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05/08/2004 01:20:26 PM · #51 |
From today's New York Times:
Physical and sexual abuse of prisoners, similar to what has been uncovered in Iraq, takes place in American prisons with little public knowledge or concern, according to corrections officials, inmates and human rights advocates.
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The corrections experts say that some of the worst abuses have occurred in Texas, whose prisons were under a federal consent decree during much of the time President Bush was governor because of crowding and violence by guards against inmates. Judge William Wayne Justice of Federal District Court imposed the decree after finding that guards were allowing inmate gang leaders to buy and sell other inmates as slaves for sex.
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 13:20:49. |
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05/08/2004 07:52:07 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Russell2566:
From the talk of the dems you'd think we were actualy torturing the prisoners... |
Originally posted by orussell:
Even hazing is considered "abhorant" and "nauseating" in this age of political correctness. |
The evolving case of the prison abuses is a far more serious issue than partisan politics or political correctness. The image of the US in the eyes of the rest of the world, especially the Middle East, has been setback decades. We must work hard to regain our claim to the "moral high ground". We must not let our nation be dragged down to the level of those we condemn as terrorists and tyrants. If we do then they have won.
I especially resent the attempts to make the lowest level soldiers the scapegoats in something the first investigation called "systemic".
We are just seeing the beginning of the story. This should not be trivialized. |
The image of the U.S. was damaged as soon as we sent troops over there and invaded their country. |
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05/08/2004 07:58:55 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by thelsel:
Originally posted by Rooster:
This thread is a joke. I can;t beleive this crap!
This thread is good reason to ban all non-fotog discussions.
I am thoroughly disgusted! |
This coming from someone that has a picture of Che Guevara for her profile photo. Was Che Guevara a Photographer in his spare time or is this a "non-fotog" political statement? Seems a bit hypocritical don't you think? |
Draw references to whatever you like. My profile picture represents me & what inspires me and has nothing to do with my feelings about the topic of this thread. I'm not shoving Che down anyone's throat (not impying that you are doing so thru this thread either). I'm not creating a thread about Che.
The pic is not a political statement but rather a personal staement. I dont see the hypocracy in that.
You know DPC is an International site. If someone from aboard begun a thread about some Americans being treated the same way I doubt anyone would consier it hazing & not torture. Where's the humanity here?
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 20:44:02.
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05/08/2004 08:36:43 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by sonnyh:
The image of the U.S. was damaged as soon as we sent troops over there and invaded their country. |
I'd MUCH prefer what ever image was drawn about us after we went into Afganistan and then Iraq versus the one that was drawn about us while Clinton was in office.
People like Osama Bin Laden and Saddam thought of us as weak and pathetic and to quote Osama, "Nothing but a paper dragon". He said that in response to the COMPLETE NONE ACTION/REACTION by President Clinton.
Thank god we have soldiers with strong hearts and iron will to protect those with weak hearts and minds!!!
And remember, ALL the planning, all the flight training, all the money transfers and almost ALL terrorist attacks against US interests took place under the watch of Clinton... But because he is a Dem and a good public speaker, I guess we should just give him a free pass.
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 20:46:19.
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05/08/2004 09:59:32 PM · #55 |
| Say Russell, since you're so into this, can I ask why you are not over there fighting. Your profile says you're 23. A prime age for serving your country. I'm sure you'd have a wonderful time. And I'd sure feel safer with you being over there protecting all us Americans from all those terrorists. |
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05/08/2004 11:05:13 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by pcody:
Say Russell, since you're so into this, can I ask why you are not over there fighting. Your profile says you're 23. A prime age for serving your country. I'm sure you'd have a wonderful time. And I'd sure feel safer with you being over there protecting all us Americans from all those terrorists. |
I was signed up to go into the MARINES at 17, I was to dept. out about 2 weeks after graduation.
Unfortunetly after 2 knee surgeries and complications from a fall soon after my first surgery. I was unable to fullfill my duties and I never became a MARINE. My MOS was infrantry.
If President Bush came on the TV tonight and said we were in desperate need of troops I would sign up tomorrow, DESPITE the fact that I'm building a new house and getting married this fall... I'm sure you would just sit there and bitch!
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 23:06:06.
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05/08/2004 11:16:43 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
I was signed up to go into the MARINES at 17, I was to dept. out about 2 weeks after graduation. |
What does it say about a country willing to train its young men to kill and die before they're considered old/mature/responsible enough to drink, smoke, vote, buy a car, or generally sign any other kind of contract? |
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05/08/2004 11:26:45 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Russell2566:
I was signed up to go into the MARINES at 17, I was to dept. out about 2 weeks after graduation. |
What does it say about a country willing to train its young men to kill and die before they're considered old/mature/responsible enough to drink, smoke, vote, buy a car, or generally sign any other kind of contract? |
I would say whats your point and why do you even bother bringing it up? Are you just scratching for bad shit to say because I didn't give an answer you were hoping for?
I don't think 99% of the kids I went to HS with were mature enough to drink and it's a good thing they were not legally able to. I whent to 6 funerals while I was in HS. 5 for car accidents involving alcohol & drugs and the 6th was a suicide involving the same.
Military service builds character, pride and maturity. Our current overly liberal driven public schools do none of these.
Plus the age bracket is best suited for the job...
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 23:27:30.
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05/08/2004 11:35:18 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
What does it say about a country willing to train its young men to kill and die before they're considered old/mature/responsible enough to drink, smoke, vote, buy a car, or generally sign any other kind of contract? |
How about we flip this!
What does it say about our soldiers who are willing to risk their lives for YOUR freedom and mine, before their own society recognizes them as full adults? I would say it makes them brave, determined or just plain old good people.
But I'm sure you were hoping for another American Bashing asnwer so I apologize for getting this wrong!
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05/08/2004 11:46:08 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
How about we flip this!
What does it say about our soldiers who are willing to risk their lives for YOUR freedom and mine, before their own society recognizes them as full adults? I would say it makes them brave, determined or just plain old good people.
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The two are not mutually exclusive. Nothing GeneralE said indicated any type of lack of respect for those who voluntarily put their lives on the line to defend our freedon and our way of life.
Now, how about cooling off a little and showing a little more respect for those who have opinions that differ from your own?
Thanks,
Terry
Message edited by author 2004-05-08 23:46:33.
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05/08/2004 11:51:18 PM · #61 |
why is anti-war considered america-bashing & anti-american?
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05/08/2004 11:56:39 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Rooster:
why is anti-war considered america-bashing & anti-american? |
I wouldn't say it is, but in general I would feel pretty safe saying that most times when I hear one I hear the other.
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05/08/2004 11:59:30 PM · #63 |
That may be what you are hearing... but in many to most cases I doubt that's what the speaker is saying.
-Terry
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05/09/2004 12:07:23 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by Rooster:
why is anti-war considered america-bashing & anti-american? |
I don't think anti-war rethoric is anti-American, but having a picture in your profile of a Communist revolutionary IS pretty anti-American, don't you think? :p
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05/09/2004 12:16:25 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Rooster:
why is anti-war considered america-bashing & anti-american? |
I don't think anti-war rethoric is anti-American, but having a picture in your profile of a Communist revolutionary IS pretty anti-American, don't you think? :p |
no, i dont. i think this repsonse has more to do with some other thoughts & feelings you may have about me rather than my post here. Regardless, I switch between shots of bob marley & che. Not bc they express anti-amercanism, as you interpret, but bc of my own personal beliefs.
My statement has nothng to do with me but rather the ideas shared here on this thread. My interpretation of it seems as if that is what is being said.
Is it possible for anyone to respond without attacking people personally?
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05/09/2004 12:19:03 AM · #66 |
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05/09/2004 12:49:14 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by Rooster:
no, i dont. i think this repsonse has more to do with some other thoughts & feelings you may have about me rather than my post here. |
Yeah, that fact that you support communism, is 180 degrees opposite of American values. So since I know this, I'm going to pay close attention to your posts and wonder about the motivation you have behind them. And in your case, a statement like "why is anti-war considered anti-american..?", while on the outside is perfectly fine and a good point, coming from you has less of a feeling of sincerity and more of a feeling of pushing your agenda. So I will point that out.
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05/09/2004 12:53:19 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
I don't think 99% of the kids I went to HS with were mature enough to drink and it's a good thing they were not legally able to. I whent to 6 funerals while I was in HS. 5 for car accidents involving alcohol & drugs and the 6th was a suicide involving the same.
Military service builds character, pride and maturity. Our current overly liberal driven public schools do none of these. |
That sounds like a high school experience which would cause one to "grow up" quickly indeed.
My criticism was not necessarily of the 17 YO who may well be mature enough to decide to be a Marine, but of the hypocrisy involved in a government willing to exploit you to the extent of exacting the ultimate sacrifice, without even honoring you with the right to vote for the person who sends you off to die.
If the schools were funded the way the military is, you'd have far fewer of the problems you attribute to "liberalism," but which are primarily due to underpaid and under trained teachers forced to work in overcrowded, undersupplied, and undermaintained classrooms.
They say liberals always "want to solve problems by throwing money at it" ... it seems to me conservatives follow exactly the same plan of action, only it's in the form of tax cutsfor the wealthy and a bloated military budget rife with fraud and overspending, instead using it for schoolbooks and Food Stamps.
It's well-documented that every dollar spent on pre-school for poor kids returns about seven dollars in reduced cost to society, when that kid doesn't need Special Ed classes, go on wealfare, or end up in prison. Yet our "no child left behind" President starves preschool programs in the US while asking for ANOTHER $25 BILLION for Iraq ... they say actions speak louder than words, and Mr. Bush's actions are at about 187 decibels and rising ... |
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05/09/2004 01:05:17 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by Rooster:
no, i dont. i think this repsonse has more to do with some other thoughts & feelings you may have about me rather than my post here. |
Yeah, that fact that you support communism, is 180 degrees opposite of American values. |
Communism is nowhere near 180 degrees opposed from American values, as the degree of corruption and concentration of power and priviledge among the Commissars will plainly attest ... as Barry Goldwater said to "oppose the USSR while supporting General Motors requires a theological position" as in "they are the children of darkness and we are the children of light" because there was no practical difference in their operation.
BTW: I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party, although I've been frequently informed that it is my right as a US citizen to be completely unobligated to tell you that ... I have a lot of problems with dictatorships of any ilk, whether by the "proletariat" or any other entity except maybe myself -- I guess if the whole world unanimously asked me to be dictator of the world I'd feel obliged to give it my best try ... fortunately this is an eventuality we can probably agree is both undesirable and extremely unlikely! |
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05/09/2004 01:13:55 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
My criticism was not necessarily of the 17 YO who may well be mature enough to decide to be a Marine, but of the hypocrisy involved in a government willing to exploit you to the extent of exacting the ultimate sacrifice, without even honoring you with the right to vote for the person who sends you off to die. |
Don't solders have to be 18 when they enter the armed services? In any case, our country does NOT EXPLIOT people for joining the service. They get free education, learn dicipline, and get to serve their country and protect it. I don't like blanket statements like this which make the military seem like a fraud.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If the schools were funded the way the military is, you'd have far fewer of the problems you attribute to "liberalism," but which are primarily due to underpaid and under trained teachers forced to work in overcrowded, undersupplied, and undermaintained classrooms. |
No. We have already tried the route of "throwing money" at schools in "under-privilaged" areas, and it DOESN'T HELP. The reason the extra money doesn't help in those areas is because of the social situation there: If the parents don't participate in the childs development, the child doesn't develop. If the parents in those areas do not speak English, they will not be able to communicate with the teachers and are far less likely to participate and therefore their children do not learn.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
...Yet our "no child left behind" President starves preschool programs in the US while asking for ANOTHER $25 BILLION for Iraq ... they say actions speak louder than words, and Mr. Bush's actions are at about 187 decibels and rising ... |
We will leave Iraq soon. It is too expensive. I don't like the high expense of all of this either but we are trying to make a difference in the middle east and trying to install a democratic way of life there. It's for us, AND for them. The world needs some stability in it and hopefully this will be a first step.
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05/09/2004 01:30:31 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by Russell2566:
Clinton... But because he is a Dem and a good public speaker, I guess we should just give him a free pass. |
We are six months away from the next election. You'd think the Bush supporters would stop trying to blame every thing on Clinton. Seems to me that Bush, Rummy, Wolfowitz, et al are the ones looking for a free pass on the Iraq mess, while letting some sargeants and privates catch the blame for the prison abuses scandal.
Russell2566-- your extreme views, your intolerance for any other view, your abusive attitude, the constant name calling and belittling of anyone who doesn't buy your idiotic philosophy-- it all adds up to this-- you have no credibility. You do not think. You just parrot the distortions, lies, and hateful poison of the extremists on the far right. Why don't you peddle that clap-trap somewhere else and let this site, and these forums, be about photography?
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05/09/2004 01:31:27 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If the schools were funded the way the military is, you'd have far fewer of the problems you attribute to "liberalism," but which are primarily due to underpaid and under trained teachers forced to work in overcrowded, undersupplied, and undermaintained classrooms. |
No. We have already tried the route of "throwing money" at schools in "under-privilaged" areas, and it DOESN'T HELP. The reason the extra money doesn't help in those areas is because of the social situation there: If the parents don't participate in the childs development, the child doesn't develop. If the parents in those areas do not speak English, they will not be able to communicate with the teachers and are far less likely to participate and therefore their children do not learn. |
In California, our schools went from top-five in the nation to bottom-five shortly after passage of Proposition 13 in 1978, which gave a massive property tax break primarily to corporate and business entities, and which significantly cut funding for education, health/mental health care, welfare, and all those other little niceties which people used to be able to use so they might have time to spend helping their kid with their schoolwork, instead of working two-and-a-half jobs at minimum wage so they can pay for both rent and food.
I agree that community and parent participation are vital to the success of schools, but I invite you to come out here to the Bay Area; perhaps I can personally pay you the Federal Minimum Wage for a month and see what kind of lifestyle you can eke out and still have time to help my kid with his homework ... it might be worth it if I can take pictures and document it.
This is supposed to be a land of equal opportunity, but can you honestly say that all of our kids are given an equal chance?
You might want to check out Barbara Ehrenreich's book Nickel and Dimed for a first-hand account of life in the American underclass. |
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05/09/2004 01:33:09 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
...while letting some sargeants and privates catch the blame for the prison abuses scandal. |
I notice the only person actually charged so far is ... a woman. |
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05/09/2004 01:33:46 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Communism is nowhere near 180 degrees opposed from American values, as the degree of corruption and concentration of power and priviledge among the Commissars will plainly attest ... |
General, of course communism is opposed to capialism. I don't want to hear about Microsoft, Halla-Burton, or General Motors.... If you think that MS is too powerfull, then complain about it. If you don't like like a GM car, then don't buy it. The difference here in the US is, if you don't like a company, gov policy, or think that GM is too powerfull, then complain about it, don't buy the product, or explain why you don't think people should buy it in an open society. However, I don't recommend you try this in a communist country, because I doubt you would get very far complaining about the "Havana Motor Works"... In fact all it would get you is a bullet in your butt for the effort. So THAT is the diff between a communist country and a free capitalist country.
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05/09/2004 01:39:37 AM · #75 |
Communism is an economic model, which I think you (and almost everyone) are confusing with the totalitarian and repressive political bureaucracies so many of the communist states seemed to adopt. I don't particularly support the communist economic model either; I just don't want its economic shortcomings to be confused with those of a political system adopted by a wide range of contries of varying economic practices.
Actually, the communist economic model is perhaps most closely aligned with those esposed by Jesus, but which, like so many of His teachings, is largely ignored except for Sunday mornings, when we diligently and faithfully pray our team wins the overtime coin toss ... which reminds me: please examine the NFL's "revenue-sharing agreement" and then come back and talk about communism vs. free enterprise ...
Message edited by author 2004-05-09 01:44:40. |
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