New Terms of Use agreement - DPChallenge Forums

12/04/2002 11:16:25 PM · #1

I just wanted to say that it's a really icky feeling when you agree to something you just CAN'T read because it's so long and full of legalese. Can anyone give me the gist of that document?

I know one person who doesn't want to continue with DPC because he doesn't like having that kind of thing thrown at him :(.

Other than that... I saw the new site when it was first opened up for testing, but I haven't been active on DPC in general so a lot of things are still a surprise to me. But I like it, and I can't wait to start submitting with my new camera (when it arrives... I had to get it shipped via an American friend).

HBunch

HP PhotoSmart 315

12/04/2002 11:31:34 PM · #2

I read it ONLY because I'm a moderator, and felt that it was full of information that I should know in order to fully help out here on the site. Normally I would have skipped right over it. lol. But Basically, all it says, is follow the rules, don't be a jerk, if you're a paid member, and are a jerk, then you'll lose your membership with no refund. If you're under 13 years old, don't put your personal info on here, or it will be removed. Don't be rasist, sexist, religionest, or anything else 'ist' or you'll be removed. No sexual discussions unless related to art. No providing other people's 'offline' contact information. It also says that anyone using 'tools' to hinder or disrupt the normal flow of the site, such as something to overrun the web site with non existant users, will be removed. It says that if for any reason the police or FBI want your information, DPC will be happy to give it to them in the event of an emergency.
It also says, that if for some reason it's illegal in your counrty to access DPC (I'm sure it could happen, but pretty darn sure it's not illegal anywhere) that DPC is not responsible if you break that law.
Basicall, it says don't be stupid and don't break any laws, and don't conduct yourself in a manner that is rude, crude, perverse, or illegal. I don't see why anyone would have a problem agreeing to that.
The reason they have to put all that in there, is if we get some kiddie porn bunghole on here, and he's a paid member, we can kick him outta here with no questions asked.
I like those rules.

Message edited by author 2002-12-04 23:37:32.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/05/2002 12:00:04 AM · #3

It also says they'll "try" to provide a service which may or may not be suitable for you, but if it isn't or they change it or go away, tough; sue them in Virginia Beach.

I saw maybe three paragraphs for which I'm going to ask for clarification or modification, but otherwise it's pretty standard legalese for what Heather said.

12/05/2002 12:26:49 AM · #4

OK... is this agreement for both paying and non-paying members? It might be nice to have a less formal agreement for non-paying members to agree to, because it's unusual for free sites to include a lot of those clauses.

Here's a list of the ones that puppet10 (the guy I mentioned before) has identified as being a bit hostile towards users in their wording:

"1) The changability clause is ugly because it allows them (not that they will) to change the terms and not request you review them again and worse not even require them to notify you of a change, only post the new terms to the website somewhere.

2) You can't tell anyone else any information on the website if youve registered - (section 1 -- You may not use the information of DPChallenge.com or any other Registered User in any manner that would enable a third party to obtain the benefits of the Website and the information and services offered thereby without first becoming a Registered User and using the Website to access such information and services. You agree that any information that you obtain through the Website is confidential and proprietary information of DPChallenge.com and its other users. Except as expressly set forth herein, you may not reproduce or distribute any information available from the Website, electronically or otherwise. You shall not store or aggregate such information in any manner.)

3) dpc can take any information it likes though - (section 2 -- DPChallenge.com may, in its sole discretion, and without your consent or payment to you, place links on the Website to other websites on the Internet that are owned or operated by third parties. ) -- but again you can't give dpc info out - (You shall not deep link to any page on the Website or otherwise link in a manner that bypasses the Website home page.)

4) but doesnt obligate dpc in anyway to anything - section 2 - Notice of Policies. This Agreement is intended to give you notice of DPChallenge.com's policies, but is not intended to impose a contractual obligation on DPChallenge.com to undertake, or refrain from undertaking, any particular course of conduct.

5) the all your base are belong to us clause
section 2- Registered user information
the information that you and other users of the Website supply to DPChallenge.com via the registration process, information relating to you or other Registered Users provided to DPChallenge.com or other Registered Users via the Website, and information relating to the digital photos, Website content and other related materials (the ?Media?) (collectively information supplied by you shall be referred to herein as ?Registered User Information?), are subject to the following terms and conditions:

Solely to enable DPChallenge.com to use the Registered User Information and Media that you supply to DPChallenge.com, you hereby grant DPChallenge.com a nonexclusive, worldwide, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty-free, sublicensable (through multiple tiers) right to exercise any rights you have in the Registered User Information and Media, and otherwise to make use of the Registered User Information and Media (including publishing, disseminating, broadcasting, manipulating, reproducing, editing, translating, performing, modifying, or displaying any part of the Registered User Information and/or Media alone or as part of other work in any form, media, or technology whether now new known or hereafter developed. You hereby specifically authorize
DPChallenge.com, Challenging Technologies, LLC and its officers, directors, members, stockholders, volunteer assistants, independent contractors, employees, agents, and affiliates (collectively, "Affiliates") to use such Registered User Information as a part of the aggregated transaction information that DPChallenge.com publishes, uses and transfers, at its sole discretion on the Website and in any other medium.

6) sections 5&6 are typical, weaselly lawyer sections saying they arent resposible for anything again, understandable, but still annoying (especially if you are giving them money).

7) Attorney's Fees. In a dispute concerning this Agreement, the prevailing party shall be entitled to attorneys' fees, together with expenses and costs incurred in connection with such enforcement.

And

Choice of Law; Jurisdiction and Venue. This Agreement shall be governed and interpreted in accordance with the substantive law of the Commonwealth of Virginia without regard to its conflict of law provisions. The parties irrevocably submit themselves to the non-exclusive jurisdiction of the state and federal courts located in Virginia Beach, Virginia for the purpose of bringing any action that may be brought in connection with this Agreement. The parties agree that they shall not assert any claim that they are not subject to the jurisdiction of such courts, that the venue is improper, that the forum is inconvenient or any similar objection, claim or argument. To the maximum extent permitted by law, the notice provision of this Agreement shall apply to service of process with respect to any action brought under this Agreement. Upon the mutual agreement of both parties, disputes may be settled via arbitration, under the rules of the American Arbitration Association, instead of in the state and federal courts located in Virginia Beach, Virginia.

These are typical lawyer stuff... but still annoying."

By being "annoying" his objection is just that these kinds of clauses imply that the site doesn't trust the users or doesn't want to go out of its way to be welcoming to users. The one about DPC owning users' media is a bit more worrying... I hope it doesn't deter people who actually make some money from their work and prints from submitting photos.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/05/2002 12:57:16 AM · #5

lisae -- you highlighted what I was most concerned about.

#2) If I look up camera prices, I can't tell anyone?

#5) Licensing: I don't think I am (or should be) granting DPC the right to issue a royalty-free sublicense to Hallmark to print up greeting cards. I think:
a) The license should only be for the purposes of promoting or running the site, not for sale at a profit.
b) The license should also be revocable by the user upon relenquishing their membership, except to the extent the content has already been incorporated (e.g. archive challenges).

Tamron SP 24-70mm F/2.8 Di VC USD for Nikon

12/05/2002 01:01:12 AM · #6

I'm going to try to clear some of this up, because it's completely unfair for you to act like we're a bunch of jerks. Anyone who has been on the site knows that this is completely untrue.

Because my attempt at a clarification may dull the effects of the license, know that what I say here does not affect the license in any way. I read it just the same as you, and I talked to our lawyer about a lot of this stuf -- so I'm doing my best to tell you where it's coming from.

We added terms of use because the site now accepts money, and as much as I'd love to trust man's good nature, it's just not smart for us to do that. We're two guys who have put almost a year of our lives into coding this website, and we can't stand to take a chance with it now. As administrators of the site, we're also privledged to several of the very nasty e-mails we've received concerning our free site. Just imagine how ugly that could get when money is involved. Much for the same reason, we've incorporated (hence Challenging Technologies, LLC).

1. Changeability. We initially coded the site to have you reagree to the terms any time we changed them. We quickly found out how annoying that was. Our lawyer informed us that it was perfectly legal to ask that users read the terms of use in conjunction with their site usage. The date last modified is at the top of the page in bold. This, like most of the other things you have a complaint about, is standard in many terms of use articles. This was also the case on the old site.

2. Don't share your login information. Doing so would mean that people are sharing accounts. This was banned in the old site as well.
edit: I read your complaint about 2 wrong. I'll ask our lawyer about that section.

3. 'we can take any information we like'?? Read that section again. It says we can place 3rd party links on the site, and we don't guarantee the accuracy of those links. The term 'deep linking' is meant to refer specifically to image files, not to linking to pages. I'll discuss this with our lawyer.

4. Is what it says... we don't specifically outline the course of action for a lot of violations of terms of use. Just use common sense here.

5. By submitting information/images to the site, you grant us a (nonexclusive, etc.) license for us to display that stuff on the site.

6. If you break the law through us, we aren't responsible for you breaking the law. Unfair?

7. If you live in Paris and sue us, you could make us go to Paris to go to court without that clause. If there's a legal discrepancy, the winner pays the other's lawyer fees.

You can call us weasley all you like, but there's absolutely nothing there we're trying to hide. I take it as an insult that you would think that as well.

For the record, check out some of your favorite free sites that apparently aren't having you agree to a lengthy terms of service. Yahoo, Hotmail, CNN, blah blah blah... they are. The difference may be that we make a sincere attempt to have you read and accept the terms to use the site.

Drew

Message edited by author 2002-12-05 01:12:54.

HBunch

HP PhotoSmart 315

12/05/2002 01:01:37 AM · #7

I guess I'm not seeing the problem with #2. It's saying that a creep can't come on here, take all our email addresses and sell them. Or say someone in here was involved in a law suit to keep their children, and the lawyers found this site and found something "incriminating" (what ever that could be) against that person, that it can't be reproduced and held against that person. These rules are here to protect us.
#3 is saying that they can add advertisements if they want, and that they can post your tutorials, and your words (in the forum), and your critiques and not have to pay you for it.
Say a professional comes in here and gives some friendly advice in the forums. Great. now, that professional comes back and says. "you have to pay me for that, because I'm a professional". DPC can say, 'no we don't'. because it was on his own free will that he posted his words on this web site.
Believe it or not, with the way things are nowadays, someone could actually get away with something so assanine as that. Now, DPC covers their butt.
The part about attorneys fees is just saying that if you want to take DPC to court for anything, you're responsible for the fees.
I still think the rules are great.
I feel very safe with them, and think that it actually increases our protection and safety here on DPC.
I could be reading these wrong, so, like it says in the "rules and guidelines" don't believe everything you hear in the forums. lol

Message edited by author 2002-12-05 01:03:39.

jimmsp

Canon EOS-60D

12/05/2002 01:15:52 AM · #8

Because DPC is now charging money to become a member, they have to be covered legally as best as possible. I accept that.
You and I have a tremendous advantage over most, if not all, other sites that charge to join. We have been able to try this for some time for free. You and I know how the site operators handle disputes, problems, hassles, etc. We keep coming back - because we like it here. Do you think they will radically change because of a small fee. I don't think so. And for $25 a year - what a cheap gamble. I for one will take it. I speed read the agreement, and there is nothing there that I will worry about.
The fundamental question is - do you and I trust these guys?
I do - I've seen them in action for months.
Now, off to shoot more pictures, trying to improve my skills. That's my biggest worry here.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/05/2002 01:18:40 AM · #9

Originally posted by drewmedia:

I'm going to try to clear some of this up, because it's completely unfair for you to act like we're a bunch of jerks. Anyone who has been on the site knows that this is completely untrue.

5. By submitting information/images to the site, you grant us a (nonexclusive, etc.) license for us to display that stuff on the site.

You can call us weasley all you like, but there's absolutely nothing there we're trying to hide. I take it as an insult that you would think that as well.

For the record, check out some of your favorite free sites that apparently aren't having you agree to a lengthy terms of service. Yahoo, Hotmail, CNN, blah blah blah... they are. The difference may be that we make a sincere attempt to have you read and accept the terms to use the site.

Drew

Drew -- I don't think for an instant that you're jerks or acting weaselly...and I agree (and said) that a lot of this stuff is standard, which is why I clicked on the "agree" button and re-registered right after I read it.

However, standard or not, believe section 5 grants you a LOT more than the right to display the photos/content on the website. I will agree to these conditions here when I've refused to at other sites (e.g. iWon.com user photo section) precisely because I DO trust you to be doing the right thing, even in the face of language which I believe grants you rights which, if ever fully exercised, would be exploitive.

In retrospect, it might have been good to sumbit this for comments like was done with the rules, or at least alert people that part of te re-launch was going to involve reading a new agreement before resuming use of the site. To see the new login page pop up, and to then have to wade through all of that stuff before using it, was kinda frustrating and interrupted the "mood."

12/05/2002 01:46:55 AM · #10

Drew, I didn't call you a jerk, and the term "weaselly" was applied to the language of the agreement, which we all know was written by lawyers, not by you and Langdon. I can't stand feeling as though every time I bring up any point at all I'm treading on people's toes! I'm a nice person, honestly. It's not my nature at all to go around insulting people.

If I didn't understand that the issue of paying members is important here, I wouldn't have made the distinction at the very beginning of my post. This agreement is suitable for paying members, but why shove it in front of non-paying members when they decide to register or login for the first time?

12/05/2002 01:47:22 AM · #11

Originally posted by GeneralE:

However, standard or not, believe section 5 grants you a LOT more than the right to display the photos/content on the website. I will agree to these conditions here when I've refused to at other sites (e.g. iWon.com user photo section) precisely because I DO trust you to be doing the right thing, even in the face of language which I believe grants you rights which, if ever fully exercised, would be exploitive.

Hi Paul,

I know this clause was added by our lawyer specifically because we discussed future plans for the site, the most immediate of which has a number of legal issues associated with it. We're going to do our best to offer a print-selling service on the site in the coming months. While we're going to have to work out with the print supplier exactly how licensing works, our lawyer told us he'd save us some time/money/trouble by building the language into the terms of use for the necessary rights to print/distribute that media. I'm pretty certain that's why that section is written that way -- I'll double-check with the lawyer.

Drew

indigo997

Nikon D70

12/05/2002 01:49:11 AM · #12

I think that most of this is needed (not to mention overdue) and had no problem agreeing to it.
However, I agree that #5 is a little worrisome. It does seem to give permission for a lot more than just using our posts and photos on this site. We post in forums and submit our pictures freely and, in so doing, we agree to their use here on the site. That does not mean that I agree to let dpc reproduce, publish, and disseminate my photos anywhere else, but that does seem to be what it says.

OOps, I posted at the same time as you, Drew. I guess my question then would be... doesn't that clause mean that dpc could sell prints of our photos without giving us anything? I thought the idea was to allow US to be able to sell them on the site.

Message edited by author 2002-12-05 01:51:32.

12/05/2002 01:54:13 AM · #13

Originally posted by lisae:

This agreement is suitable for paying members, but why shove it in front of non-paying members when they decide to register or login for the first time?

Those non-paying members are submitting images and commenting and posting and voting and otherwise doing things that we're liable for. We chose to make the agreement an active click rather than just a link at the bottom of our website in an effort to make the process as clear and legally sound as possible. Without sharing e-mails or cease-and-desists with you, you'll just have to take my word for it that there have been issues in the past... and that was before money was ever involved in the site.

Drew

12/05/2002 01:56:47 AM · #14

Originally posted by indigo997:

doesn't that clause mean that dpc could sell prints of our photos without giving us anything? I thought the idea was to allow US to be able to sell them on the site.

Until our lawyer gets back from vacation, you'll have to take my solemn word for it that we aren't selling your photos to anyone. The way he explained it to me, you give us a license to distrubute your photo, and then we give the printer a license, and the user who buys your photo has a license, and... yeah. Now you see why we asked a laywer to help us out :)

Drew

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/05/2002 01:57:35 AM · #15

Drew --

I figured it was like that, and I think it's fine to wait to consult with (pay) the lawyer until you have all the issues/questions raised, and do it at one time. And I certainly plan to check out the printing services when that happens.
That section IS very broad and ambiguous; however, I think there's a difference between calling certain language objectionable and actually objecting to it, if you catch my drift. I'm not worried about this, and think we should all be first concentrating on making sure that the submissions and voting and stuff work properly...

12/05/2002 02:02:13 AM · #16

Originally posted by GeneralE:

consult with (pay)

you've had a lawyer before.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

I'm not worried about this, and think we should all be first concentrating on making sure that the submissions and voting and stuff work properly...

I'd love to ;)

Drew

12/05/2002 02:02:28 AM · #17

I do understand there are a lot of legal issues involved in running this site. And I'd like to emphasise that I DID agree to the terms of use (otherwise I wouldn't be posting here). I trust you guys completely. I just think that all that legal language was a bit impenetrable, and to anyone who hesitates for a second to try and work out what it all means it can SEEM hostile.

How about putting up a version in plain language, stating what your intentions are as the admins of the site, and link to the full version with all its jargon for anyone who wants to read the whole thing?

12/05/2002 02:06:45 AM · #18

By the way, I've just been through a similar process at the school I'm going to now, because we're going to be doing group work on some 3d games and TV series development (fun :)). We have to sign an agreement that basically vests our IP in the school until the end of our course, after which time it transfers to whoever the group decides has the power of attorney in legal matters, and then ... etc. etc. Also, the school gets 10% of any options or backend payments on our projects for 7 years, blah blah blah. You can't BEGIN to imagine the squabbles that have gone on over that!!

I didn't mean to start anything of that nature here. It's not worth it, honestly :).

HBunch

HP PhotoSmart 315

12/05/2002 02:07:46 AM · #19

Here's what I get out of section #5...
(here is a situation where it might aply)
If ever DPChallenge were featured in a magazine, or on TV, and showed part of the web site, and say your image was on the front page, they don't have to pay you, AND this even gives them permission to give you credit for your work, by saying that they can use your info in a situation like that.
Ok, here is another example. Remember on the old DPC, at the top of the page, it used random images from past challenges (I remember the stop sign specifically). What happened if one of those people said..."hey, you're using my photo in an advertisement, and you need to pay me for every time that my image showed up on your web site".
DPC would be sued, they could lose (because there was no disclaimer that that COULD happen), and we would not have our DPC anymore.
Well, frankly, I don't want to ever lose DPC, so Drew and Lang do what ever you have to do to cover your ass, cause there is ALWAYS going to be one jerk that is going to look for a way to screw you over for a few bucks.
~Heather~

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/05/2002 02:13:19 AM · #20

Originally posted by lisae:

How about putting up a version in plain language, stating what your intentions are as the admins of the site, and link to the full version with all its jargon for anyone who wants to read the whole thing?

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter.
-Pascal

12/05/2002 02:19:28 AM · #21

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by lisae:
How about putting up a version in plain language, stating what your intentions are as the admins of the site, and link to the full version with all its jargon for anyone who wants to read the whole thing?

I have made this letter longer than usual because I lack the time to make it shorter.
-Pascal

Yes, I understand. I do not believe that Drew and Langdon have done anything at all unreasonable, given all the work that has gone into this new site. The suggestions I've made or questions I've raised have been 100% about making the site more welcoming, more popular, more successful, etc. Surely if a previous user has decided he objected to the agreement enough to perhaps not continue submitting to the new site, it's an important issue that should be ironed out before more people are affected? No?

indigo997

Nikon D70

12/05/2002 02:25:52 AM · #22

I think a simplified version would sort of negate the authority of the actual version. I completely understand putting it in front of every user and making them agree to it. I also don't have any doubt or worry about posting here or how it will be used. I was just saying that I can see where the language of that clause might seem a little questionable to new users.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

12/05/2002 02:27:42 AM · #23

lisae -- Yes, think it's a very important issue, but it's also a time/priority thing, and I'm inclined to let it slide for a couple of weeks while we get basic site functions working smoothly, and enough PayPal transactions have completed to cover the lawyer (vacationing WHERE?).

Also, the intent of my quotation above was to emphasize that it would take a LONG time to re-write that document so that it's both comprehensible and comprehensive, and as binding as if the user read the whole thing. (And I'm worried about stuck with the job...)

I thought Heather's summary near the beginning of this thread was a good enough summary for now...

Message edited by author 2002-12-05 02:31:19.