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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Ok. I'll ask...legal? How? (Expert Editing discussion)
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07/13/2009 09:53:48 AM · #1
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While I think the 1st place digital workup for the MJ challenge is very cool - how can it be legal?

Based on the following in the Expert Editing rules (underlined parts for emphasis):

"Your submission must be: composed only from photographs taken after the challenge is announced and before the deadline, based on the Current Server Time (US Eastern Standard/Daylight Time) displayed at the bottom of every page on this site."

"You may: use images that do not meet the source or date requirements as textures in your entry if they function specifically as textures and not to circumvent other rules."

"You may: include existing images or artwork as part of your composition as long as the entry does not appear to consist entirely of a pre-existing photograph in order to circumvent date or editing rules or fool the voters into thinking you actually captured the original photograph."

"You may not: add graphics or clip art images to your entry or its border during editing."

I've tried to include anything that could remotely be part of validating this photo based on the ruleset - however, the last one (under You may not) seems to be the clincher for me.

Some hinted at this in the comments - so here it is. Discuss if you may.

07/13/2009 10:01:06 AM · #2
All photos were taken by the photographer during the challenge dates, and the figure was created in Photoshop. No outside images (clip art) were used. In Expert, pretty much anything goes as long as the work is yours and all created during the challenge.
07/13/2009 10:07:31 AM · #3
AFAIK creating(drawing) figures and shapes even in Expert was suppose to be illegal. This was discussed when Bear Music drew in his birds in his blue ribbon. Have the rules been changed about what would be allowed again?

Matt
07/13/2009 10:21:03 AM · #4
Originally posted by scalvert:

All photos were taken by the photographer during the challenge dates, and the figure was created in Photoshop. No outside images (clip art) were used. In Expert, pretty much anything goes as long as the work is yours and all created during the challenge.

Well, it's still "adding graphics", which appear to be disallowed based on the rules (under 'You may not').
07/13/2009 10:24:40 AM · #5
Originally posted by MattO:

AFAIK creating(drawing) figures and shapes even in Expert was suppose to be illegal. This was discussed when Bear Music drew in his birds in his blue ribbon. Have the rules been changed about what would be allowed again?

You mean this VALIDATED entry?
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07/13/2009 10:27:11 AM · #6
Originally posted by glad2badad:

it's still "adding graphics", which appear to be disallowed based on the rules (under 'You may not').

It's not adding existing graphics (clip art). Drawing in new features is hardly an issue in Expert, where liquify, duplication and digital composites are allowed.
07/13/2009 10:28:33 AM · #7
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by MattO:

AFAIK creating(drawing) figures and shapes even in Expert was suppose to be illegal. This was discussed when Bear Music drew in his birds in his blue ribbon. Have the rules been changed about what would be allowed again?

You mean this VALIDATED entry?
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Yes it was validated then discussed that since that was the first one it would be allowed on that one, but from that point on it wouldn't.

Matt

Edit to add, I'm glad to see you can have a discussion without resorting to being smart ass and sarcastic(at least that is how you are coming across).



Message edited by author 2009-07-13 10:29:27.
07/13/2009 10:28:59 AM · #8
Robert's entry was from 2006 - and wasn't there some changes since then? Thought I heard some debate about that. The expert editing rules have been modified/updated in Sept 2008 (according to the ruleset page anyways).
07/13/2009 10:29:15 AM · #9
Since I left that comment to which glad refers I'll chime in here. First, I know Andres was careful to create an entry that he believed was legal based on the rules and past precedent (a couple of examples of which he posted in the comments in response to mine).

So, two questions come to my mind when I see this entry. One, is it actually legal based on how the rules are written, and two, should it be legal? Even though Shannon has already chimed in with the definitive answer, I don't think it's legal under the current rule. It isn't composed only of photographs, and I'd say graphics have been added during editing. According to Shannon's take on the rules, this lens cap shot that I edited in MS Paint is legal.

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More important to me is the second question. Should this kind of editing be legal in expert? I guess it depends on how much we want to police the photo vs. digital art issue. If it's really legal (and stays that way), then it's up to the voters to decide. I don't really know exactly how I feel about that.
07/13/2009 10:29:19 AM · #10
Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by MattO:

AFAIK creating(drawing) figures and shapes even in Expert was suppose to be illegal. This was discussed when Bear Music drew in his birds in his blue ribbon. Have the rules been changed about what would be allowed again?

You mean this VALIDATED entry?
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/600/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_437270.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/600/120/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_437270.jpg', '/') + 1) . '


Yes it was validated then discussed that since that was the first one it would be allowed on that one, but from that point on it wouldn't.

Matt

That's what I thought also.
07/13/2009 10:30:28 AM · #11
Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

it's still "adding graphics", which appear to be disallowed based on the rules (under 'You may not').

It's not adding existing graphics (clip art). Drawing in new features is hardly an issue in Expert, where liquify, duplication and digital composites are allowed.

You've just rewritten the way the rules currently read with that "existing". As written it wouldn't allow for any graphics to be added during editing.
07/13/2009 10:32:48 AM · #12
I also thought Robert's bird was the exception that would be allowed to stand, but no more after that. We'll have to find that thread, gentlemen!
07/13/2009 10:33:57 AM · #13
Originally posted by glad2badad:

You've just rewritten the way the rules currently read with that "existing". As written it wouldn't allow for any graphics to be added during editing.

Any composite of more than one photo is technically "adding graphics," so clearly it's not quite so literal.
07/13/2009 10:34:22 AM · #14
Here Robert even says himself it wouldn't be allowed anymore.

Matt
07/13/2009 10:35:16 AM · #15
Originally posted by freakin_hilarious:

I also thought Robert's bird was the exception that would be allowed to stand, but no more after that. We'll have to find that thread, gentlemen!


I belive you will find some of Bears comments on this in the Artwork thread. I also thought it was allowed just that once, then not again.

But I could have totally misinterpreted that conversation
07/13/2009 10:35:41 AM · #16
Originally posted by freakin_hilarious:

I also thought Robert's bird was the exception that would be allowed to stand, but no more after that. We'll have to find that thread, gentlemen!


I belive you will find some of Bears comments on this in the Artwork thread. I also thought it was allowed just that once, then not again.

But I could have totally misinterpreted that conversation

edited to add, Matt got to it first
07/13/2009 10:36:16 AM · #17
Either way, it's just a comment that Bear made, and was not an official SC ruling.
07/13/2009 10:37:48 AM · #18
Originally posted by jeger:

Either way, it's just a comment that Bear made, and was not an official SC ruling.


too true!!!
07/13/2009 10:39:21 AM · #19
Psst...
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To be fair, the entry in question hasn't been validated yet.

Message edited by author 2009-07-13 10:41:47.
07/13/2009 10:42:06 AM · #20
Originally posted by jeger:

Either way, it's just a comment that Bear made, and was not an official SC ruling.


While this is true, Bear was very involved in the discussion following the results of that challenge, and I would take that into account whether he understands it would or wouldn't be allowed any longer.

Matt
07/13/2009 10:47:41 AM · #21
Originally posted by MattO:

AFAIK creating(drawing) figures and shapes even in Expert was suppose to be illegal.


I thought the same thing.
07/13/2009 10:50:51 AM · #22
.

Message edited by author 2009-07-13 10:52:15.
07/13/2009 11:02:08 AM · #23
Originally posted by freakin_hilarious:

Since I left that comment to which glad refers I'll chime in here. First, I know Andres was careful to create an entry that he believed was legal based on the rules and past precedent (a couple of examples of which he posted in the comments in response to mine).

So, two questions come to my mind when I see this entry. One, is it actually legal based on how the rules are written, and two, should it be legal? Even though Shannon has already chimed in with the definitive answer, I don't think it's legal under the current rule. It isn't composed only of photographs, and I'd say graphics have been added during editing. According to Shannon's take on the rules, this lens cap shot that I edited in MS Paint is legal.

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/50000-54999/52500/120/806978.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/50000-54999/52500/120/806978.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

More important to me is the second question. Should this kind of editing be legal in expert? I guess it depends on how much we want to police the photo vs. digital art issue. If it's really legal (and stays that way), then it's up to the voters to decide. I don't really know exactly how I feel about that.


Why is that bum peeing on the train tracks?
07/13/2009 11:10:22 AM · #24
I draw good. :)
07/13/2009 11:15:40 AM · #25
Originally posted by MattO:

Originally posted by jeger:

Either way, it's just a comment that Bear made, and was not an official SC ruling.


While this is true, Bear was very involved in the discussion following the results of that challenge, and I would take that into account whether he understands it would or wouldn't be allowed any longer.

Matt


It's my distinct recollection that this aspect of the rule was hotly debated after my entry was validated, and it's my recollection we were told that what I did wouldn't be allowed any longer. But what *I* remember, what *I* took from that discussion, isn't particularly relevant. All I can do is mention *why* I did it that way: the expert rules don't allow use of any images taken outside the challenge dates, and I didn't have any bird shots that I could incorporate that were taken *within* the challenge dates, so I just created my own birds with the burn tool, basically. I didn't see it as "drawing", I saw it as burning-in very selectively :-)

How they're gonna deal with this one, I haven't a clue: the rules DO specifically say you can't use clip art or graphics, and the MJ figure is clearly a graphic (the photographer says it is), so...

R.

Message edited by author 2009-07-13 11:15:51.
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