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03/21/2009 12:03:41 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by violinist123:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Shouldn't there be a level of acceptance to the terrific features and options that ARE available without always insisting that things be changed to suit one more person? |
Like suggestions get implemented anyways, come on. |
Yes, they do; go look at a DPC page from 2002 ....
Langdon mentioned in an announcement thread a while ago that he and Drew were discussing ideas for a substantial site overhaul, and I think he also mentioned that it was unlikely that small, incremental changes would be implimented in the meantime. And I know how my attitude would deteriorate if I started having folks demanding certain changes, and berating my performance if everything wasn't altered to their satisfaction by yesterday.
It's a reasonable suggestion. It's been voiced and noted several times. It's been thoroughly discussed. I myself have even offered up an example of how another site approaches the problem:
But, the system hasn't changed (yet). So, I say deal with the situation as it is -- merely continuing to foment discord in the forums seems (_)helpful (X) somewhat less than helpful. |
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03/21/2009 12:04:05 PM · #77 |
| I think I the "in depth" box once when I first started and had no idea what it was for. Haven't since then, I don't think. I usually have gone through the process (something like anger/denial/acceptance) by the time voting is done and am pretty sure I understand what's wrong with my photos as far as voting goes. But that's just me. |
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03/21/2009 12:12:15 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
#2 through #6 SHOULD be irrelevant to a photographer who is leaving comments. What I am saying here is that those are issues you should not worry about. Make your comment useful to YOURSELF as a photographer. YOU will benefit from what you write, especially if you take the time to write it properly. You many not have enough time to comment on as many as you would like in a given challenge, but you will learn more and learn how to analyze a photograph more thoroughly.
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See this is were I respectfully disagree with you impart.
I can learn from a photographers photograph by studding it, I don't have to write down what I see (even thought that does help), so my comments are direct toward the photographer not me. How will I know if I am benefiting from a comment I made if the photographer does not acknowledge the comment. It leaves me wondering if he or she even took the time to read it or did they? and if so, was I way off base.
Kind of like being in school, turning in a essay or report and the professor or teacher gives back your work without grade, comment, or even acknowledges it. You just stare a the paper wondering if your report had any merit.
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03/21/2009 12:16:08 PM · #79 |
I suggest implementing an automatic "positive response generator". For every comment that is left on an image, the commenter will receive an email with a random note of thanks for the comment.
Problem solved, and there is no worry that the photographers will miss or otherwise not implement some kind of self-controlled opt-in or opt-out mechanism to clutter up an already cluttered preferences page ;D
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 12:16:26. |
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03/21/2009 12:24:19 PM · #80 |
Looks like I got "yanko'd" one or twice...then this point fell off. Wouldn't this be the easiest solution?
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
People like the ones you're mentioning probably wouldn't take the time to check any boxes like that anyway. ... |
Agreed.
Originally posted by SDW:
... If the site had a check box the photographer could click that said they did not want to receive comments during voting ... |
This is the opposite of what's needed. As stated above, in many cases those that don't read/check helpful/acknowledge comments aren't likely to tic off a checkbox on their profile or when they submit a challenge entry.
Make it an opt-in item...photographers have to select a check box stating they DO want comments. |
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03/21/2009 12:39:15 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by SDW:
See this is were I respectfully disagree with you impart.
I can learn from a photographers photograph by studding it, I don't have to write down what I see (even thought that does help), so my comments are direct toward the photographer not me. How will I know if I am benefiting from a comment I made if the photographer does not acknowledge the comment. It leaves me wondering if he or she even took the time to read it or did they? and if so, was I way off base.
Kind of like being in school, turning in a essay or report and the professor or teacher gives back your work without grade, comment, or even acknowledges it. You just stare a the paper wondering if your report had any merit. |
I understand. I'm just happy with my papers when I turn them in, otherwise I wouldn't turn it in, or I would know in advance that it wasn't completed properly and wouldn't expect much out of it. I still try to make the best of the situation.
Do you think you would comment more or less if there was no 'helpful' check box? I guess it's the simple difference between how you and I look at our own work and what we expect to get out of it. When I took my extended break from DPChallenge, I used that time to teach myself a lot of things. First and foremost, I learned what it is I want out of my own photography. I learned what kind of photos I like and want to make. I learned what it takes to make those photos. I learned what other people think of them. Unfortunately for me, my personal interests in photography are not well-received in a public forum such as this. They don't have mass appeal. It took me some time to accept that. After having accepted it, I can now focus my personal efforts on doing what I want to do and what makes me happy. I spent a lot of time in your situation where I thought that trying to change the community would make me happier. I can tell you from personal experience that you will dig yourself in a pretty deep hole and you won't be happy. I know this information may be somewhat irrelevant, but then again, it's not. The community itself will make the members happy or it will abandon them. The larger the community, the softer the individual voice.
Don't let yourself get too worked up over the issue of what others think of your efforts. If the efforts are self-satisfying, you will be the winner no matter what else happens.
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03/21/2009 12:44:20 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Looks like I got "yanko'd" one or twice...then this point fell off. Wouldn't this be the easiest solution?
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
People like the ones you're mentioning probably wouldn't take the time to check any boxes like that anyway. ... |
Agreed.
Originally posted by SDW:
... If the site had a check box the photographer could click that said they did not want to receive comments during voting ... |
This is the opposite of what's needed. As stated above, in many cases those that don't read/check helpful/acknowledge comments aren't likely to tic off a checkbox on their profile or when they submit a challenge entry.
Make it an opt-in item...photographers have to select a check box stating they DO want comments. |
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No. Opt-IN situations just lead to more problems. Think of the newly registered people that wouldn't know about it, or the casual users that don't really follow forums, or the people that simply don't read enough. They could go challenge after challenge wondering why the heck they aren't getting any comments, and the threads started about it would be off the charts. Opt-ins are never a good idea, really.
*EDIT* just wanted to add that it's especially troublesome to even consider an idea like this when there's no real evidence that there's a true problem in the first place.
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 12:55:21. |
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03/21/2009 12:45:09 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by SDW:
Kind of like being in school, turning in a essay or report and the professor or teacher gives back your work without grade, comment, or even acknowledges it. You just stare a the paper wondering if your report had any merit. |
I say it's more like being a reporter -- you write/publish your article with no control over who reads it or what they think of it.
What are you going to do when people check the "I Want Comments" box and then don't mark your wonderful comment as helpful? How will you know whether they didn't read it, didn't appreciate it, or what, unless you confront them in the photo's thread or by PM?
"Hey you jerk, you said you want comments -- why haven't you marked my wonderful review of your photo of "X" as helpful?!"
Is that really where we want the site to head?
You know what? No one has a real objection to your suggestion. But hearing about it over and over again isn't (shouldn't) make it happen any faster ... |
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03/21/2009 01:11:24 PM · #84 |
Like most of us, I get great comments, once in a blue moon. I get sadly ignorant ones too, prejudiced stuff that shows no interest in the facts of the image at hand. Then there are kind, well-intended ones. There's flattery along with sincere curiosity, the infamous one-liners, the cliches along with the spritzers, wow! And once every two years or so, I have the great pleasure to indulge in a considered critique, based on acute observation.
Frankly, I'd like to be able to acknowledge my debt to the best of them.
I'd like to be able indicate value.
And... to dismiss an offense.
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 13:11:44. |
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03/21/2009 01:12:37 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Looks like I got "yanko'd" one or twice...then this point fell off. Wouldn't this be the easiest solution?
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
People like the ones you're mentioning probably wouldn't take the time to check any boxes like that anyway. ... |
Agreed.
Originally posted by SDW:
... If the site had a check box the photographer could click that said they did not want to receive comments during voting ... |
This is the opposite of what's needed. As stated above, in many cases those that don't read/check helpful/acknowledge comments aren't likely to tic off a checkbox on their profile or when they submit a challenge entry.
Make it an opt-in item...photographers have to select a check box stating they DO want comments. |
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No. Opt-IN situations just lead to more problems. Think of the newly registered people that wouldn't know about it, or the casual users that don't really follow forums, or the people that simply don't read enough. ... |
It would be quite simple actually to add a checkbox on the challenge entry form (we already have to check a couple before a challenge entry can be submitted). |
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03/21/2009 01:35:39 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Like most of us, I get great comments, once in a blue moon. I get sadly ignorant ones too, prejudiced stuff that shows no interest in the facts of the image at hand. Then there are kind, well-intended ones. There's flattery along with sincere curiosity, the infamous one-liners, the cliches along with the spritzers, wow! And once every two years or so, I have the great pleasure to indulge in a considered critique, based on acute observation.
Frankly, I'd like to be able to acknowledge my debt to the best of them.
I'd like to be able indicate value.
And... to dismiss an offense. |
Note to self - avoid commenting on Zeuszen's work, says she of the kind, well-intended, flattering comments.... :-) |
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03/21/2009 01:55:50 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
It would be quite simple actually to add a checkbox on the challenge entry form (we already have to check a couple before a challenge entry can be submitted). |
I'm not too concerned about this oft-raised issue, but I don't think the photographer should have the option to choose. I may want to say something, even if the photographer doesn't want to hear it. The photographer can always protest an offensive comment.
Btw, I check nearly all comments helpful, because they tell me something, even if what they say is more about the person commenting than about the photo. Then it's helpful in my understanding of human nature. :-) I also notice the people who don't mark comments helpful, or who only mark praise. It just means I'm less likely to add a comment for them after a challenge, or let them know I like a photo in their portfolio.
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03/21/2009 02:28:52 PM · #88 |
 Bear_Music's suggestion to change the wording of the box to "comment read" makes the most sense. It is always the photographer's prerogative to acknowledge the comments, helpful or not, delighful or mistaken, in his or her own comment section, or by pm.
boyd2000's point - that a photo indicating that comments are not wanted would prejudice the voter (and might help identify the photographer) - is for me the most serious flaw in the OP's proposal. (Earlier I did post that this would create a stratification ...). |
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03/21/2009 02:32:22 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Looks like I got "yanko'd" one or twice...then this point fell off. Wouldn't this be the easiest solution?
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
People like the ones you're mentioning probably wouldn't take the time to check any boxes like that anyway. ... |
Agreed.
Originally posted by SDW:
... If the site had a check box the photographer could click that said they did not want to receive comments during voting ... |
This is the opposite of what's needed. As stated above, in many cases those that don't read/check helpful/acknowledge comments aren't likely to tic off a checkbox on their profile or when they submit a challenge entry.
Make it an opt-in item...photographers have to select a check box stating they DO want comments. |
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No. Opt-IN situations just lead to more problems. Think of the newly registered people that wouldn't know about it, or the casual users that don't really follow forums, or the people that simply don't read enough. ... |
It would be quite simple actually to add a checkbox on the challenge entry form (we already have to check a couple before a challenge entry can be submitted). |
I don't see how this is any different than having the check-box anywhere else. People would still miss checking it, or check it just because it's there. You can't make it so that you can't enter a shot without checking the box like the rules ones are. It still leads to more of a mess than warranted.
Besides, as someone has already brought up, letting people opt out of comments during a challenge? Ai yi yi. What road are we trying to go down here? |
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03/21/2009 04:39:28 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think a check box to use if you don't want comments would be almost as useless as the request for in depth critique check box. The in-depth critique check box used to get checked by well over 95% of challenge participants. That tells me that less than 5% of challenge participants would use a box to prevent comments on their image. |
I virtually never check that box........8>) |
Me either but I can assure you that MOST do :) |
Is that true? I have only checked that box once (in the January FS) and I'm still waiting for the CC comment. Maybe that would explain the backlog. |
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03/21/2009 04:50:25 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I guess it's the simple difference between how you and I look at our own work and what we expect to get out of it. When I took my extended break from DPChallenge, I used that time to teach myself a lot of things. First and foremost, I learned what it is I want out of my own photography. I learned what kind of photos I like and want to make. I learned what it takes to make those photos. I learned what other people think of them. Unfortunately for me, my personal interests in photography are not well-received in a public forum such as this. They don't have mass appeal. It took me some time to accept that. After having accepted it, I can now focus my personal efforts on doing what I want to do and what makes me happy. I spent a lot of time in your situation where I thought that trying to change the community would make me happier. I can tell you from personal experience that you will dig yourself in a pretty deep hole and you won't be happy. I know this information may be somewhat irrelevant, but then again, it's not. The community itself will make the members happy or it will abandon them. The larger the community, the softer the individual voice.
Don't let yourself get too worked up over the issue of what others think of your efforts. If the efforts are self-satisfying, you will be the winner no matter what else happens. |
I've noticed this of late myself. There seems to be a quiet and slow progression of this level of acceptance and understanding of the photographer within and with that understanding and acceptance comes a peace and comfortability that enables this community to become much more enjoyable.
It's funny because all you need to acquire this is the lead of quite a few of the people here......people who have already gotten there, and are quietly showing the rest of us how to do it if you can only see how they're doing it.
I can't put my finger on the exact process, but somewhere along the line after realizing that so much of what's said here involves utilizing your own ;potential and the way it's drawn out here, it kind of amazes me that more people don't find iot more often.
It's funny, John, but it is really apparent in the measured and reasoned way you've been discussing the ideas in this thread.....like you've really found this thing, which amuses me as I would have always thought from your work that you'd been there for years.
I've also noticed that it doesn't seem to have anything necessarily to do with commonly accepted work, yet the people I have noticed recently that seem to have "Gotten It" all have a very distinctive style, whether it be their photography, or their enjoyment of the art, and magic, of it.
Sorry to digress, I guess I'm just hoping that more people will find this sense of comfort and peace with their work, and the commensurate enjoyment that comes with it.
Message edited by author 2009-03-22 07:45:53.
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03/22/2009 12:22:40 AM · #92 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
How about if you go back and knock a point or two off on the photos that didn't mark your photos helpful right before rollover. |
I still see this as the easiest method.
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03/22/2009 12:48:10 AM · #93 |
Originally posted by neophyte:
Originally posted by neophyte:
How about if you go back and knock a point or two off on the photos that didn't mark your photos helpful right before rollover. |
I still see this as the easiest method. |
I think it is better not to devaluate a photograph for a flaw in its author's character, if then it is one.
Message edited by author 2009-03-22 00:48:35. |
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03/22/2009 12:55:13 AM · #94 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by neophyte:
Originally posted by neophyte:
How about if you go back and knock a point or two off on the photos that didn't mark your photos helpful right before rollover. |
I still see this as the easiest method. |
I think it is better not to devaluate a photograph for a flaw in its author's character, if then it is one. |
I agree. And even if you feel your little punishment is warranted, how do you know the photographer just hasn't got around to reading the comments yet? As in, has a life outside of DPC? It's not part of the challenge rules to have to stay glued to one's PC during the voting process. |
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03/22/2009 01:31:14 AM · #95 |
Originally posted by tnun:
Bear_Music's suggestion to change the wording of the box to "comment read" makes the most sense. It is always the photographer's prerogative to acknowledge the comments, helpful or not, delighful or mistaken, in his or her own comment section, or by pm.
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Hear hear.
Originally posted by tnun:
boyd2000's point - that a photo indicating that comments are not wanted would prejudice the voter (and might help identify the photographer) - is for me the most serious flaw in the OP's proposal. (Earlier I did post that this would create a stratification ...). |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I don't see how this is any different than having the check-box anywhere else. People would still miss checking it, or check it just because it's there. You can't make it so that you can't enter a shot without checking the box like the rules ones are. It still leads to more of a mess than warranted.
Besides, as someone has already brought up, letting people opt out of comments during a challenge? Ai yi yi. What road are we trying to go down here? |
Why does this make a scrap of difference? So some people will ignore it or miss it. So what? How does that make the idea any less valuable?
The fact that it is there would provide a benefit to some or many.
A simple green or red light icon would be inconspicuous and could be ignored unless someone was interested in commenting. I seriously doubt that this would have any effect on voting. And it's significantly different from actually 'opting out of comments'.
It could simply be that people check the red light to indicate that they are too busy to read comments or that they are comfortable with the level of their photography.
Perhaps it could be as simple as a question:
Are comments on this image of high importance to you? | |Yes | |No
Message edited by author 2009-03-22 01:33:25. |
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03/22/2009 07:54:34 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
It could simply be that people check the red light to indicate that they are too busy to read comments or that they are comfortable with the level of their photography.
Perhaps it could be as simple as a question:
Are comments on this image of high importance to you? | |Yes | |No |
It's probably time to put the whole comments thing to a poll because there's just too much strife over what is really an insignifigant thing.
Personally, I find it kind of rude and abrasive that just because someone thinks their opinion is so valuable that I am somehow obligated to respond to it.
I like comments, and I am usually courteous and check the box, but I really don't agree with all of them, and in most cases I don't appreciate being told how to "Fix" something I've done on purpose, or that some minute issue with my image is "Distracting".
So.....if I disagree with a comment, or in my eyes if it's wrong and I say so, do I get an apology or the right to have the comment stricken?
How ludicrous is this going to get?
IMNSHO.....leave a comment if you want; if you don't want, don't leave a comment; state your case and move on, do NOT presuppose that you are so important that your leaving a comment obligates anyone to so much as acknowledge it.
If you must engage in meaningful dialogue when leaving comments, then comment on people's images that are NOT in challenges, and send them a PM asking them if they are interested in a discussion.
The whole concept of berating a user or member for not playing the way YOU want them to is absurd.
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03/22/2009 11:30:49 AM · #97 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Originally posted by tnun:
Bear_Music's suggestion to change the wording of the box to "comment read" makes the most sense. It is always the photographer's prerogative to acknowledge the comments, helpful or not, delighful or mistaken, in his or her own comment section, or by pm.
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Hear hear.
Originally posted by tnun:
boyd2000's point - that a photo indicating that comments are not wanted would prejudice the voter (and might help identify the photographer) - is for me the most serious flaw in the OP's proposal. (Earlier I did post that this would create a stratification ...). |
Originally posted by K10DGuy:
I don't see how this is any different than having the check-box anywhere else. People would still miss checking it, or check it just because it's there. You can't make it so that you can't enter a shot without checking the box like the rules ones are. It still leads to more of a mess than warranted.
Besides, as someone has already brought up, letting people opt out of comments during a challenge? Ai yi yi. What road are we trying to go down here? |
Why does this make a scrap of difference? So some people will ignore it or miss it. So what? How does that make the idea any less valuable?
The fact that it is there would provide a benefit to some or many.
A simple green or red light icon would be inconspicuous and could be ignored unless someone was interested in commenting. I seriously doubt that this would have any effect on voting. And it's significantly different from actually 'opting out of comments'.
It could simply be that people check the red light to indicate that they are too busy to read comments or that they are comfortable with the level of their photography.
Perhaps it could be as simple as a question:
Are comments on this image of high importance to you? | |Yes | |No |
There is no benefit here, that I can see, other than assuaging someone's personal slight at not being acknowledged. No argument made yet has made me think any differently.
However, as GeneralE has said, whether the site puts something into place like this or not is up to the site, not us, so I'll back out now and let it fall as it does. |
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