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Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2004 12:31:00 AM · #201

Originally posted by rcrawford:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I think it's the fundamentalist Christians that are the problem...not all Christians.

Some of my best friends are Christians.

Do any of your Christian friends commit or even support any of the activity that you and orussell listed?

Nope, if they did they wouldn't be my friends any more. I meant it as a serious remark in recognition that it's is wrong to paint all individuals with the broad brush of their various associations ...

The place I work, out of fewer than 20 employees, has:

People representing nine birthplaces/heritages (USA, Mexico, Phillipines, Japan, Pakistan, Iran, Africa, Laos, and Thailand), at least three or four religions, and up to four sexual orientations.

People really don't have to hate people for who they are ... kids have to be taught that by their parents.

MadMordegon

05/12/2004 12:31:18 AM · #202

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

You can't condemn an entire religion/people for what some zealot idiots have done.

its damn hard not to tho..

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2004 12:32:50 AM · #203

Originally posted by Russell2566:

... he is the first president in about 12 years that has any balls ...

The Clinton years taught you nothing?

05/12/2004 12:38:27 AM · #204

Oly, I'm tired of playing the "politically correct" game. The fact of the matter is, you don't see Christain Zealots doing this, you don't see Buda zealots doing this, you don't see Jewish Zealots doing this... But you DO see Muslim zealots doing this.

What does that tell you? It tells me that in general, the Muslim religon condons this, and accepts it, to a much larger degree then other religons. Why is that?

I will however give C.A.R.E, a muslim group in the US, a thumbs up for condmening this. But it's amazing when you have to actually mention or point out that a Muslim group (like CARE) actually condems this, instead of knowing that they all do in general (which is NOT the case).

MadMordegon

05/12/2004 12:44:07 AM · #205

just watched the american getting his head cut off while he was alive. i think EVERYONE should watch it. for no other reason to see what happens in war.. just war.

im going to go puke now.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2004 12:49:09 AM · #206

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Oly, I'm tired of playing the "politically correct" game. The fact of the matter is, you don't see Christain Zealots doing this ...

I seem to remember a fairly recent case of a zealot -- probably Christian -- assassinating a physician in his kitchen, because he performed (legal) abortions. Is sniping from the bushes and firebombing clinics now considered a "manly" way to confront your enemies?

It wasn't Jews who carried out the rape/genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, so I guess the perpetrators of that were some variety of Christians too.

It seems to me that one of the most fundamental teachings of Christ was to "love your enemy," and that if he hits you, to "turn the other cheek." Well, maybe people are tired of getting their butts kicked, but just don't be professing to be "upholding Christian values" as you carry out the slaughter -- admit to the all-too human emotions of anger and vengeance, and remember that you're treading on God's turf now ...

Damian

Nikon D200

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

05/12/2004 12:58:13 AM · #207

Am I the only one who thinks watching a person getting killed very disrespectful??????

WATCHING this video benefits nobody in no way. We know what happend, we do not need to see it with our eyes.

Be respectful and pass on this video.

Message edited by author 2004-05-12 00:59:14.

05/12/2004 01:02:24 AM · #208

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

just war. im going to go puke now.

It's awefull... I didn't think I could watch it, but my wife was on the net saying "come on, here it is... take a look". Ack. It's disgusting what people do to each other. But sometimes you have to force yourself to watch to know who is the enemy. I'm not just saying this without knowing what I'm talking about. Muslim religon is primative and is taken LITERRALLY by most (yes most, 90% of the people) as the absolute word of THEIR God.

The difference is, Christains and other religons have gone through "reformation" of the religon and teachings within recent history, where as, the Muslim religon ideals, beliefs, and adherance to the exact words, has not changed for 1300 years. Yes, 1300 years. That means these people are living in the 7th century.

Now you are beginning to understand the Muslim religon, yes?

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

05/12/2004 01:06:20 AM · #209

Originally posted by Damian:

Be respectful and pass on this video.

That's a good thought in general, but if you pass on watching it, you are CLOSING YOUR EYES to what is going on. You are sticking your head in the sand like an Ostrich. Sad but true. Don't do it. Usually, the truth hurts.

Damian

Nikon D200

05/12/2004 01:13:40 AM · #210

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Originally posted by Damian:
Be respectful and pass on this video.

That's a good thought in general, but if you pass on watching it, you are CLOSING YOUR EYES to what is going on. You are sticking your head in the sand like an Ostrich. Sad but true. Don't do it. Usually, the truth hurts.

Just tell me what the difference is between knowing what happend and seeing what happend? I see no difference. We are all aware of what is happening, no need to watch it too. How does one benefit from watching another being murdered?

05/12/2004 01:26:04 AM · #211

I'm not playing politically correct Chris...I doubt that many Muslims would condone this sort of horror...You can believe what you want, but most people wouldn't...and it does sound like you already have your mind made up and want to be bigoted...that's part of the problem...when does the hatred that leads to the violence end??? It's a never ending spiral down a trecherous road that can only wind up with more deaths on all sides. It will wind up bringing other countries into this in a way that will complicate things and make for more events such as this.

There have been many otracities in the history of the world that have been declared in the name of religion or idealogy and perpetrated by many governments or groups. You may not have seen a lot of it because it happens elsewhere and usually those perpetrating it don't want to aire it. The US has done it's share, as well as, GB, France, and many other countries. We have done things like the Mei Lai massacre, supported death squads in Central America and Haiti...I mean, the list goes on.

I think a good question to ask is what could drive a person to act to do such haneous (sp?) crimes...In your opinion, it seems to be that Muslim people are just an inately hateful criminal bunch. That's such black and white thinking...You're easily lead and manipulated, I would say.

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

05/12/2004 01:31:35 AM · #212

Ever hear of the Christian Reconstructionists, Chris?
Would be good for you to look them up.
I believe they think this way too.

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

The difference is, Christains and other religons have gone through "reformation" of the religon and teachings within recent history, where as, the Muslim religon ideals, beliefs, and adherance to the exact words, has not changed for 1300 years. Yes, 1300 years. That means these people are living in the 7th century.

Now you are beginning to understand the Muslim religon, yes?

05/12/2004 01:35:19 AM · #213

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Oly, I'm tired of playing the "politically correct" game. The fact of the matter is, you don't see Christain Zealots doing this ...

I seem to remember a fairly recent case of a zealot -- probably Christian -- assassinating a physician in his kitchen, because he performed (legal) abortions. Is sniping from the bushes and firebombing clinics now considered a "manly" way to confront your enemies?

I knew someone would bring up this ridiculous counter-arguement. Christain haters are all over the place and seem to love to counter things with these weak arguements: One Christain who kills an abortionist, or one Jew who kills an Arab, or one black man who kills a white man, or one White man that kills a black man, is certainly no arguement at all that ALL race/religons in general are as backwards thinking as Muslims. I will stand by this arguement. If you can't understand or accept it, it's because you are just so politically correct that even acknowledging this to you is "blasfamous" in your mind.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

It wasn't Jews who carried out the rape/genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, so I guess the perpetrators of that were some variety of Christians too.

Nice try. This is what Clinton told you to cover up his problems with Monica. Get your facts straight, the muslims overran our WWII allies the Serbs, in order to spread their filthy Muslim religon into Europe. Clinton in his great wisdom choose to defend the muslims and let them slaughter Christains in the name of political correctness and to draw attention away from his scandal. This is seen in ever country that these muslim pigs invade. Just ask New Zeland, Australia, France, Britain, Africa and many other people of European/other countries how they feel about the Muslim invasion of their countries and how it effects them. Muslims have done this throught time, and they are doing it again today.

Originally posted by GeneralE:

It seems to me that one of the most fundamental teachings of Christ was to "love your enemy," and that if he hits you, to "turn the other cheek." Well, maybe people are tired of getting their butts kicked, but just don't be professing to be "upholding Christian values" as you carry out the slaughter -- admit to the all-too human emotions of anger and vengeance, and remember that you're treading on God's turf now ...

Well GeneralE, I won't claim to be a strict follower of "the teachings of Christ" as you must be, and I'm not sure why you hate Christains so much either, but you are obviously a radical Christain hater or Athiest (which is fine), but I'm sick and tired of people like this who justify the actions of some Muslims purely motivated by their hatred for religon in general, and for Christains in particular. Your country was founded on Christianity, so get used to it. :)

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED

05/12/2004 01:44:28 AM · #214

Originally posted by Damian:

Well this is exactly what I thought about tonight on my way home from work... I thought I'm not going to watch the video, I just don't want to think about it or see it and forget about it. It's a normal reaction.

But in general, people need to be shocked in order for them to change their attitudes about things. Most people think that if I don't see it, or don't know about, then they are protected from it and won't have to worry about it, and it won't effect them. Logical thought but only half true: It won't effect them in the short term, but in the long term it will effect them evenually. Take your medicine now or later, it's up to you. :)

Damian

Nikon D200

05/12/2004 01:48:52 AM · #215

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Originally posted by Damian:
Just tell me what the difference is between knowing what happend and seeing what happend? I see no difference. We are all aware of what is happening, no need to watch it too. How does one benefit from watching another being murdered?

Well this is exactly what I thought about tonight on my way home from work... I thought I'm not going to watch the video, I just don't want to think about it or see it and forget about it. It's a normal reaction.

But in general, people need to be shocked in order for them to change their attitudes about things. Most people think that if I don't see it, or don't know about, then they are protected from it and won't have to worry about it, and it won't effect them. Logical thought but only half true: It won't effect them in the short term, but in the long term it will effect them evenually. Take your medicine now or later, it's up to you. :)

I agree with you on shock factor Chris. I believe that showing respect far outweighs my need to be shocked and for this to sink in for me. I saw the video of Daniel Pearl last year (by accident) and I thought I was very disrespectful in watching those actions.

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/12/2004 01:50:34 AM · #216

No one here is condoning this otracity...and no one here is a Christian hater either. I can say with certainty that your line of thinking is disgusting.

And since when was this country founded on Christian principles? I thought there was supposed to be seperation of church and state.

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Oly, I'm tired of playing the "politically correct" game. The fact of the matter is, you don't see Christain Zealots doing this ...

I seem to remember a fairly recent case of a zealot -- probably Christian -- assassinating a physician in his kitchen, because he performed (legal) abortions. Is sniping from the bushes and firebombing clinics now considered a "manly" way to confront your enemies?

I knew someone would bring up this ridiculous counter-arguement. Christain haters are all over the place and seem to love to counter things with these weak arguements: One Christain who kills an abortionist, or one Jew who kills an Arab, or one black man who kills a white man, or one White man that kills a black man, is certainly no arguement at all that ALL race/religons in general are as backwards thinking as Muslims. I will stand by this arguement. If you can't understand or accept it, it's because you are just so politically correct that even acknowledging this to you is "blasfamous" in your mind.

Originally posted by GeneralE:
It wasn't Jews who carried out the rape/genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, so I guess the perpetrators of that were some variety of Christians too.

Nice try. This is what Clinton told you to cover up his problems with Monica. Get your facts straight, the muslims overran our WWII allies the Serbs, in order to spread their filthy Muslim religon into Europe. Clinton in his great wisdom choose to defend the muslims and let them slaughter Christains in the name of political correctness and to draw attention away from his scandal. This is seen in ever country that these muslim pigs invade. Just ask New Zeland, Australia, France, Britain, Africa and many other people of European/other countries how they feel about the Muslim invasion of their countries and how it effects them. Muslims have done this throught time, and they are doing it again today.

Originally posted by GeneralE:
It seems to me that one of the most fundamental teachings of Christ was to "love your enemy," and that if he hits you, to "turn the other cheek." Well, maybe people are tired of getting their butts kicked, but just don't be professing to be "upholding Christian values" as you carry out the slaughter -- admit to the all-too human emotions of anger and vengeance, and remember that you're treading on God's turf now ...

Well GeneralE, I won't claim to be a strict follower of "the teachings of Christ" as you must be, and I'm not sure why you hate Christains so much either, but you are obviously a radical Christain hater or Athiest (which is fine), but I'm sick and tired of people like this who justify the actions of some Muslims purely motivated by their hatred for religon in general, and for Christains in particular. Your country was founded on Christianity, so get used to it. :)

garrywhite2

Canon EOS-7D

05/12/2004 01:52:57 AM · #217

(edit removed unecessary drivel, too many bad things already happening in the world)

Message edited by author 2004-05-12 03:05:20.

05/12/2004 02:10:33 AM · #218

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

You can believe what you want, but most people wouldn't...and it does sound like you already have your mind made up and want to be bigoted...that's part of the problem.

I'm far from a bigot. I just see what is going on. Do you? For me it took 9-11 to wake me up before I became a "bigot" if that's what you want to call it. Before then, I didn't have a clue nor even thought about it. But today, the threat to your way of life is truely in jeopordy and it seems that some still don't realize it.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

..when does the hatred that leads to the violence end??? It's a never ending spiral down a trecherous road that can only wind up with more deaths on all sides.

This is the million dollar question. I don't know. I know that radical Muslims can't be reasoned with and can't be bargained with. They must be "dealt" with. The root of the problem I think, is, that the religon is so primative that we are basically dealing with "cavemen" (and women) in a way. For example, if you come across a vicous barking/biting dog in someone's yard... Do you try to make friends with it? Is it even possible? I don't think it is in a lot of cases. I'm not trying to be funny here, just practical and honest about the situation.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

There have been many otracities in the history of the world that have been declared in the name of religion or idealogy and perpetrated by many governments.... The US has done it's share, as well as, GB, France, and many other countries.

But in general the countries above do NOT have records of atrocities, where as other countries DO have records of this. It's a stupid statement to even make because it's out of proportion.

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

In your opinion, it seems to be that Muslim people are just an inately hateful criminal bunch. That's such black and white thinking...You're easily lead and manipulated, I would say.

I've tried to tell you that the Muslims take their religon and the teachings litterally... In fact they HAVE TO take the Koran litterally in order to be "true Muslims". So most do. So, since those teachings are 1300 years old and have to be taken litterelly, what do you think the result is? I'm not saying that they are evil people... I'm just saying they are ignorant, and 80% savages because of it. I think if you don't understand this or can't comprehend it, you are actually the one who is easily manipulated. :)

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/12/2004 02:26:30 AM · #219

Originally posted by ChrisW123:

Fundamentalist Christians take as "Gospel" the Bible, which pre-dates the Koran by some 700-2000 years ... so where does that leave all those Christians who must take literally the Inspired Word of God as written in the Bible -- some 3000 years out of step with the times?

Sometime you should look up the history of Western Science, and know that the Arabs essentially "saved" science during the Dark Ages of Europe.

Check out the Spanish Inquisition sometime too; and how about that "fourteen hundred and ninety-two, when Columbus sailed the ocean blue," and Ferdinand and Isabella expelled all the Jews from Spain ... that's some real Christian charity there, all right.

As for "atrocities" committed by the USA, we have 50,000 civilians vaporized at Hiroshima; the installation of Gen. Pinochet, the "Saddam of the Southern Hemisphere;" throwing a few hundred thousand citizens of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps and confiscating all their property; the murder of Emmitt Till; the Gulf of Tonkin incident, itself but a modern echo of the Maine.

How about a few hundred years of legalized slavery ...

05/12/2004 02:50:06 AM · #220

Please find me any passage in the Koran that advocates violence.
Do you know any Muslims personally?
Savages?...the Arab culture gave us mathematics, navigation, tapestries, beautiful literature...Need I go on? You are living in a cave. Pre or post 9/11, you still have no clue Chris.

Originally posted by ChrisW123: