and never see the child. Yeah, you can get a court order, big whoop. It doesn't mean you'll ever see a cent or have any help. My own father did that. He walked away when I was a year old. He never paid a cent. My mother repeatedly took him to court for support, he'd drive up in his expensive car, cry poor to the judge and skate away, every time! She never got anything. And yes, they were married. Mean while, my mother busted her ass working twelve hours a day waitressing to keep a roof over our heads. I don't know him, don't consider him my father in any way other than biologically, and wouldn't ever want to meet him.


I'm truly sorry for your experience Kelli but how is it relevant to the discussion? There are deadbeat dads, and although fewer, deadbeat moms as well that walk away from their children but how does that impact a child's right to life?
 07/25/2009 04:55:28 PM · #55
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by Kelli:
It really is that simple. That same man could walk away at any time, never pay a dime in child support and never see the child. Yeah, you can get a court order, big whoop. It doesn't mean you'll ever see a cent or have any help. My own father did that. He walked away when I was a year old. He never paid a cent. My mother repeatedly took him to court for support, he'd drive up in his expensive car, cry poor to the judge and skate away, every time! She never got anything. And yes, they were married. Mean while, my mother busted her ass working twelve hours a day waitressing to keep a roof over our heads. I don't know him, don't consider him my father in any way other than biologically, and wouldn't ever want to meet him.


I'm truly sorry for your experience Kelli but how is it relevant to the discussion? There are deadbeat dads, and although fewer, deadbeat moms as well that walk away from their children but how does that impact a child's right to life?


Because in my opinion, it's not a child until it can live on it's own. The day they can take it out of my body and put it in the body of the father and let him carry it is when he should be given a choice. My first pregnancy was problem filled. After I had my daughter they said to avoid problems I probably shouldn't have more children. Yet when I asked to have my tubes tied, they refused! It was my body, my choice yet I couldn't have a simple procedure done to prevent prenancy (even though it was what they recommended). Birth control pills caused me medical problems. So other means were necessary. I had a birth control failure when I was in my early thirty's, but had a miscarriage. Again, when I was 35 we had another failure. They suggested an abortion, I already had medical problems. Instead I choose to first have a very invasive test to determine if the child would be normal. He was and I had him. I spent many months in the hospital though. In the end he almost died, and so did I. But it was my choice. If the test had showed an abnormality I would have aborted. Why should some man, any man, decide whether I carry out a pregnancy or not. He has nothing invested other than some spilled sperm. That's the whole point. Once a child is born, then yes, the father should also be able to make decisions concerning the child, but not before. True, he could possibly be a wonderful father. So what? Let him go spill some more sperm with someone who actually wants his child. The whole idea of being "forced" to have a child against my will is just too barbaric to contemplate. And the amount of deadbeats is way higher than the amount of men who actually take on and keep the responsibility for a child. Just because someone is pro choice doesn't mean they want everyone to have an abortion. Just those who have made that decision themselves.

So now I've revealed my personal, private life to you along with some of the reasons among many that I feel the way I do about it. Do you want to tell me why you personally feel the pregnancy of some woman that you don't even know should be your business?
 07/25/2009 05:08:32 PM · #56
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What's your point?


Point is, Children aren't property that you can pick and choose.
* "Gee, this child growing inside me has major problems, lets kill him."
* "This child growing inside me is a girl, I don't want a girl, let's kill her."
* "I'm having twins? Let's kill one of them, I can't handle two."

I also don't understand, we're allowed to kill a child as long as it's in the womb. Once it's out, you can't kill them. However, you can sue the hospital since they didn't give you the opportunity to kill your child.

07/25/2009 05:39:50 PM · #57
Originally posted by Kelli:
So now I've revealed my personal, private life to you along with some of the reasons among many that I feel the way I do about it. Do you want to tell me why you personally feel the pregnancy of some woman that you don't even know should be your business?


First of all thanks for the clarification. Your first post seemed irrelevant to the discussion. Second, I've never once in this discussion said that I feel that a woman should be forced to do anything or that I feel that any woman's pregnancy is my business.

I've only proposed that the issue isn't simple. It'll take more than the wisdom of Solomon to solve complexities of abortion. You stated "it's not a child until it can live on it's own". I said "I’m in no position to determine where life begins so I’m going to error on the side of the child". I didn't state emphatically that life begins at conception I said I don't know where it begins.

I'll say the same to you as I did Jeb:
I’m not trying to persuade you to share my beliefs. I’m proposing that it’s just not a black and white issue and it never will be.

07/25/2009 05:52:51 PM · #58
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
Originally posted by Kelli:
So now I've revealed my personal, private life to you along with some of the reasons among many that I feel the way I do about it. Do you want to tell me why you personally feel the pregnancy of some woman that you don't even know should be your business?


First of all thanks for the clarification. Your first post seemed irrelevant to the discussion. Second, I've never once in this discussion said that I feel that a woman should be forced to do anything or that I feel that any woman's pregnancy is my business.

I've only proposed that the issue isn't simple. It'll take more than the wisdom of Solomon to solve complexities of abortion. You stated "it's not a child until it can live on it's own". I said "I’m in no position to determine where life begins so I’m going to error on the side of the child". I didn't state emphatically that life begins at conception I said I don't know where it begins.

I'll say the same to you as I did Jeb:
I’m not trying to persuade you to share my beliefs. I’m proposing that it’s just not a black and white issue and it never will be.


Sorry, I didn't mean to impose beliefs on you that you don't have. ;) It's just a touchy issue right now in my house. My own daughter is currently 6 months pregnant. Her boyfriend, who so desperately wanted this child has skipped town, moved in with another woman and gotten her pregnant too. And now denies this one is even his. Of course a DNA test will prove it after the baby is born. They were together for quite some time. In the beginning I asked her to think about either an abortion or adoption because I believed he would do exactly what he ended up doing. He convinced her to believe in him and not think about the things I was trying so hard to explain to her. It's one of those situations I talked about before and that's why I believed it was relevant. Only he's abandoned this child before it's even born. I seriously doubt my daughter will ever see a dime in child support.
 07/25/2009 05:58:52 PM · #59
I totally empathize Kelly. You may see in a post above that my daughter is in a similar situation. We're blessed to have the resources to help her and I can't imagine my life without my grandson in it. I hope that all goes well for you and your daughter
 07/25/2009 10:19:12 PM · #60
Originally posted by DJWoodward:
We have common ground Jeb. I'm a father of two beautiful grown girls and I was/am a very involved father and I think there are more of us then you give credit for. Unfortunately (to your point) one of my daughters is essentially a single parent of the grandchild mentioned above but he has no less love or support than if his father were more involved.

I reread that last part I wrote about no child having to grow up without both parents and just couldn't figure out a way that it sounded right.

I should state that I know many wonderful single parents, and many have children that have, and are, growing up to be fine people.

Originally posted by DJWoodward:
The reason I say your parenting facts are ancillary is that the have no bearing on the child's right to life once conceived. Your argument is a good one for contraception (maybe even castration of a few deadbeats I know) but I’m not so sure it supports abortion.

First and foremost, I think abortion is a reprehensible method of birth control. I also am a parent, and having the wonderful daughter that we do, I know that every time a pregnancy is terminated, it's possible that the world is deprived of another child like ours, or like Mother Theresa......or like Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy......you never know.

But I also don't spend much time on what-ifs, and I really struggle with the whole right to life concept.

I feel it's a terrible thing to bring an unwanted child into this screwball world at this point, especially with so many children who need homes and how hard it is for a child to grow up even with all the love and advantages that go along with a stable, "normal" home......(Whatever THAT may be! LOL!!!)

Originally posted by DJWoodward:
I’m beating a dead horse here but for me it all comes down to where life begins; nothing else matters. If a poor single mother decided to kill her 2 year old child we’d all consider he a villain but the line is not so clear for the a women who terminates her unborn child. That because we all have different philosophies about the start of life and the child’s rights.

I don't think we're all that far apart, really. I would only have you see my point of view and hopefully not interfere in our family's struggle to do what we would find to be the best course for our particular situation. I know that although we may not share views, I would not presume to feel that I had any right to interfere in your family.

I guess that's kind of the part that gets me. Why is it that so many peoplek want to tell others how to live their lives?

The reason that I am pro-choice is not because I necessarily see abortion as an answer, it all too often is not. What I am in favor of is a couple's right to live their life their way, consequences and all. Obviously there must be guidelines, and I am one of those people who despite being in favor of the woman's right to terminate a pregnancy, I also find it criminal when someone's religious beliefs won't allow them to take their sick, and imminently treatable child, to a hospital when they should.

And that then puts me in that same damned category of someone who wants to tell someone else how to live.

So I do understand the whole shades of grey thing......I'm just pretty clear where I stand on a woman's right to make a choice when her body is THE issue, regardlesss of who had a hand, or whatever, in it.

Originally posted by DJWoodward:
For me and only for me…
I’m in no position to determine where life begins so I’m going to error on the side of the child. They’re the only innocent party in this situation. The others knew what could happen when they decided to take a risk.

In closing, I’m not trying to persuade you to share my beliefs. I’m proposing that it’s just not a black and white issue and it never will be.

Isn't it sad how when the smoke clears, and the shouting dies down, it's *always* the children who suffer?

That's why I'm involved in child advocacy here in Pennsylvania.
 07/25/2009 10:28:51 PM · #61
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What's your point?


Originally posted by Nullix:
Point is, Children aren't property that you can pick and choose.
* "Gee, this child growing inside me has major problems, lets kill him."
* "This child growing inside me is a girl, I don't want a girl, let's kill her."
* "I'm having twins? Let's kill one of them, I can't handle two."

I also don't understand, we're allowed to kill a child as long as it's in the womb. Once it's out, you can't kill them. However, you can sue the hospital since they didn't give you the opportunity to kill your child.

Okay, are you going to accept the responsibility for the unwanted or "challenged" child?

I've noticd that the right to life people are always so ambitious with other people's time, money, and love, yet they don't have either the solution for the unwanted children either by programs they can specifically provide or a home themselves.

And it wasn't as much that the hospital didn't give the opportunity as the fact that they didn't do their job properly.......they had a responsibility, and the opportunity to discover the problem, and they should have, especially in the problem riddled OB/GYN field that has a microscope examining their every move as it is..

They didn't do their job as they should have.

And again, what gives you the right to decide how someone else makes their decision?

That's my major point.....there is no cut and dried answer, but if you come into my life thinking you can tell me how to live because of your beliefs, we're going to have a problem 'cause I certainly don't feel that I have the right to do so in your life.
 07/25/2009 10:54:11 PM · #62
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
No, as a societal policy, legislation to govern what choices a woman makes is reprehensible.


Is it fair to say you're against any legislation that infringes on personal choices and not just this particular personal choice? I already know your views on gay marriage but is it consistent across the board to things like suicide, drug use, draft dodging, etc? Is there any personal choice where you feel society does have a right to infringe upon?

Well, funny you should open that l'il Pandora's box.

My wife's stepfather blew his brains out all over the downstairs family room with a .308 one morning. It was horrible and devastating. I loved the man as a member of my family yet I will hate what he did for the rest of my days because of the impact that it had on my wife, her mother, and anyone else who cared about him.

What earthly good is having what he did be a legal crime? Does it bring him back? Does adding that to the pain and heartache on top of the damage done to his family accomplish anything? Do you think that the legality of the act occurred to him? Or if it did, as long as he was successful, did it matter?

What the f*ck difference does it make?

I don't much care for draft dodging......I feel that if your country calls you, you go.....or get out, and don't come back. You have the right to your choice to not support your country, but you can do it intelligently by doing something to keep yourself out of combat, or leave and go somewhere that you think more supports the way you believe.

Drug use? Been there, screwed up my life royally, lost my house and business, house, got legally disowned, and my daughter went into foster care for ten months 'til we proved to the state and child welfare that we could take care of her and provide her with a safe and stable home.

Do I think the government should mess in my life? When I screw up my kid's life and become a danger to those around me, yeah!

But I also feel that I should have the right o bury mtself making bad choices for a while first, not to mention that I knew what I was doing was illegal the whole time. I had the freedom to choose to screw up my life first. It was *my choice*!

I dunno about the etc. part, but there you have my views.

I should have been more clear in that line at the beginning that you quoted.....that a woman should have sole right to choose what she decides about what goes on inside her body.

Most of my views are based on things that I've had to deal with in my life and part of why I feel as strongly as I do about these subjects is because of my life experiences.

We weren't going to have children, we didn't want children as we were children who did as we pleased and we didn't want either the responsibility or the competition.

At the very beginning of our relationship, we made the choice to terminate a pregnancy....we discussed it, and I told Lisa that I would honor her wishes to make the choice and that I would support her decision. I felt as strongly at the point when I told her that almost thirty years ago as I do now that it's the woman's final say.

Sixteen years later, when the pill failed again, I told Lisa that I would be delighted to be a father if she wanted to be a mother, that I was willing, but again, I asked her to make her wishes clear and that I would support her. I'm spectacularly glad we have this amazing daughter that we do. I'm glad we didn't miss out on this beautiful aspect of life.

But part of the very core of my belief system is that a person ought to have the freedom to succeed, or screw up of his/her own volition, and that nobody else ought to interfere unless the actions endanger another.

I think that the legislature takes it too far when they decide that they have say over invading a woman's body no matter when they think that life begins.

I am 100% in Kelli's, and I think you'll find most women's beliefs, that after the child is delivered is when the committee can try and have a say......and not one minute before.
 07/25/2009 11:01:39 PM · #63
Originally posted by Kelli:
Sorry, I didn't mean to impose beliefs on you that you don't have. ;) It's just a touchy issue right now in my house. My own daughter is currently 6 months pregnant. Her boyfriend, who so desperately wanted this child has skipped town, moved in with another woman and gotten her pregnant too. And now denies this one is even his. Of course a DNA test will prove it after the baby is born. They were together for quite some time. In the beginning I asked her to think about either an abortion or adoption because I believed he would do exactly what he ended up doing. He convinced her to believe in him and not think about the things I was trying so hard to explain to her. It's one of those situations I talked about before and that's why I believed it was relevant. Only he's abandoned this child before it's even born. I seriously doubt my daughter will ever see a dime in child support.

Unfortunately, this is the norm, not the exception. And this is exactly why the woman should have sole right to make the determination. Until it's made a felony for the sperm donor to ditch responsibility, it's going to happen every time some stupid boy changes his mind and just skips town.

Kelli and her daughter WILL deal with it.....will the dad? Maybe.....if they find him and the court orders support, and the actually enforces it. You want to see some statistics that will break your heart? Go look through the files of any Domestic Relations office and match the support orders with the up to date payments.

THAT'S the reality, and it IS black and white. Deadbeat dads happen, and they rarely make good. It's not the percentage of dads who stay versus deadbeat dads, it's the percentage of dads who skip and then do not pay. It's an abysmal situation.
 07/25/2009 11:16:26 PM · #64
Originally posted by NikonJeb:


Originally posted by LadyK:
i hope the kid never sees that:/

True that.....


I see you both read the entire article! ;)

"His barrister, Robin Oppenheim QC, told London's High Court how the boy's multiple disabilities mean that he spends much of his time in a wheelchair and has to be 'ventilated' via a tracheostomy 24 hours-a-day and fed through a tube."
 07/26/2009 09:31:30 AM · #65
OK, playing Devils advocate here as usual - surely they should be grateful to the hospital for missing the problems - otherwise she would of killed her son before he was born and she wouldn't of ever had her wonderful, much loved member of the family. Dont get me wrong, I am not anti-abortion at all.

Message edited by author 2009-07-26 09:33:12.
 07/26/2009 12:13:54 PM · #66
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Sorry, I didn't mean to impose beliefs on you that you don't have. ;) It's just a touchy issue right now in my house. My own daughter is currently 6 months pregnant. Her boyfriend, who so desperately wanted this child has skipped town, moved in with another woman and gotten her pregnant too. And now denies this one is even his. Of course a DNA test will prove it after the baby is born. They were together for quite some time. In the beginning I asked her to think about either an abortion or adoption because I believed he would do exactly what he ended up doing. He convinced her to believe in him and not think about the things I was trying so hard to explain to her. It's one of those situations I talked about before and that's why I believed it was relevant. Only he's abandoned this child before it's even born. I seriously doubt my daughter will ever see a dime in child support.

Unfortunately, this is the norm, not the exception. And this is exactly why the woman should have sole right to make the determination. Until it's made a felony for the sperm donor to ditch responsibility, it's going to happen every time some stupid boy changes his mind and just skips town.

Kelli and her daughter WILL deal with it.....will the dad? Maybe.....if they find him and the court orders support, and the actually enforces it. You want to see some statistics that will break your heart? Go look through the files of any Domestic Relations office and match the support orders with the up to date payments.

THAT'S the reality, and it IS black and white. Deadbeat dads happen, and they rarely make good. It's not the percentage of dads who stay versus deadbeat dads, it's the percentage of dads who skip and then do not pay. It's an abysmal situation.


No, it's not that Black and White. "norm" in your opinion or not. There are an AWFUL lot of dead-beat mothers out there as well. Since they also exist, using your logic, I guess that we should just, what, sterilize the human race and be done with it?

Like Woodward, I'm not advocating forcing anyone to do anything, but a father-to-be does deserve more rights and power in the decision about an unborn child, because, as I've said before, there are TWO people involved in the act of producing said child, and it doesn't matter if one side has it more biologically tough than another, the woman makes a decision to engage in that act, and therefore takes on the responsibilities of that decision, and one of those responsibilities is to work with her partner to make the best decision possible for both of them. For the actual, decent, deserving men out there (and there are more of them than you'd have people believe), they shouldn't be denied a say simply because society sweeps the deadbeats under the rug and can't deal with them properly, or because too many women out there make absolutely horrible and idiotic decisions about their choice of sexual partner.

This also runs a hell of a lot deeper than just this issue alone, and involves things like proper sexual education, media and societal proliferation of sexual content, abortion as birth control mindsets, patriarchal saturation of society, ineffective justice systems, lack of proper parenting, institutional interferences, etc, etc, etc.

It's as Black and White as a Behr Color Chart.
 07/26/2009 01:44:26 PM · #67
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Since they also exist, using your logic, I guess that we should just, what, sterilize the human race and be done with it?

That's a ridiculous, erroneous, and ignorant thing to say. You want to advocate that, you'll not tag me with it.

You tell me I'm over-sensitive and take things too personal and then say things like that?

Somebody please explain this to me.

Message edited by author 2009-07-26 13:47:50.
 07/26/2009 01:47:20 PM · #68
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, playing Devils advocate here as usual - surely they should be grateful to the hospital for missing the problems - otherwise she would of killed her son before he was born and she wouldn't of ever had her wonderful, much loved member of the family. Dont get me wrong, I am not anti-abortion at all.

It's a double-edged sword......how can you advocate terminating the damaged pregnancy if you'll love the child no matter what, yet how can you not find fault with the hospital knowing that they should have picked up on what should have been easily detected knowing the family history.
 07/26/2009 01:51:17 PM · #69
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Since they also exist, using your logic, I guess that we should just, what, sterilize the human race and be done with it?

That's a ridiculous, erroneous, and ignorant thing to say. You want to advocate that, you'll not tag me with it.

You tell me I'm over-sensitive and take things too personal and then say things like that?

Somebody please explain this to me.


See, this is why it's so hard to have a discussion with you. You take things like over-exaggerated points as if they're actually being advocated.

Honestly man, read the rest of the damn post.
 07/26/2009 01:52:36 PM · #70
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, playing Devils advocate here as usual - surely they should be grateful to the hospital for missing the problems - otherwise she would of killed her son before he was born and she wouldn't of ever had her wonderful, much loved member of the family. Dont get me wrong, I am not anti-abortion at all.

It's a double-edged sword......how can you advocate terminating the damaged pregnancy if you'll love the child no matter what, yet how can you not find fault with the hospital knowing that they should have picked up on what should have been easily detected knowing the family history.


Medical technology is not infallible. People need to start realizing this. Heck, any time I have blood work done, I'm given both written AND verbal warnings that results may not be accurate.
 07/26/2009 01:58:41 PM · #71
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Since they also exist, using your logic, I guess that we should just, what, sterilize the human race and be done with it?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's a ridiculous, erroneous, and ignorant thing to say. You want to advocate that, you'll not tag me with it.

You tell me I'm over-sensitive and take things too personal and then say things like that?

Somebody please explain this to me.


Originally posted by K10DGuy:
See, this is why it's so hard to have a discussion with you. You take things like over-exaggerated points as if they're actually being advocated.

Honestly man, read the rest of the damn post.

Why not make a reasoned and intelligent response to a subject that's being discussed instead of going out of your way to be obnoxious then?

Was there any reason to make such a ludicrous statement?

You really don't support your point at all, you just make ridiculous statements.

How about your statement about deadbeat mothers.....do you have any basis for your comment, or are you just arguing?

Again, going back to personal experience, since I have and do work with child advocacy organizations and troubled couples I actually know of what I speak.

I just do not see mothers abandoning their children except perhaps once in a blue moon.

Deadbeat dads are common.
 07/26/2009 02:00:32 PM · #72
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, playing Devils advocate here as usual - surely they should be grateful to the hospital for missing the problems - otherwise she would of killed her son before he was born and she wouldn't of ever had her wonderful, much loved member of the family. Dont get me wrong, I am not anti-abortion at all.

It's a double-edged sword......how can you advocate terminating the damaged pregnancy if you'll love the child no matter what, yet how can you not find fault with the hospital knowing that they should have picked up on what should have been easily detected knowing the family history.


Medical technology is not infallible. People need to start realizing this. Heck, any time I have blood work done, I'm given both written AND verbal warnings that results may not be accurate.

If your family has a history of congenital heart failure, that's something you should look for and perform tests to ascertain, not look for lymphoma or scoliosis.

The family history indicated spinal bufida.

07/26/2009 02:06:38 PM · #73
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Since they also exist, using your logic, I guess that we should just, what, sterilize the human race and be done with it?

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's a ridiculous, erroneous, and ignorant thing to say. You want to advocate that, you'll not tag me with it.

You tell me I'm over-sensitive and take things too personal and then say things like that?

Somebody please explain this to me.


Originally posted by K10DGuy:
See, this is why it's so hard to have a discussion with you. You take things like over-exaggerated points as if they're actually being advocated.

Honestly man, read the rest of the damn post.

Why not make a reasoned and intelligent response to a subject that's being discussed instead of going out of your way to be obnoxious then?

Was there any reason to make such a ludicrous statement?

You really don't support your point at all, you just make ridiculous statements.

How about your statement about deadbeat mothers.....do you have any basis for your comment, or are you just arguing?

Again, going back to personal experience, since I have and do work with child advocacy organizations and troubled couples I actually know of what I speak.

I just do not see mothers abandoning their children except perhaps once in a blue moon.

Deadbeat dads are common.


Actually, I work in the childcare industry, so I have a lot of first-hand experience with deadbeat parents of both genders, and I have first-hand experience with situations on both sides regarding and dealing with a heck of a lot more than your insistence that 'deadbeat dads' are the reason that no male has ANY say in what a person should do about an unborn child. As I expanded on in my post (after the point I made that was merely to punctuate how ridiculous it is to base something simply because there's a proliferation of wrong-doing on one side), there are hundreds of factors that cause such horrifics and awful situations. It's just. Not. Black and White.

I believe I'm being no more unreasonable or intelligent than anyone else here. You just have a personal issue with me. That's fine. Just don't act the martyr here please. I'm trying to stick to the issue at hand, and just because we stand pretty far apart ON that issue, doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong or lacking reason.
 07/26/2009 02:10:10 PM · #74
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, playing Devils advocate here as usual - surely they should be grateful to the hospital for missing the problems - otherwise she would of killed her son before he was born and she wouldn't of ever had her wonderful, much loved member of the family. Dont get me wrong, I am not anti-abortion at all.

It's a double-edged sword......how can you advocate terminating the damaged pregnancy if you'll love the child no matter what, yet how can you not find fault with the hospital knowing that they should have picked up on what should have been easily detected knowing the family history.


Medical technology is not infallible. People need to start realizing this. Heck, any time I have blood work done, I'm given both written AND verbal warnings that results may not be accurate.

If your family has a history of congenital heart failure, that's something you should look for and perform tests to ascertain, not look for lymphoma or scoliosis.

The family history indicated spinal bufida.


My family has a history of colon cancer, but they completely missed it in my Aunt last year even though she was having specific testing done for it. Sometimes, life throws you a curve that is no-one's FAULT. We've lost the ability to deal with this because of an over-reliance on being the victim. It's not a trend that's going to go away, unfortunately.
 07/26/2009 02:22:59 PM · #75
Originally posted by Simms:
OK, playing Devils advocate here as usual - surely ...

... the Devil has plenty of advocates without you ... ;-)
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