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06/26/2009 06:34:05 PM · #26
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

What purpose does the destruction of the earth serve?

It seems so wrong to rid the planet of its biggest scourge, then destroy it.


Sometimes you have to clear the old house to put up the new. It's also possible, I suppose, that one entity is responsible for the destruction while another is responsible for the restoration. (I'm hoping I figured out what you were asking in your post. I wasn't totally clear.)

Message edited by author 2009-06-26 18:34:29.
06/26/2009 06:39:08 PM · #27
David Duchovny was super hot in that movie.
06/26/2009 06:48:45 PM · #28
Originally posted by Mousie:

David Duchovny was super hot in that movie.


Dude, was that Duchovny? Man, it's been a while since I saw it. Wait, now I'm not even sure I saw it. I remember when it was out, but maybe I never got around to it.

Message edited by author 2009-06-26 18:51:05.
06/26/2009 09:44:28 PM · #29
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

What purpose does the destruction of the earth serve?

It seems so wrong to rid the planet of its biggest scourge, then destroy it.


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Sometimes you have to clear the old house to put up the new. It's also possible, I suppose, that one entity is responsible for the destruction while another is responsible for the restoration. (I'm hoping I figured out what you were asking in your post. I wasn't totally clear.)

Well....I guess that's an okay analogy......but what if the house has walls that were painted by Michaelangelo?

Tough noogies?
06/26/2009 10:15:22 PM · #30
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Well....I guess that's an okay analogy......but what if the house has walls that were painted by Michaelangelo?

Tough noogies?


That's easy. You just paint leaves over the naughty bits.
06/27/2009 04:07:34 AM · #31
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Doc thats a beautiful story, and it speaks to the depth of your faith.

Sadly, I hear a lot of people talking about the Rapture like its a "get out of jail free" card, releasing us of our obligations to be the steward over the lands and the animals that was laid on us long, long ago.


That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

In the meantime I'll be trying to bring as many extra-limbed frogs along for the ride as possible...

Rather selfish attitude in a way. Rapture may not come for another 1000 or 10,000 years. Seems it would be nice to give some consideration to those who will be living here until the destruction, eh?
06/27/2009 05:45:22 AM · #32
Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Doc thats a beautiful story, and it speaks to the depth of your faith.

Sadly, I hear a lot of people talking about the Rapture like its a "get out of jail free" card, releasing us of our obligations to be the steward over the lands and the animals that was laid on us long, long ago.


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

In the meantime I'll be trying to bring as many extra-limbed frogs along for the ride as possible...

Originally posted by Melethia:

Rather selfish attitude in a way. Rapture may not come for another 1000 or 10,000 years. Seems it would be nice to give some consideration to those who will be living here until the destruction, eh?

I just have so many issues with the whole concept.

God is perfect, all-knowing, & loving, right?

That whole "If you don't play it my way, I'm taking my football and going home." thing is such a spiteful, petty, human concept.

I just don't buy that God's gonna trash a whole lot of perfectly good people because they've been raised to believe in a different manner than one bunch says.


Message edited by author 2009-06-27 05:46:26.
06/27/2009 05:57:22 AM · #33
If this mythological `Jesus` did return in our time then imagine how much he would make on Magazine rights, broadcast rights etc - Hello & OK magazine would enter a pretty heavy bidding war for the rights to the "At home with Jesus" spread.

Then there would be the eventual backlash by the tabloid media. "Jesus & St Peter spotted in Gay bar together.. EXCLUSIVE PICS INSIDE!!"

It wouldn`t be nice.

Message edited by author 2009-06-27 05:59:44.
06/27/2009 05:59:17 AM · #34
duh..

Message edited by author 2009-06-27 05:59:37.
06/27/2009 12:23:13 PM · #35
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Doc thats a beautiful story, and it speaks to the depth of your faith.

Sadly, I hear a lot of people talking about the Rapture like its a "get out of jail free" card, releasing us of our obligations to be the steward over the lands and the animals that was laid on us long, long ago.


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

In the meantime I'll be trying to bring as many extra-limbed frogs along for the ride as possible...

Originally posted by Melethia:

Rather selfish attitude in a way. Rapture may not come for another 1000 or 10,000 years. Seems it would be nice to give some consideration to those who will be living here until the destruction, eh?

I just have so many issues with the whole concept.

God is perfect, all-knowing, & loving, right?

That whole "If you don't play it my way, I'm taking my football and going home." thing is such a spiteful, petty, human concept.

I just don't buy that God's gonna trash a whole lot of perfectly good people because they've been raised to believe in a different manner than one bunch says.


Well put, Jeb.

Oh, and I was quoting modern Buffett, not even the classic stuff - I'm not that young! :-)
06/27/2009 12:47:12 PM · #36
Originally posted by Melethia:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Doc thats a beautiful story, and it speaks to the depth of your faith.

Sadly, I hear a lot of people talking about the Rapture like its a "get out of jail free" card, releasing us of our obligations to be the steward over the lands and the animals that was laid on us long, long ago.


That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

In the meantime I'll be trying to bring as many extra-limbed frogs along for the ride as possible...

Rather selfish attitude in a way. Rapture may not come for another 1000 or 10,000 years. Seems it would be nice to give some consideration to those who will be living here until the destruction, eh?


God and his followers work in mysterious ways, huh?
06/27/2009 02:55:22 PM · #37
there is a vast difference between the righteous and the self-righteous. I would hope he/she/it would know the difference.
06/28/2009 05:24:28 PM · #38
Originally posted by Melethia:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Doc thats a beautiful story, and it speaks to the depth of your faith.

Sadly, I hear a lot of people talking about the Rapture like its a "get out of jail free" card, releasing us of our obligations to be the steward over the lands and the animals that was laid on us long, long ago.


That's a great point. On one hand I consider myself to be pretty far out there on the "branch of environmentalism". I have always loved nature and it pains me to see us destroy it. On the other hand, I realize at times that, hey, my faith says it's going down this way so why should I be so surprised that it's actually happening.

In the meantime I'll be trying to bring as many extra-limbed frogs along for the ride as possible...

Rather selfish attitude in a way. Rapture may not come for another 1000 or 10,000 years. Seems it would be nice to give some consideration to those who will be living here until the destruction, eh?


I don't quite get the selfish part? Did you misinterpret my lame joke? I was saying I'll remain an environmentalist even though, in the end, I believe there is nothing I can do. As Tolkien aptly put it, I'll fight "the long defeat".
07/01/2009 10:33:05 AM · #39
Every time I see the title of this post, I think of a flying dinosaur.
07/01/2009 11:02:59 AM · #40
Rapture? End times? - We're talking as if this insignificant rock we're living on, this tiny speck in the vastness of the Universe, actually means something.

How arrogant.
07/01/2009 11:28:43 AM · #41
Originally posted by JH:

Rapture? End times? - We're talking as if this insignificant rock we're living on, this tiny speck in the vastness of the Universe, actually means something.


Well, we like to think so.

;-)
07/01/2009 12:55:01 PM · #42
Originally posted by JH:

Rapture? End times? - We're talking as if this insignificant rock we're living on, this tiny speck in the vastness of the Universe, actually means something.

How arrogant.


For all you know that DNA molecule and it's supportive machinery floating around in your cells is the most thermodynamically ordered system in the universe. That seems special to me.

Message edited by author 2009-07-01 12:59:07.
07/01/2009 02:13:53 PM · #43
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by JH:

Rapture? End times? - We're talking as if this insignificant rock we're living on, this tiny speck in the vastness of the Universe, actually means something.

How arrogant.


For all you know that DNA molecule and it's supportive machinery floating around in your cells is the most thermodynamically ordered system in the universe. That seems special to me.

I am 1 individual out of 6 billion living members of our species, our species is 1 animal species out of 10 million animal species, 300,000 plant species, and 10 million bacteria species which inhabit this planet. Our planet is one planet in a galaxy of billions of planets, many of them capable of supporting life. And our galaxy is one of 100 billion galaxies in the Universe.

Not to mention if we extrapolate that across cosmological timescales (i.e. individual of species which may exist on these billions of habitable planets in the Universe during any fraction of time over its entire lifespan)

And I'm special?

Message edited by author 2009-07-01 14:15:38.
07/01/2009 02:17:21 PM · #44
Originally posted by JH:

I am 1 individual out of 6 billion living members of our species, our species is 1 animal species out of 10 million animal species, 300,000 plant species, and 10 million bacteria species which inhabit this planet. Our planet is one planet in a galaxy of billions of planets, many of them capable of supporting life. And our galaxy is one of 100 billion of galaxies in the Universe.

Not to mention if we extrapolate that across cosmological timescales (i.e. individual of species which may exist on these billions of habitable planets in the Universe during any fraction of time over its entire lifespan)

And I'm special?

Actually, yeah.....8>)

Otherwise, what's the point of it all?

To your family, to your friends, to someone whom by a slight act of kindness you made an indelible impression.....you're special, and that's what it's all about.
07/01/2009 02:36:26 PM · #45
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by JH:

I am 1 individual out of 6 billion living members of our species, our species is 1 animal species out of 10 million animal species, 300,000 plant species, and 10 million bacteria species which inhabit this planet. Our planet is one planet in a galaxy of billions of planets, many of them capable of supporting life. And our galaxy is one of 100 billion of galaxies in the Universe.

Not to mention if we extrapolate that across cosmological timescales (i.e. individual of species which may exist on these billions of habitable planets in the Universe during any fraction of time over its entire lifespan)

And I'm special?

Actually, yeah.....8>)

Otherwise, what's the point of it all?

To your family, to your friends, to someone whom by a slight act of kindness you made an indelible impression.....you're special, and that's what it's all about.

That's one of those points that's completely relative. Within a minuscule subset, we are special. In the grand scheme of things, we don't matter at all.

It all depends on which viewpoint you use. :-)
07/01/2009 02:36:33 PM · #46
Originally posted by JH:

I am 1 individual out of 6 billion living members of our species, our species is 1 animal species out of 10 million animal species, 300,000 plant species, and 10 million bacteria species which inhabit this planet. Our planet is one planet in a galaxy of billions of planets, many of them capable of supporting life. And our galaxy is one of 100 billion galaxies in the Universe.

Not to mention if we extrapolate that across cosmological timescales (i.e. individual of species which may exist on these billions of habitable planets in the Universe during any fraction of time over its entire lifespan)

And I'm special?


It's a completely philosophical question because we have virtually zero evidence for or against our specialness. If it happens to be that earth is the only place where an information storing molecule such as DNA exists, yes, you are very, very special.

Who cares how many other DNA organisms exist on Earth? If Earth is the thermodynamic center of the vast cosmos, then that is pretty awe inspiring.

I certainly understand the "we can't be the only ones out there" argument, but it is no more valid than the "we are the only ones out there" argument. Both are complete speculation because, as I've said, we have zero evidence for or against either argument. Any argument which favors one side or the other will involve a priori assumption which likely is based upon one's worldview.

So in the end I'm just providing a little yin to your yang.

Message edited by author 2009-07-01 14:39:23.
07/01/2009 02:42:45 PM · #47
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by JH:

I am 1 individual out of 6 billion living members of our species, our species is 1 animal species out of 10 million animal species, 300,000 plant species, and 10 million bacteria species which inhabit this planet. Our planet is one planet in a galaxy of billions of planets, many of them capable of supporting life. And our galaxy is one of 100 billion galaxies in the Universe.

Not to mention if we extrapolate that across cosmological timescales (i.e. individual of species which may exist on these billions of habitable planets in the Universe during any fraction of time over its entire lifespan)

And I'm special?


It's a completely philosophical question because we have virtually zero evidence for or against our specialness. If it happens to be that earth is the only place where an information storing molecule such as DNA exists, yes, you are very, very special.

Who cares how many other DNA organisms exist on Earth? If Earth is the thermodynamic center of the vast cosmos, then that is pretty awe inspiring.

I certainly understand the "we can't be the only ones out there" argument, but it is no more valid than the "we are the only ones out there" argument. Both are complete speculation because, as I've said, we have zero evidence for or against either argument. Any argument which favors one side or the other will involve a priori assumption which likely is based upon one's worldview.

So in the end I'm just providing a little yin to your yang.


Well, aren't YOU special! or maybe not.

but anyone out there have self esteem issues, do NOT contact JH! ;-)
07/01/2009 03:09:37 PM · #48
Originally posted by DrAchoo:


For all you know that DNA molecule and it's supportive machinery floating around in your cells is the most thermodynamically ordered system in the universe. That seems special to me.


I curious Doc. What if, we all like what if's, right? What if three years from now a new rover on Mars finds conclusive evidence of life on that planet? Would that have any affect on how you think of the current subject? For you it would be that needed proof of life of this terrestrial body. I personally don't need it. If life is here, it's darn near everywhere. Just because I can see it, feel it, touch it, or smell it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Opps, I've accidentally defined faith. :)
07/01/2009 03:15:48 PM · #49
Originally posted by FireBird:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:


For all you know that DNA molecule and it's supportive machinery floating around in your cells is the most thermodynamically ordered system in the universe. That seems special to me.


I curious Doc. What if, we all like what if's, right? What if three years from now a new rover on Mars finds conclusive evidence of life on that planet? Would that have any affect on how you think of the current subject? For you it would be that needed proof of life of this terrestrial body. I personally don't need it. If life is here, it's darn near everywhere. Just because I can see it, feel it, touch it, or smell it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Opps, I've accidentally defined faith. :)


Like I said, I understand the argument for life elsewhere. One of my points is that even though it sounds "scientific" to make such assumptions, it is no more so than assuming we are the only life in the universe. To properly ascertain the liklihood that life exists elsewhere we need to know the liklihood of life arising in any one place. We have zero idea what that number looks like. If it's high, life is everywhere. If it's low, life could be nowhere but here. And that is already conceding the argument that life can only arise by chance/evolution. It says nothing about life being created (which doesn't really help us. If life is created it could still be everywhere or just here.)

Life on Mars would be very interesting. However, the devil would be in the details as Martian life could be cross-contamination from Earth life or even vice-versa (we could all be Martian in origin).

Message edited by author 2009-07-01 15:17:19.
07/01/2009 04:04:45 PM · #50
Originally posted by DrAchoo:



Life on Mars would be very interesting. However, the devil would be in the details as Martian life could be cross-contamination from Earth life or even vice-versa (we could all be Martian in origin).


Your choice of words is ironically amusing. Red; devil. har har ;)
Seriously though, the whole idea of assuming the presence of life would have to be on Mars for it to be amazing in a statistical sense is only owed to our own ignorance of the universe. The vastness surpasses almost all individuals concepts of "the world" or "universe" or whatever you choose to call it. To assume it is necessary for life to develop TWICE in a miniscule backwoods area of the universe is a lot to ask.
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' DrAchoo, out of curiosity, do you follow a sort of Kierkegaard viewpoint? What of the problem of evil? Perhaps this belongs in the ask a Christian thread, but I think it's related so I'll posit it here.

Message edited by author 2009-07-01 16:05:28.
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