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07/02/2009 11:15:35 PM · #76
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by RulerZigzag:


They are the keepers of the key, the keepers of secrets, secrets of our past. I believe we came from Mars, said best by Rush Limbaugh in a popular broadcast a year ago. Martians destroyed themselves all those years ago, probably from technology. And the survivors had the technology to fly here and start a new. When they came here they established a god hood over this planet of the apes, changing the ape into Neanderthal, and then modifying the vocal cords and creating modern man through genetic design.


Wow. Never knew Rush had the gall to rip off Clarke and Kubrick...

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo-
How would the idea of mutually exclusive isntances of life in the universe effect your current worldview?


I wouldn't call it a rip off, if anything journalists should try to bridge the gap between the fiction and the non by gathering evidence to backup what was once fiction. Like Christ said, he had to speak in "Parables" to get messages through.

Arthur C Clarke probably compared the Neanderthal to our anatomy and found the only differences were in the throat. Like all lower mammals, their consciousness is a piece of the universal pie; we humans simply grasp onto bigger pieces of it. I think there is a flimsy veil between the divine and the human. Experience is the only thing that separated Zeus or Jesus from Noah or Peter. Probably known as genetic memories.

Not sure discovery of civilizations on other planets would be so shattering. If anything it will be a blow to our egos more than anything ! I think most scientists believe in the Anthropic Principle, the universe is finely tuned for us, and us only; and we are all god in carnal form; of course, there are always some who are less perfect than others:)



Message edited by author 2009-07-02 23:20:45.
07/02/2009 11:43:22 PM · #77
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo-
How would the idea of mutually exclusive isntances of life in the universe effect your current worldview?


Good question. I'm guessing it would shake it to the core, although I'm also guessing I'd stubbornly hold onto it in the end. I'm probably no different than most people.


You would hold onto it. The Christian worldview has survived the second coming that didn't come, heliocentrism, feminism, paleontology. evolutionary biology and now gay marriage. Alien life would just be the next blip in an old religion's cognitive dissonance.
07/03/2009 12:23:25 AM · #78
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo-
How would the idea of mutually exclusive isntances of life in the universe effect your current worldview?


Good question. I'm guessing it would shake it to the core, although I'm also guessing I'd stubbornly hold onto it in the end. I'm probably no different than most people.

It probably all depends on exactly what we find. Microbes? Not too uncomfortable. Another civilization? Much more so.
On the other hand, how would you feel if we met that civilization and they also had a story where the creator of the universe incarnated among them to redeem them from their wrongdoing? That would be some crazy action. ;)


Okay, that's what I was getting at with the ready made explanation to fit extraterrestrial life into your worldview. The alternative (that they are mutually exclusive) is a potentially large problem for western religion, so as ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' posthumous noted, efforts would be made to assimilate it. The easiest way to do so is the theory of contamination, because it doesn't really contradict any text. This, ultimately, what I was discussing with your leveraging. To those who adhere to a religion, the concept of abiogenesis is far fetched in terms of probability but then you are already providing a means for assimilation of the idea of extraterrestrial life.
That article is interesting... but because it is so preliminary, lots of leaps were made. The natural forces needed to catapult a rock into space, for instance, would be pretty massive. I also suspect the capsule had a lot easier time of landing than an unassisted meteorite would. Of course, I'm not saying it's impossible that it could happen. It's an interesting area that deserves more attention.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' RulerZigzag-
The idea is just repeating an extremely well known and classic work of science fiction.
I urge you to reexamine the discovered remains of neanderthals if you think the only difference is the vocal chords.
Calling Rush Limbaugh a journalist is probably the biggest stretch here. Having a pulpit does not mean you are a journalist.

Also, to make sure I'm getting what you're saying here: You think journalists should take a work of fiction (start with an endpoint) and then attempt to direct evidence to that end? I nominate The Da Vinci Code next.

07/03/2009 12:55:28 AM · #79
Spiritual, of course the idea is well known in sci-fi. If anything the anthropic principle is supported by religion, because god made us in his own image. I just think religion and it's god, gods, deities or demi-gods are not so different from the idea that Extraterrestrial advanced life created advanced life. The labels are just different and so western religion really doesn't assimilate it, just switches the labels around.

I know Rush Limbaugh is not really a journalist, maybe a lliason of some sort; but he does spread theories around alot. Theories are spawned from facts first. Yes, like the DaVinci code! hehe. Wait until Dan's new book comes out! I can't wait.

The MAIN difference of Neanderthal and Cro-magnon was the vocal cords. Not the only difference, but the only significant difference. Yes, our primate ancestors were taller, bigger forheads, etc. The brain too of course, but size of brain is irrelevent to whether it means the animal is smarter or not...I think Cro-magnon had the doors of the mind unlocked, and the creators knew it could be dangerous since perhaps the evolution was intervened with.

Message edited by author 2009-07-03 01:08:21.
07/03/2009 01:04:51 AM · #80
An example of the re-labeling.

Universal symbol of medicine

Twin snakes shaped like the DNA helix which was used in the story Genesis, except re-labeled as the Tree of Life.
The Apple, or Pomegranate symbolized the apple-seed; or Draconian DNA integrated possibly using stem cells to reshape the Neanderthal's DNA into becoming a bit more refined, especially in the Adam's apple area.

THe biting of the Apple symbolized the opening of consciousness, in the new brain of man...which initially led to evil-doing since evolution was sped up giving man less time to become in tune with our genetic memories. Like I said in the above post regarding intervention of the natural evolutionary process.

The serpents in Genesis were probably scientists in white coats. They just weren't explained that way because then people would have nothing to fear.

Message edited by author 2009-07-03 01:08:48.
07/03/2009 01:20:02 AM · #81
I bet you are a hoot at parties ZigZag. :P
07/03/2009 01:42:41 AM · #82
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I bet you are a hoot at parties ZigZag. :P


Haha..., all my partying eventually led me to stop partying, and maybe one day stop hootin!
07/03/2009 01:45:42 AM · #83
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

An example of the re-labeling.

Universal symbol of medicine

Twin snakes shaped like the DNA helix which was used in the story Genesis, except re-labeled as the Tree of Life.
The Apple, or Pomegranate symbolized the apple-seed; or Draconian DNA integrated possibly using stem cells to reshape the Neanderthal's DNA into becoming a bit more refined, especially in the Adam's apple area.

THe biting of the Apple symbolized the opening of consciousness, in the new brain of man...which initially led to evil-doing since evolution was sped up giving man less time to become in tune with our genetic memories. Like I said in the above post regarding intervention of the natural evolutionary process.

The serpents in Genesis were probably scientists in white coats. They just weren't explained that way because then people would have nothing to fear.


Proverbial white coated scientists F'ing with my DNA and making me into their little science project is way more terrifying than a suggestive snake in a garden.

There are significant differences between the western God concept and what you are describing. This is no example of relabeling. The only similarity is creation by a pre-existing entity.
What the heck are you talking about with Draconian DNA?
What are you talking about with the Cro-Magnon being dangerous? They knew it would be dangerous.... what do you mean? What does this necessitate their actions to be?
There is ample debate about what speech capabilities the neanderthals possessed and it is hardly settled. Furthermore, even if there WAS very little articulation, huge amounts of information can be conveyed without it.
07/03/2009 02:04:26 AM · #84
You're right about it being more terrifying when I think about it; thats probably why Jesus spoke in parables.

The pre-existing entity (White bearded man with a throne on a cloud) doesn't seem too scary to me, maybe its just Godzilla re-labeled! lol. but whey do they say you have to be God fearing? In GENEsis, it could have been GODzilla who wore the white coat! Afterall, in GENEsis, the Lords were described as Reptilian or was it Serpents I believe. These Red Devils were probably from the Red planet Mars.

Draconian DNA, like in your DaVinci code, how Leonardo DaVinci was portrayed as a symbol, maybe many persons combined in one personage. It is why Dan Brown used the name as an anagram in the opening scene. The name Leonardo DaVinci can be unscrambled and form the word "Draconian Devil" Perhaps he meant these reptilian devils were responsible for all the technological marvels implemented in society, the divine interveners. How could Leonardo Davinci create all those things? Talk about genetic memories, not even Tesla created such variety. I doubt the Neanderthals could interact like we are doing now, spreading knowledge...the vocal cords meant alot.

Oh, if I keep going here, Im gonna start talking about the teenage mutant ninja turtles, I'm done!

Message edited by author 2009-07-03 02:08:01.
07/03/2009 02:20:51 AM · #85
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

I doubt the Neanderthals could interact like we are doing now, spreading knowledge...the vocal cords meant alot.


I really was trying hard to not respond here but this statement was just too funny.
07/03/2009 02:28:09 AM · #86
"There is ample debate about what speech capabilities the neanderthals possessed and it is hardly settled. Furthermore, even if there WAS very little articulation, huge amounts of information can be conveyed without it"

I guess you think its possible to learn how to write first, without speaking? Doubt it. Speech first, writing 2nd.
07/03/2009 03:13:42 AM · #87
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

"There is ample debate about what speech capabilities the neanderthals possessed and it is hardly settled. Furthermore, even if there WAS very little articulation, huge amounts of information can be conveyed without it"

I guess you think its possible to learn how to write first, without speaking? Doubt it. Speech first, writing 2nd.


If a being had the faculties to do so, yes, I think it is possible. Progression from a symbolic picture to an abstracted symbol for that really isn't very far.

I guess I understand what you mean by "Draconian DNA" but I feel that using the two words together makes absolutely no sense. Amalgamated DNA or Anagram DNA is closer I guess, but not really. DNA just can't be Draconian, unless we're talking about Draco's DNA, or implying that humans have dragon DNA.

Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

In GENEsis, it could have been GODzilla who wore the white coat! Afterall, in GENEsis, the Lords were described as Reptilian or was it Serpents I believe.

Here you are ascribing additional meanings where there are none. The word genesis predated gene and evolved linguistically into gene. Of course you will see gene in genesis, it doesn't mean our genes were altered and that's what they REALLY meant when they said genesis.
07/03/2009 03:14:05 AM · #88
Neanderthals wore makeup and liked to chat.
07/03/2009 03:27:11 AM · #89
Oh, and the caduseus isn't the universal symbol of medicine, the rod of Asclepius has a longer history and closer relevance with the healing arts. The caduseus is used mostly in North America since the 1800's. So there goes the double helix theory :)
07/03/2009 04:42:57 PM · #90
Originally posted by BeeCee:

Oh, and the caduseus isn't the universal symbol of medicine, the rod of Asclepius has a longer history and closer relevance with the healing arts. The caduseus is used mostly in North America since the 1800's. So there goes the double helix theory :)


Yes, Medicine and Healing art; you make it sound as if they are so different! I guess in the 1800s when the West was born, they decided to do some historical research and came up with the double helix theory! , so, NO there it does not go.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' spiritualspatula, I wanted to ask you, this Rapture, what is your interpretation of the return? who will announce Jesus when he does come back? How many will scream out Blasphemy! I already explained my opinion a few posts ago. Your opinion is held in high regard.

Message edited by author 2009-07-03 16:47:53.
07/03/2009 11:19:42 PM · #91
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:


' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' spiritualspatula, I wanted to ask you, this Rapture, what is your interpretation of the return? who will announce Jesus when he does come back? How many will scream out Blasphemy! I already explained my opinion a few posts ago. Your opinion is held in high regard.


lol Here I was thinking I would be respected here in the forum by my ample gear and technical explanations, when really all I had to do was venture into the Rant for awhile :)

Well, I'm personally an atheist, so I don't think there will be a return. Hypothetically speaking, I wouldn't think an announcement would be needed. I think it would be most sensible, in light of the Trinity, that God/Jesus would simply make all of the followers aware. There is no need for anything beyond this. I think a lot of the theatricality associated with the topic is just that: dramatic theatricality. Take the Left Behind books. They sell great, because it's like dogmatic soap opera. I think it also makes people more comfortable that all the upheaval and crazy shit in the world is not really crazy, but intended.
Now, my personal views on religion are that it isn't for me, but I think it can be good. Fellows like ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo get my respect because they aren't super zealots proclaiming my damned-ness. Dialogue between the groups of the religious and non-religious should be beneficial. I enjoy studying religion and its various incarnations because they are infinitely interesting. The variety and depth of explanation is amazing, and that there has been so much thought on the matter has proven it a worthy subject to consider. To dismiss everything outright is asinine, because it was and still is an important director of humanity. Religion imparts a responsibility for actions, which I think is needed for society to work at current. Religion is very powerful, and society needs to realize that. Power can be wielded for good or ill, and religion is just as vulnerable to this. The divinity imparted by religion can be abused very easily.
I somewhat diverged from the Rapture here, because I figured I might as well just come out and explain my position.
07/04/2009 12:15:05 PM · #92
(best Jerry Seinfeld): I don't know if you are going to hell, but (where you are going) there are going to be some bad dudes...

I can respect your position and it's actually a breath of fresh air compared to a few of the dogmatic atheists around here (you know who you are!). :)
07/04/2009 03:05:14 PM · #93
I also really think it says a lot about your character that you started the "Ask a Christian" thread. It speaks volumes for what your intents are. I think both camps are so entrenched they only usually speak with their own "kind" and there are plenty of misconceptions going on. It also helps that many questions seem very awkward to ask in the first place. As an atheist, there are aspects of religion that are so alien to me that I really can't comprehend them, or that have implications that I don't see or get because I'm thinking about things in a fundamentally separate manner. I think the same goes for religious folks in regards to how atheists live. It's this fundamental ideological chasm that separates the two, and often it seems as they both are speaking different languages to each other. I don't personally believe you can approach religion in a perfectly rational sense, but this what the source of truth is for atheists, so we revert to it. This works for most things, but not when you enter into discussions concerning religion, because all of your points are in a language that isn't as significant as that of faith to the believer. Faith is a necessary element in religion. As I briefly mentioned earlier, this is referred to as a blik, and atheists have them too, but they are of a different sort.

Just remember, ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo, your reaction to the intense atheists is similar to how I feel about zealots ;)

I think of religion as a social construct, but, ironically, in this light it takes on an entirely new and fascinating aspect. Constructs have a lot to say about the times and lives of those who forged them, about the human condition. That religion has been so important says something about the human condition, and that's what I'm trying to learn, and where I'm coming from. I was genuinely interested in your responses, same goes for ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' RulerZigzag.
07/05/2009 02:31:43 AM · #94
Understandable, just curious about other people's point of view about it; the second coming is something that so many people put so much stock into, but yet we are all so dumbfounded about it all. Interesting to see everyone's position on the matter, sounds like we should just forget it and let nature take its course, if the Rapture does happen, we probably won't know it even took place.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' spiritualspatula, I was interested in your opinion, because like you, I am completely confused by religion, and my theological scribes on this thread are just attempts to make sense of it all, but like Aristotle says, "I know nothing" However, truth is found through Math, and if information is treated like numbers and put into an equation, we might come up with something after all.

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo, its nice to see a conservative with such an open mind. Of course, not in political senses, but regarding religion. Christianity to me is a bureaucracy, split into so many levels. There are so many different version of bibles. I have been studying the books of "Zacharia Sitchin" the last few years and I am completely engulfed. Great stuff, I recommend.

07/05/2009 03:44:47 AM · #95
Originally posted by RulerZigzag:

' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo, its nice to see a conservative with such an open mind. Of course, not in political senses, but regarding religion. Christianity to me is a bureaucracy, split into so many levels. There are so many different version of bibles. I have been studying the books of "Zacharia Sitchin" the last few years and I am completely engulfed. Great stuff, I recommend.


I can't quite tell if you are guessing I'm politically conservative, because you'd be wrong on that count. It's possible you meant religiously conservative and I probably qualify there. :)

I get a kick out of how many people think I have to be a republican because I'm a Christian. Dangit if the Christian Coalition didn't hijack my religion!
07/05/2009 03:57:52 AM · #96
Of course, I did mention that. The whole Mars thing, if life is found on Mars, then the public is told something known to some organizations for a long time already.

Zacharia Sitchin is big into the 2012 thing, and I sometimes wonder if its a bunch of bologna, but usually stay firm that its not. Lets face it, there is a huge shift going on right now, climate wise, conscious wise, economical.

If the end occurs, it will only be the end of what we know.

Curious about the Colony Collapse Disorder occuring in Bats and Bees, I'm reading into this.
07/12/2009 01:48:55 AM · #97
I am a Christian. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I believe in the Rapture. 'If' I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. 'If' you are wrong, you have everything to lose.
07/12/2009 08:17:19 AM · #98
IMO the rapture is a silly idea that is based on one vague verse in Revelation, which is loaded with symbols, that has been popularized by a book series.
07/12/2009 01:31:18 PM · #99
Originally posted by Emerkaza:

I am a Christian. My faith is in Jesus Christ. I believe in the Rapture. 'If' I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. 'If' you are wrong, you have everything to lose.

Part of the problem that I have with this kind of thinking is that there is tacit implication that there will be many truly good people who will be cut out of what is supposed to be a better place because they don't happen to share a fairly narrow view of the end game.

That troubles me greatly because I cannot conceive of a God who would kick people to the curb who have spent their whole lives doing for the good and betterment of their fellow man and haven't spent the time to care and/or worry about their own salvation.

Aren't there Jews, Muslims, and various great peoples throughout history who would by most people's purview have been selfless in their concern and work for others who won't make it because their way of life doesn't fit the "proper" definition?

In a couple of Google searches I found list after list of Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist humanitarian groups.....are all these people toast?
07/12/2009 02:27:38 PM · #100
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

In a couple of Google searches I found list after list of Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist humanitarian groups.....are all these people toast?


Buddhists won't go to Christian heaven just like Christian's won't go to Buddhist heaven :)
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