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03/21/2009 09:12:45 AM · #51 |
It's nice to have your comment marked "helpful" but it's a meaningless statistic, really.
There are two generally held principles: first, that commenting actually helps the commenter more than the photographer, and second, that once the comment is left it could be helpful to *everyone* who sees it on the photo.
One shouldn't presume that a comment lives in limbo unless and until a particular photographer marks it helpful.
As an exercise, choose a photographer whose style you admire. Then go read their comments. You'd be surprised how much you can learn. |
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03/21/2009 09:30:46 AM · #52 |
I still don't think most people are getting my point. Please let me try again.
This is not about the check box being checked helpful or not.
This is not about someone not agreeing with my [anyones] comment.
This is not about wanting my comments checked helpful for statistical reasons.
Maybe it's me not being articulate enough for others to understand what I'm requesting.
This is about who want's comments and who don't. That simple!
So here is what I'm say;
1. There are people that wants comments and other that don't.
2. How can we focus our comments on the ones that do. Even if they don't find them helpful.
3. The commenter only has X time to comment and need not waste it on someone that don't care for comments.
4. A simple check box letting the PHOTOGRAPHER make a choice if he or she wants comments.
5. Doing this would help comments go to the users that want comments.
6. As it is now, when I or others comment on someone that does NOT wish for a comment that is one less comment for a photographer that does want a comment.
My question to all of you that think such a check box is bad, is Why?
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03/21/2009 09:37:22 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by SDW:
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This is about who want's comments and who don't. That simple!...
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Scott, I see your point, I just disagree with it. The reason I disagree with it is because it because it still sounds like you are presupposing that just because a particular photog doesn't mark a comment as helpful, it means they don't want it.
Additionally, it presupposes that just because a comment isn't marked helpful by the photographer of the image in question that *any other* photographer wouldn't find it helpful.
Think community/public square rather than house/two-way street.
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 09:37:36. |
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03/21/2009 09:41:43 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by SDW:
This is about who want's comments and who don't. That simple! |
But I only want impressions & reactins......which box do I check?
And that guy over there wants technical suggestions, how about him?
It seems like an awful lot of people spend a lot of time talking about these simple, easily instituted things that the site should implement, yet then regard it as unreasonable when they're not.
Shouldn't there be a level of acceptance to the terrific features and options that ARE available without always insisting that things be changed to suit one more person?
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03/21/2009 09:45:50 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Shouldn't there be a level of acceptance to the terrific features and options that ARE available without always insisting that things be changed to suit one more person? |
Like suggestions get implemented anyways, come on. |
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03/21/2009 09:48:42 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by SDW:
I still don't think most people are getting my point. Please let me try again.
This is not about the check box being checked helpful or not.
This is not about someone not agreeing with my [anyones] comment.
This is not about wanting my comments checked helpful for statistical reasons.
Maybe it's me not being articulate enough for others to understand what I'm requesting.
This is about who want's comments and who don't. That simple!
So here is what I'm say;
1. There are people that wants comments and other that don't.
2. How can we focus our comments on the ones that do. Even if they don't find them helpful.
3. The commenter only has X time to comment and need not waste it on someone that don't care for comments.
4. A simple check box letting the PHOTOGRAPHER make a choice if he or she wants comments.
5. Doing this would help comments go to the users that want comments.
6. As it is now, when I or others comment on someone that does NOT wish for a comment that is one less comment for a photographer that does want a comment.
My question to all of you that think such a check box is bad, is Why? |
I think one of the issues here is not just that some people like to receive comments for different reasons, but that they also give them for different reasons. It likely depends on where they are with their own photography. I'm still learning, so I love to receive technical critiques as well as general comments. I was helped tremendously when I started photography by people telling me that my focus was too soft, or that not centering a subject might have helped make it a better photograph, or that my white balance was wrong. As I become better at making my own choices, those comments become slightly less useful, but not entirely yet.
I was (and still am) extremely grateful for comments on this site. Others may not find them as useful, but I still do. This gratitude makes me want to give back to those who want advice, who may be where I was just recently. However, I certainly don't want to give advice to those who are offended by it, or even those who simply are past that. I'm also getting a little better at seeing photography, so I don't try to offer advice on photographs that were clearly done in a certain way on purpose.
This site has a large range of skill, and a large variety of reasons for being here. Some, like me, are actually looking for technical advice as well as participating for other reasons. I don't see why it would be a bad thing to allow those who want technical advice to say so in a checkbox, and I certainly believe that if such a checkbox existed that those persons would get a lot more comments that would be helpful to them. Some people have stated that they don't want any comments - why not allow them to say that?
I really don't see why SDW's question gets bashed so quickly. I think it would be helpful to have three radio buttons on your profile:
- I would like all comments, including technical advice
- I would like non-technical comments only
- I don't want any comments
The default could be "I don't want any comments".
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03/21/2009 09:50:59 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by SDW:
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This is about who want's comments and who don't. That simple!...
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Scott, I see your point, I just disagree with it. The reason I disagree with it is because it because it still sounds like you are presupposing that just because a particular photog doesn't mark a comment as helpful, it means they don't want it. |
If the photographer check a box saying he or she does not want comments, I'm not assuming they don't want them, I know they don't. So the feature would not allow comments to be posted for that particular photograph or photographer.
Originally posted by L2:
Additionally, it presupposes that just because a comment isn't marked helpful by the photographer of the image in question that *any other* photographer wouldn't find it helpful. |
If there was no comment because the photographer didn't want one then there would be no presupposed situation.
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03/21/2009 09:51:51 AM · #58 |
Just to contribute my .02 CDN...ever since I've joined, I have learned a huge amount from this site, and a lot of what I have learned have been from comments. I quickly learned that if at least 50% of all commenters made the same basic comment about my shot, ie 'oof' or 'blurry' they were probably right. So thanks to them I learned how to correct basic problems. It's usually then that I go to the forums and seek advice on how to fix problems, and from there I learn more. So, unless a commentor is simply being snarky and not really addressing the qualities of the photo at all, I will check the box.
And in terms of commenting, if I am going to take the time to leave you a comment (as I try to leave constructive critiques rather than just neutral sops like 'nice shot') I would like SOME form of acknowledgement. |
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03/21/2009 09:52:37 AM · #59 |
| But... but... Jeb... I've left you comments you haven't marked as "Helpful"... sniff. |
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03/21/2009 09:59:12 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
But... but... Jeb... I've left you comments you haven't marked as "Helpful"... sniff. |
REALLY?????
My bad!
I try to mark them all except the mean ones.....were they mean?......8>)
ETA: Duh!
It took me a while to figure out that there was a "sort by comments not marked" choice......mission accomplished! LOL!!!
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 10:43:28.
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03/21/2009 10:29:15 AM · #61 |
I've got a little lost in the various twists and turns of this thread - but I think that I'm with Scott - I've often got confused when I come across someone who may have thousands of comments made on their pictures and none marked as helpful.
I struggle to believe none of them were ever read or ever appreciated, yet there is no apparent acknowledgement that someone, somewhere, took a few minutes out of their busy life to make a comment on your picture. I find this strange and I guess truth be told poor etiquette.
Whether every picture is marked as helpful or not is another story all together - but when you get to hundreds, or thousands of comments ignored (including Blue Ribbon Winners) it just seems a little too much like taking and not giving back. However if someone specifically doesn't want comments against their shots, then to be able to tick a box to prevent it happening seems fine.
Funnily enough if people leave my comments unticked it doesn't bother me specifically - it's their choice and hey maybe my comments aren't what they wanted - but when you find that they have not responded to any comments . . I struggle with where they are coming from.
Maybe we should all be made to make a comment for every unticked comment we have recieved as pennance :- )
That way we can still choose to ignore comments if we want to - but we'll have to do more commenting to make up for it :- )
edit for spelling
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 10:54:40. |
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03/21/2009 10:42:18 AM · #62 |
It seems like we can all learn from the comments, not just the photographer and commenter. So what about letting everyone mark a comment as helpful. Sort of like the thumbs up/thumbs down ranking you would see with a review site. I don't know how a statistic would be calculated though across thousands of photos.
If someone leaves detailed or thoughtful comments that go beyond 'nice shot', more people could read them and mark them as helpful. Commenters would feel like their efforts were being appreciated by somebody, even if the original photographer didn't check the little box (might help with CC critiques too, which often seem to go unchecked). If someone consistently leave comments like 'nice shot', less people would mark them helpful, except perhaps the photographer who appreciates the effort or feedback.
I'm sure there are plenty of flaws with the idea, but it seems that the argument keeps coming up that comments affect more than just the photographer/commenter. |
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03/21/2009 10:49:01 AM · #63 |
How about if you go back and knock a point or two off on the photos that didn't mark your photos helpful right before rollover.
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 10:55:50.
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03/21/2009 11:01:00 AM · #64 |
Actually, I'm not thinking that the issue is about whether the comments CAN be given or not, but rather whether the photographer cares.
A simple red light, green light scenario would work too.
If the photographer wanted comments, there could be a little green thing.
Those who were voting/viewing could comment normally and could reasonably expect their comment to be read by the person who took the photo as well as others.
On the other hand, if the photographer didn't care about comments, then a little red light could show in a discreet place. This could indicate to the viewer that the comment will possibly never be read by the photographer.
Comments could still be made, but it would be reasonable to expect that the person who took the photograph simply isn't going to care about an in depth comment.
If you still felt a need to comment something more in depth, it could be more appropriately simply a reaction or personal reflection based on the shot. But there would be no hard feelings if the comment never got acknowledged in any way by the photog. It would just be raw expression.
No point in making anyone 'above' comments. I'm sure even serious pro's like the above mentioned Joey and Martin and whoever else still enjoy getting and reading comments in their spare time.
PS. I still think an extra box to indicate that a comment was 'read' is a good idea.
I think that kteach also has a good idea. I'm sure that it would be simple to lift code from something like youtube's comment rating code. Yahoo answers has something virtually identical.
Yeah, i think these are ways of improving the 'community' rather than the 2 way street.
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 11:03:55. |
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03/21/2009 11:07:16 AM · #65 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[quote=SDW]
My point is that you, as a commenter, shouldn't be so concerned about getting the helpful box checked. On the flip side of this issue, some photographers out there check every comment they get as helpful. Is that not just as 'bad' as checking none of them? |
I might be one of those people who check almost everything as helpful. If I get "nice pic", while not extremely helpful, it does help assure me that I am reaching some people, and that I still have a way to go. So it is also helpful in what it does not say. If they hate the image, well it is harder to like the comment, but it is also helpful. Sometimes more so.
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03/21/2009 11:08:45 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
No point in making anyone 'above' comments. I'm sure even serious pro's like the above mentioned Joey and Martin and whoever else still enjoy getting and reading comments in their spare time. |
My comment wasn't that those people were above comments.......I'm sure that most photogs appreciate hearing the reactions or emotionms their images evoke.
My point was that someone like me certainly isn't likely to going to offer that level of photographer any insight into improving their images.
At least I wouldn't presume to be able to.....hence I generally comment as to my impressions and reactions as opposed to making comments of a technical nature.
Oh.....and I'm am one of those people who *HATE* those nit-picky "The *blank* is distracting.", especially when it's a reach......8>)
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03/21/2009 11:17:06 AM · #67 |
In the context of the status quo, it's very simple for me: if you take the time to comment, I will take the time to read it and acknowledge it. So I check the box on every single comment, once I've read it. End of story.
If someone doesn't check the box on a comment I have made, I assume the comment has not been read. I think "This comment was helpful" is a ridiculous tag-line to put beside the box, because that's so ambiguous. I think if the box just said "This comment has been read by the photographer" we'd see a lot more of them checked off.
I see absolutely NO reason to delay implementing some variant of Scott's suggestion; I've advocated it myself in the past. If some sort of signaling system were set in place to indicate the shooter's preferences, and if that system did NOT keep viewers from making comments if so motivated, then it's win/win for everyone as far as I can see; if the image just *makes* you want to comment, go ahead, in the full awareness that the shooter doesn't care what you've got to say. But if you're leaving detailed comments like I often do, technical-type comments, it would be REALLY nice to know they were going in a direction where they'd be appreciated for what they are.
R.
Message edited by author 2009-03-21 11:18:36.
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03/21/2009 11:17:07 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by eschelar:
Actually, I'm not thinking that the issue is about whether the comments CAN be given or not, but rather whether the photographer cares.
A simple red light, green light scenario would work too.
If the photographer wanted comments, there could be a little green thing. |
I read through the first and last (so far) parts of this thread and agree with much of everyone's comments. But the main flaw I see in all this is I think that whether there is no comment box for those that don't opt-in to comments or a red light that they don't care for comments it will affect the vote consciously or sub-consciously. Voters will think less of a photo or photographer if he/she tells them up front he/she doesn't care if anybody comments. Thus everyone will click that they want comments whether they do or not so people will vote higher. |
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03/21/2009 11:19:39 AM · #69 |
I like comments
yes - they can be helpful
yes - I read them
yes - I appreciate them
yes - they are useful
But, to me the feature promotes forms of bias and is a masterpiece of programming redundancy.
yes - I have paid my niece $25.00 to unclick them and have ceased to waste my time using the feature.
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03/21/2009 11:23:45 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by undieyatch:
yes - I have paid my niece $25.00 to unclick them and have ceased to waste my time using the feature. |
And I just paid my nephew three pepperoni pizzas to hack your password and check 'em all over again!
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03/21/2009 11:39:06 AM · #71 |
It's all about efficiency. The more comments we can give the photographers that want them the better.
We know it is impossible, due to time, to comment on every photograph, in every challenge, all the time. So we have to look at efficiency.
If photography "A" says he really don't care for comments and check a box saying so, it will give the commenter time to comment on photographer "B" photo where he or she wants a comment. Then photographer "B" can check it helpful (or a Bear_Music stated - some other tag line) if the photographer finds it to be helpful. I really like the suggestion that the box just "you comment has been view/read".
I'm not being selfish, rude, or even complaining about users that choose not to check the box when they feel it's not helpful. I'm talking about the user that never checks anyone's comments. We don't know if they want them, read them, learn from them, care for them. So it would make sense to give that photographer the option to let us know if he or she wants a comment or not. Then our [commenter] time can be go to a photographer that wants a comment and reads them, learns from them, etc.
When such suggestions are brought up here some don't want to hear them. You hear the words "dead horse", "if it's not broke don't fix it, and other terms. I'm beginning to think some of these people are saying "It's not broke if we don't discuss it".
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03/21/2009 11:51:01 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by SDW:
So here is what I'm say;
1. There are people that wants comments and other that don't.
2. How can we focus our comments on the ones that do. Even if they don't find them helpful.
3. The commenter only has X time to comment and need not waste it on someone that don't care for comments.
4. A simple check box letting the PHOTOGRAPHER make a choice if he or she wants comments.
5. Doing this would help comments go to the users that want comments.
6. As it is now, when I or others comment on someone that does NOT wish for a comment that is one less comment for a photographer that does want a comment.
My question to all of you that think such a check box is bad, is Why? |
I understand what you are saying here completely. The first problem is that #1 is probably nearly 100% incorrect. I really think that everyone who post photos here wants comments or they wouldn't post them photo to start with.
#2 through #6 SHOULD be irrelevant to a photographer who is leaving comments. What I am saying here is that those are issues you should not worry about. Make your comment useful to YOURSELF as a photographer. YOU will benefit from what you write, especially if you take the time to write it properly. You many not have enough time to comment on as many as you would like in a given challenge, but you will learn more and learn how to analyze a photograph more thoroughly.
To answer your question, yes. I think a check box to use if you don't want comments would be almost as useless as the request for in depth critique check box. The in-depth critique check box used to get checked by well over 95% of challenge participants. That tells me that less than 5% of challenge participants would use a box to prevent comments on their image.
We, as photographers, are a bunch of egotistical bastards or we wouldn't be posting our photos in public online forums :)
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03/21/2009 11:53:24 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think a check box to use if you don't want comments would be almost as useless as the request for in depth critique check box. The in-depth critique check box used to get checked by well over 95% of challenge participants. That tells me that less than 5% of challenge participants would use a box to prevent comments on their image. |
I virtually never check that box........8>)
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03/21/2009 11:54:29 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
I think a check box to use if you don't want comments would be almost as useless as the request for in depth critique check box. The in-depth critique check box used to get checked by well over 95% of challenge participants. That tells me that less than 5% of challenge participants would use a box to prevent comments on their image. |
I virtually never check that box........8>) |
Me either but I can assure you that MOST do :)
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03/21/2009 12:02:15 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by SDW:
So here is what I'm say;
1. There are people that wants comments and other that don't.
2. How can we focus our comments on the ones that do. Even if they don't find them helpful.
3. The commenter only has X time to comment and need not waste it on someone that don't care for comments.
4. A simple check box letting the PHOTOGRAPHER make a choice if he or she wants comments.
5. Doing this would help comments go to the users that want comments.
6. As it is now, when I or others comment on someone that does NOT wish for a comment that is one less comment for a photographer that does want a comment.
My question to all of you that think such a check box is bad, is Why? |
I understand what you are saying here completely. The first problem is that #1 is probably nearly 100% incorrect. I really think that everyone who post photos here wants comments or they wouldn't post them photo to start with.
#2 through #6 SHOULD be irrelevant to a photographer who is leaving comments. What I am saying here is that those are issues you should not worry about. Make your comment useful to YOURSELF as a photographer. YOU will benefit from what you write, especially if you take the time to write it properly. You many not have enough time to comment on as many as you would like in a given challenge, but you will learn more and learn how to analyze a photograph more thoroughly.
To answer your question, yes. I think a check box to use if you don't want comments would be almost as useless as the request for in depth critique check box. The in-depth critique check box used to get checked by well over 95% of challenge participants. That tells me that less than 5% of challenge participants would use a box to prevent comments on their image.
We, as photographers, are a bunch of egotistical bastards or we wouldn't be posting our photos in public online forums :) |
I couldn't add any more to this if I wanted to, but it resonates soundly. Agree 100% |
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