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05/09/2004 02:01:33 AM · #76 |
Of course it's an econimic model, but that model is what leads to political/governmental control of the people, since the government tells YOU want you can and cannot buy, they are in complete control. And from this, they also tell YOU what you can and cannot think/speak. It's proven that communism doesn't work. It's also proven that governments of communist countries have, BY FAR, oppressed and murdered more of their own people in larger numbers then any other type of government in history, besides possibly anchient Monarchy's. Not sure, I'm no historical expert, but I'm making an educated guess. ;)
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05/09/2004 03:47:35 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by orussell:
And Bush probably wouldn't even be apologizing if it was not for an upcoming election ... |
Precisely my point ... and why I consider him unfit to fill the role of "leader of the free world." |
haha...why didn't he apologize before when all the democrats wanted him to for 'bringing the country to war under false pretenses'? he's unfit to lead the free world because he didn't apologize for what you wanted him to?
also, i am shocked by the photos and do think rumsfeld's time is up and should be sacked for this. this has been going on for months and for some reason the people weren't taken out of command until now...that's poor.
also, when people talk about torture vs. hazing, i would definitely say this is torture and small fries compared to what else is supposedly going to come to light about the soldiers at that one prison. it's sickening and they should all be courtmarshalled.
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05/09/2004 07:38:09 AM · #78 |
| No Russell. I served in the army during the vietnam war. I volunteered. SO if I am sitting here bitching, which I wasn't, I think I come upon my views from first hand experience. I'm not some young punk mouthing off without acutually having experienced, first hand, the crap I'm spewing out. Are you waiting to be drafted? What's some surgery that you had 6 years ago to do with saving your country today? |
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05/09/2004 09:12:49 AM · #79 |
What? People still think that Iraq has something to do with 9/11?
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05/09/2004 11:13:54 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by jonr:
What? People still think that Iraq has something to do with 9/11? |
no, i think everyone should be clear on that by now.. |
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05/09/2004 12:21:33 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
It's also proven that governments of communist countries have, BY FAR, oppressed and murdered more of their own people in larger numbers then any other type of government in history, besides possibly anchient Monarchy's. Not sure, I'm no historical expert, but I'm making an educated guess. ;) |
Being anti-communist was a large part of what got Hitler elected. It was also the rationale for the US helping to keep alive "anti-communist" regimes in Guatamala and El Salvador, overthrowing the democratically-elected government of Chile, and selling arms to the Iranians so we'd have secret funds to pay the Nicaraguan Contras to terrorize the countryside. I don't think the recent genocides in Rwanda or Bosnia-Herzogovina were communist purges either.
Although Stalin's abuses are pretty common knowledge now, let's not forget that those same Russions lost nearly 20 million war dead fighting the Nazis (who had double-crossed them).
I think the evidence is pretty clear that once you get ANY group with money, power and priviledge, they will structure the government and laws to perpetuate benefit for themselves to the detriment of "ordinary" citizens.
Humans are essentially selfish creatures. To get them to make do with less so that someone else can have more is unnatural, and so we require a elaborate mythologies and philosophical rationales -- and the threat of earthly incarceration and/or eternal damnation -- to get people to behave "like human beings." But isn't that the ultimate purpose of society: to rise above the law of the jungle where the strong eat their fill and the weak are banished from the tribe; to rule by law and justice rather than brute strength; to amalgamate our efforts and through cooperation achieve greater than any of us could alone and then to share in the benefits.
Capitalism is, at its very core, the antithetical to any of those qualities we consider to differentiate us from the "lower" animals ... it is a system which relies on appealing to our base natures and our inherent greed ... which invites "cheating" and exploitation and cares nothing for the future of the human race, but only immediate gratification with the spoils of conqu net profit.
I'm not arguing in favor of State Communism as an alternative ... but I don''t think the corporate oligarchism we're practicing in the US currently is significantly better (or different) as an economic system.
Message edited by author 2004-05-09 12:22:14. |
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05/09/2004 12:24:07 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by jonr:
What? People still think that Iraq has something to do with 9/11? |
Hi, i have been following this thread for the last week or so.
Anyway, I COULDNT AGREE MORE WITH THIS STATEMENT, everybody seems to be terrorists these days, sounds more like an excuse for attacking people. |
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05/09/2004 12:35:28 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by pcody:
No Russell. I served in the army during the vietnam war. I volunteered. SO if I am sitting here bitching, which I wasn't, I think I come upon my views from first hand experience. I'm not some young punk mouthing off without acutually having experienced, first hand, the crap I'm spewing out. Are you waiting to be drafted? What's some surgery that you had 6 years ago to do with saving your country today? |
I couldn't agree more! |
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05/09/2004 12:51:26 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by jonr:
What? People still think that Iraq has something to do with 9/11? |
No, but giving cash rewards to the families of suicide bombers in Palestine sure does a lot to support terrorism. That combined with Saddam's Hitler style genocide in his own country makes him a prime target for the war on terror. Oh, and if your wondering why Bush was so sure he had WMD's, well that's because he knows which ones we sold him back in the 80's. Has the world learned nothing form the past? You have to eliminate assholes like Saddam or Pol Pot BEFORE they have the leverage of a Hitler or Kim Jong Il. |
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05/09/2004 12:58:04 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by Rooster:
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by Rooster:
This thread is a joke. I can;t beleive this crap!
This thread is good reason to ban all non-fotog discussions.
I am thoroughly disgusted! |
This coming from someone that has a picture of Che Guevara for her profile photo. Was Che Guevara a Photographer in his spare time or is this a "non-fotog" political statement? Seems a bit hypocritical don't you think? |
Draw references to whatever you like. My profile picture represents me & what inspires me and has nothing to do with my feelings about the topic of this thread. I'm not shoving Che down anyone's throat (not impying that you are doing so thru this thread either). I'm not creating a thread about Che.
The pic is not a political statement but rather a personal staement. I dont see the hypocracy in that.
You know DPC is an International site. If someone from aboard begun a thread about some Americans being treated the same way I doubt anyone would consier it hazing & not torture. Where's the humanity here? |
If your thoroughly disgusted at this crap and think this thread is a good reason to ban all "non-fotog" discussions, Why do you keep coming back to contribute? Yet, another hypocritical move by the Rooster?
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05/09/2004 01:15:25 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Rooster:
no, i dont. i think this repsonse has more to do with some other thoughts & feelings you may have about me rather than my post here. |
Yeah, that fact that you support communism, is 180 degrees opposite of American values. So since I know this, I'm going to pay close attention to your posts and wonder about the motivation you have behind them. And in your case, a statement like "why is anti-war considered anti-american..?", while on the outside is perfectly fine and a good point, coming from you has less of a feeling of sincerity and more of a feeling of pushing your agenda. So I will point that out. |
You flatter yourself & what you think you know about me, which is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! But if it makes you feel more important & makes you feel as if you know something than by all means, continue on with your bad self!
Message edited by author 2004-05-09 13:29:39.
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05/09/2004 01:17:38 PM · #87 |
| Which is more extreme, and more threatening to our culture, Che or Rush? |
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05/09/2004 01:20:11 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Rooster:
no, i dont. i think this repsonse has more to do with some other thoughts & feelings you may have about me rather than my post here. |
Yeah, that fact that you support communism, is 180 degrees opposite of American values. So since I know this, I'm going to pay close attention to your posts and wonder about the motivation you have behind them. And in your case, a statement like "why is anti-war considered anti-american..?", while on the outside is perfectly fine and a good point, coming from you has less of a feeling of sincerity and more of a feeling of pushing your agenda. So I will point that out. |
Why is anti-war considered anti-American?
-Terry
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05/09/2004 01:28:13 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by Rooster:
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by Rooster:
This thread is a joke. I can;t beleive this crap!
This thread is good reason to ban all non-fotog discussions.
I am thoroughly disgusted! |
This coming from someone that has a picture of Che Guevara for her profile photo. Was Che Guevara a Photographer in his spare time or is this a "non-fotog" political statement? Seems a bit hypocritical don't you think? |
Draw references to whatever you like. My profile picture represents me & what inspires me and has nothing to do with my feelings about the topic of this thread. I'm not shoving Che down anyone's throat (not impying that you are doing so thru this thread either). I'm not creating a thread about Che.
The pic is not a political statement but rather a personal staement. I dont see the hypocracy in that.
You know DPC is an International site. If someone from aboard begun a thread about some Americans being treated the same way I doubt anyone would consier it hazing & not torture. Where's the humanity here? |
If your thoroughly disgusted at this crap and think this thread is a good reason to ban all "non-fotog" discussions, Why do you keep coming back to contribute? Yet, another hypocritical move by the Rooster? |
I keep coming back to give you someone to call a hypocrite. Name calling is FUN!
Usually when peopl are attacked, personally, for things on their PERSONAL profile, as opposed to what might have been poted on a thread, they tend to want to defend themselves. Kinda the same reason you were so fast to defend this thread when I posted.
So, if calling me a hypocite somehow makes you feel better or superior, well, enjoy yourself bc it is whooly inconsequential to me.
If CHE was not on my profile, what would the agrument be? You're a hypocrite bc you like Bob Marley?
Message edited by author 2004-05-09 13:30:15.
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05/09/2004 02:19:09 PM · #90 |
I will never forget an experience from over 20 years ago.
In November of 1979 Iranian militants took stormed and gained control of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran. Several dozen (70+) American hostages were taken and held captive for over one year (444 days).
During the time they were being held I attended a few rallies that were designed to show support for the hostages. One such rally was put together by Calif. State Sen. Paul Carpenter and held at the Los Angeles Coliseum. The rally was to be video taped and delivered to Tehran.
It was a very moving experience. There were numerous efigies of the Ayatollah Khomeini, hung by the neck and in flames. The crowd cheered each time one was ignited. Placards urging our government to nuke Iran were abound. About half way thru the rally I noticed something that I wouldn't be able to forget. The coliseum was full of people demanding a war with Iran. Yet I was totally surrounded by either people far too old to fight, a very large number of people that were visibly either intoxicated or smoking pot, and a good many were too overweight to be able to fight in a war.
As I surveyed the crowd the message that came thru was that I was immensed in a crowd of tens of thousands of people demanding a war that they could not and would not participate.
I have often heard of the comparisons between anti-war and anti-American. From my own experience I have seen anti-war demonstrators the were clearly anti-American. But for those of the view that anti-war is anti-American.... I have to ask what do you call that group of people I met at the Coliseum?
(edit spelling)
Message edited by author 2004-05-09 14:20:30. |
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05/09/2004 02:19:23 PM · #91 |
I'm not sure you can really compare the torture that is being done by the Americans on Iraqi prisoners with the 4 contracted military personnel that were brutally murdered last month. The former is systematic military policy, and not isolated incidents perpertrated by low level GI's, and the latter street mob rule gone out of control. Why do I say "systematic?"...The US has a long and sordid history of training, aligning themselves with and funding torturers. Most recently in Afghanistan and the many who've been classified by the US gov't as "enemy combatants" in Guantanamo Bay (and many not charged with any kinds of crimes). Historically, the US gov't backed the Shah of Iran, and gave him refuge here when he was thrown out (not once, but twice); backed Papa and Baby Doc in Haiti; trained thousands in terror at the School of the Americas (now called the Western Hemispheric Institute for Security Cooperation); helped install and back Pinochet in Chile (overthrowing the democratically elected gov't of Allende); and closer to home you have the California Youth Authority and the Texas prisons that has been pointed out in this thread earlier. And there are many other examples.
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by Riggs:
And what bugs me, is there is more outrage over this then there was seeing US soldiers hung dead over bridges and parading them through the streets. |
I agree. Although this guy was indeed humiliated and degraded, he is still alive and well. Which is more then you can say about this guy or this guy. Yet, which incident gets the most airplay? You can't tell me playing naked twister is on the same level as being burned alive and strung up like a piñata. |
Message edited by author 2004-05-09 15:12:07. |
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05/09/2004 03:20:13 PM · #92 |
I don't know how much this is an isolated incident or it happens often, maybe us guys that watch from home will never know, but to me it looks more like someone took out these pictures just for the elections going on there in US. As someone who watches these things for verry far, I sure enjoyed more the Monica Lewinski scandal. That whas funny, this is not.
And for the people here stating "they did it to our people we do it to them it's ok" that's true but excuse me if then me as a 3'rd party I will be confused about who's the good guys and who's the bad guys issue. Yes sadly they are so cruel and barbarian, they brutally tortured and burned those poor guys alive, but if you do that too then you are same way barbarian as they are. If America the bigest and strongest democracy on this planet overlooks the Geneva convenctions and it's own laws, and lets something like this to happen, then excuse me if I'm afraid to live on this planet anymore. Again I'm sure this is just an Isolated incident, and those will be punished. Atleast I hope so. |
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05/09/2004 04:23:12 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Again I'm sure this is just an Isolated incident, and those will be punished. Atleast I hope so. |
Even Donald Rumsfeld says that, if you're upset with this, just wait until you see the pictures and videos which haven't made it into the public eye yet ... |
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05/09/2004 04:38:58 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Again I'm sure this is just an Isolated incident, and those will be punished. Atleast I hope so. |
Even Donald Rumsfeld says that, if you're upset with this, just wait until you see the pictures and videos which haven't made it into the public eye yet ... |
Yup, they are worse. And sadly I think that will make you happy. |
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05/09/2004 04:58:34 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Again I'm sure this is just an Isolated incident, and those will be punished. Atleast I hope so. |
Even Donald Rumsfeld says that, if you're upset with this, just wait until you see the pictures and videos which haven't made it into the public eye yet ... |
Yup, they are worse. And sadly I think that will make you happy. |
Not at all ... I'd far prefer to try and eliminate the conditions which lead to criminality, and take no delight in punishing those perpetrators who are caught. I suppose there's always some degree of satisfaction when liars and hypocrites are finally exposed, but I really don't think "happy" conveys the proper emotion. |
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05/09/2004 05:18:53 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Riggs:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by frumoaznicul:
Again I'm sure this is just an Isolated incident, and those will be punished. Atleast I hope so. |
Even Donald Rumsfeld says that, if you're upset with this, just wait until you see the pictures and videos which haven't made it into the public eye yet ... |
Yup, they are worse. And sadly I think that will make you happy. |
Not at all ... I'd far prefer to try and eliminate the conditions which lead to criminality, and take no delight in punishing those perpetrators who are caught. I suppose there's always some degree of satisfaction when liars and hypocrites are finally exposed, but I really don't think "happy" conveys the proper emotion. |
All Politicians are liars and hyocrites. On both sides.
Note to self. Stay away from political debate here and remember why you are here. Great photography.
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05/09/2004 05:29:35 PM · #97 |
| I remember, I think it whas last year or the year before, there whas this big issue around here, about european countries not to keep US war criminals and give them to the human rights court in Haga. Some agreed and said ok America is the strongest democracy we should trust them that they would punish theyr criminals same way Haga would do they even still have death penalties so maybe whorse. Others said, who is America to be treated differently? If war criminals from all over the world are brought there, why should Americans be different? I don't even know what whas the final decision on that, some countries signed it others not, mine did. I sure won't enjoy anyone being punished and the world "happy" can't be associated with anything about this, but criminals are criminals and what those soldiers did are called crimes against humanity. I think USA has a chance now tho proove to those who signed for US war criminals to be judged in USA that they were right to do that. Criminals are criminals weather they are US soldiers or even God's angels, they should be punished. Else excuse me if I say let Saddam Hussein loose and stop chasing Bin Laden around, and let's work on "eliminating the conditions which lead to criminality". |
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05/09/2004 10:25:24 PM · #98 |
| If you check out tonight's 60 Minutes you'll hear about the antics of our, or at least the Bush family's, close friends, the Saudis. |
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05/09/2004 10:29:46 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you check out tonight's 60 Minutes you'll hear about the antics of our, or at least the Bush family's, close friends, the Saudis. |
Who's book are they selling this week? |
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05/09/2004 10:58:46 PM · #100 |
I haven't really followed this thread much since friday, but I wanted to post something (I didn't write it, but I like it).
-----------------------------------------
Interesting!!
There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq during the month of January and each one is tragic, BUT in the fair city of Detroit (Michigan) alone there were 35 murders that same month.
Worst president in history???????
Liberals claim President Bush shouldn't have started this war. They complain about his prosecution of it. One liberal recently claimed Bush was the worst president in U.S. history.
Let's clear up one point: We didn't start the war on terror. Try to remember, it was started by terrorists BEFORE 9/11. Let's look at the "worst" president and mismanagement claims.
FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year.
Truman finished that war and started one in Korea, North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost, an average of 18,333 per year.
John F. Kennedy started the Vietnam conflict in 1962. Vietnam never attacked us.
Johnson turned Vietnam into a quagmire. From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost, an average of 5,800 per year.
Clinton went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent, Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.
In the two years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Lybia, Iran and North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. We lost 600 soldiers, an average of 300 a year. Bush did all this abroad while not allowing another terrorist attack at home.
Worst president in history? Come on!
The Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking, but...
It took less time to take Iraq than it took Janet Reno to take the Branch Davidian compound. That was a 51 day operation.
We've been looking for evidence of chemical weapons in Iraq for less time than it took Hillary Clinton to find the Rose Law Firm billing records.
It took less time for the 3rd Infantry Division and the Marines to destroy the Medina Republican Guard than it took Teddy Kennedy to call the police after his Oldsmobile sank at Chappaquiddick.
It took less time to take Iraq than it took to count the votes in Florida!!!!
Our military and our president are GREAT!!!!! I'm voting for Bush
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Message edited by author 2004-05-09 23:00:59.
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