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02/17/2009 12:07:05 PM · #101
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What a crock.


If you are trying to iritate me today you'll have to do better than that. How is that 2 million liberals could get into DC for the Inaguration within a couple of days in sub-zero freezing temperatures, while 200,000 couldn't get out of New Orleans (Katrina) in 80 dgeree weather and 5 days notice? Where is all the hollering and blaming and "poor me I'm a victim" going on in Kentucky with the tremendous impact from the recent storms? There isn't any? Hear anyone blaming the new administration for thousands being without power? Ever ask yourself why not?

Philosophical differences. Some see themselves as victims - others see themselves as personally accountable. Those who consistently see themselves as victims typically vote democratic as the democratic platform typically supports dependency. Those who see themselves as more self reliant, typically support republicans. No crock and bull here.
02/17/2009 12:10:23 PM · #102
Originally posted by citymars:

Originally posted by Flash:

... This is the consistent theme/mantra of liberals ...

No, as demonstrated by how many times you've repeated this distorted accusation, the consistent "mantra" is yours.

Hey, I have an idea. Why don't you go vote on a challenge or try to improve your photography or something? This site is good for that, too!


Do you have some suggestions for improving my photography? Feel free to PM me or comment on any images in my portfolio.
02/17/2009 12:22:57 PM · #103
Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What a crock.


If you are trying to iritate me today you'll have to do better than that. How is that 2 million liberals could get into DC for the Inaguration within a couple of days in sub-zero freezing temperatures, while 200,000 couldn't get out of New Orleans (Katrina) in 80 dgeree weather and 5 days notice? Where is all the hollering and blaming and "poor me I'm a victim" going on in Kentucky with the tremendous impact from the recent storms? There isn't any? Hear anyone blaming the new administration for thousands being without power? Ever ask yourself why not?

Philosophical differences. Some see themselves as victims - others see themselves as personally accountable. Those who consistently see themselves as victims typically vote democratic as the democratic platform typically supports dependency. Those who see themselves as more self reliant, typically support republicans. No crock and bull here.


You continue to present the Republicans as being "Individually Responsible" when there's an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

At least you aren't waving the "Republicans are fiscally responsible" flag. After the past 8 years of pissing dollars down an oil well and a $350B handout to Bush's Wall St. buddies that ship has sailed.
02/17/2009 12:31:59 PM · #104
You are referring to political figures. He is referring to we the people who are republicans and he is correct. Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others. I bust my butt everyday and go to work. Which is what everyone should be doing who can physically do so. How was this country built in the first place? From people sitting around doing nothing but yet still expecting something in return? As for the Katrina victims. They were warned to leave. If those idiots go and rebuild just to have another hurricane come through then they deserve whatever happens to them.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What a crock.


Those who consistently see themselves as victims typically vote democratic as the democratic platform typically supports dependency. Those who see themselves as more self reliant, typically support republicans. No crock and bull here.


You continue to present the Republicans as being "Individually Responsible" when there's an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

At least you aren't waving the "Republicans are fiscally responsible" flag. After the past 8 years of pissing dollars down an oil well and a $350B handout to Bush's Wall St. buddies that ship has sailed.
02/17/2009 12:40:11 PM · #105
Originally posted by Chinabun:

You are referring to political figures. He is referring to we the people who are republicans and he is correct. Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others. I bust my butt everyday and go to work. Which is what everyone should be doing who can physically do so. How was this country built in the first place? From people sitting around doing nothing but yet still expecting something in return? As for the Katrina victims. They were warned to leave. If those idiots go and rebuild just to have another hurricane come through then they deserve whatever happens to them.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

What a crock.


Those who consistently see themselves as victims typically vote democratic as the democratic platform typically supports dependency. Those who see themselves as more self reliant, typically support republicans. No crock and bull here.


You continue to present the Republicans as being "Individually Responsible" when there's an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

At least you aren't waving the "Republicans are fiscally responsible" flag. After the past 8 years of pissing dollars down an oil well and a $350B handout to Bush's Wall St. buddies that ship has sailed.


Really? Who elects those Republican political figures to represent them? Could it be....Republicans aren't they responsible for those they elect?

I bust my butt at work too. Are you suggesting that by voting Democrat I'm looking for a handout? What do you do about people who are physically able to work, but there are no jobs to be had? What planet do you live on anyway?

Why shouldn't government help people? What do you think goverment should do? Just make rules to please the religious conservatives? Do you really believe all that crap you read in Ayn Rand's books?

Message edited by author 2009-02-17 13:19:10.
02/17/2009 12:40:13 PM · #106
Originally posted by Chinabun:

You are referring to political figures. He is referring to we the people who are republicans and he is correct. Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others.

What prejudiced BS ... have you ever heard the term "working class"? How often do you hear it applied to people who tend to vote Republican? What part of "work" in "working class" don't you understand?
02/17/2009 12:54:13 PM · #107
Originally posted by GeneralE:

What prejudiced BS ... have you ever heard the term "working class"? How often do you hear it applied to people who tend to vote Republican?


All the time.

Do you assume all/most republicans are not "working class" and then have the nerve to call someone prejudiced?
02/17/2009 01:01:12 PM · #108
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Chinabun:

You are referring to political figures. He is referring to we the people who are republicans and he is correct. Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others.

What prejudiced BS ... have you ever heard the term "working class"? How often do you hear it applied to people who tend to vote Republican? What part of "work" in "working class" don't you understand?


Before this gets too out of hand; you are correct in that many many "blue collar" working class voters vote democratic. Historically they were union workers - however that is less so today. Fewer are unionized, but that may change here shortly. The unions from the 50's were based on a loose model of communism as many of their founders visited Russia and adopted socialistic principles. The concept of "all workers getting the same wage" is a socialistic principle. While it serves to address disparity and prejudice by management, it also serves to relegate the workforce as a whole to the lowest of abilities rather than the highest. This is a spiral downward over time. The democratic party is strongly supported by unions. The democrats are more aligned with a national healthcare system - just one example of how working class voters support the "dependency" state offered by democrats. We could discuss the philosophy of democrats as it relates to supporting illegals living here, but I suspect that those living in XCalifornia and some border states, could speak firsthand on this. The drain and cost to the taxpayers, yet supported by the democrats/liberals.
02/17/2009 01:16:30 PM · #109
Originally posted by Flash:

Do you have some suggestions for improving my photography? Feel free to PM me or comment on any images in my portfolio.

No, my comment wasn't meant as criticism of your photography. Sorry if it sounded that way.
02/17/2009 01:26:36 PM · #110
Originally posted by Chinabun:

Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others.

That might be true of some, though the people I know who vote Democrat -- including myself -- do it for other reasons. I believe in civil rights, the separation of church and state, limits to the government's ability to spy on its citizens, circumspection when starting wars, conservation of natural resources, clean air and water, that the individual should not be less important than the corporation, etc., etc.
02/17/2009 01:38:27 PM · #111
Wow. I am really surprised by the current page of back and forth slams on both groups of people (democrats and republicans). Both, it seems, are guilty of not only mis-understanding each other, but of labeling and pigeon-holing. Wow. I have no other words, which is an oddity...

As for Katrina, it is all well and good to call them idiots for not leaving with warning, but you are assuming: 1 - they had the means to leave and 2 - they had somewhere else to go. Not everyone is so lucky. It is their home, their life, and their livelihood. Until you have been there, you really have no clue and no way to judge. and yes, I have been there)

As for democrats, unions, and socialism, until you have been the one discriminated against, until you have been the one that was paid less, treated badly, denied civil rights, just because of who you are, you have no right to judge. Unions did more for the people of this country than big business ever will.

As for republicans, they make some good points with regard to personal responsibility.

I personally am a democratic socialist, which I fully admit. I think Roosevelt had the right idea during the depression, no matter how many people were against him, and his work helped in making this country as wonderful as it can be. I hope Obama is led in the right direction by his advisers, and the people of this country regain some of the power they lost during the big business takeover promoted by W and Reagan.

But remember, it is easy to sling arrows at what you do not understand. Try thinking like the people you deplore, and maybe you will understand a little more. Something about walking in the shoes of another...the world is not so black and white as some people seem to believe...
02/17/2009 01:41:27 PM · #112
Originally posted by Flash:

How is that 2 million liberals could get into DC for the Inaguration within a couple of days in sub-zero freezing temperatures, while 200,000 couldn't get out of New Orleans (Katrina) in 80 dgeree weather and 5 days notice? Where is all the hollering and blaming and "poor me I'm a victim" going on in Kentucky with the tremendous impact from the recent storms? ...

Those who consistently see themselves as victims typically vote democratic ... Those who see themselves as more self reliant, typically support republicans. ...


Were the people who failed to leave New Orleans all democrats? Are all the residents in Kentucky republican? If not, doesn't that alone demonstrate the utter fallacy of your argument?

Would you hold the same to be true if we described democrats as socially responsible team-players (rather than victims) and republicans as selfish loners (rather than self reliant)? Your choice of words has little to do with logical argument but much to do with your personal prejudices.
02/17/2009 01:48:42 PM · #113
Originally posted by LoudDog:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

What prejudiced BS ... have you ever heard the term "working class"? How often do you hear it applied to people who tend to vote Republican?


All the time.

Do you assume all/most republicans are not "working class" and then have the nerve to call someone prejudiced?

Thanks for the info -- I guess I haven't ...

I didn't state any assumptions -- merely asked a question about how certain groups are typically represented.

However, since you bring it up, we all have our prejudices, derived from our previous exeriences, and will have a tendency to act through that filter. I think the divide between intellectual and idealogue comes when there's a choice to be bound by prejudice, or to change one's actions and beliefs based on the rational analysis and application of new eveidence which contradicts that prejudice.
02/17/2009 01:56:29 PM · #114
Originally posted by dahkota:

Wow. I am really surprised by the current page of back and forth slams on both groups of people (democrats and republicans). Both, it seems, are guilty of not only mis-understanding each other, but of labeling and pigeon-holing. Wow. I have no other words, which is an oddity...

As for Katrina, it is all well and good to call them idiots for not leaving with warning, but you are assuming: 1 - they had the means to leave and 2 - they had somewhere else to go. Not everyone is so lucky. It is their home, their life, and their livelihood. Until you have been there, you really have no clue and no way to judge. and yes, I have been there)

As for democrats, unions, and socialism, until you have been the one discriminated against, until you have been the one that was paid less, treated badly, denied civil rights, just because of who you are, you have no right to judge. Unions did more for the people of this country than big business ever will.

As for republicans, they make some good points with regard to personal responsibility.

I personally am a democratic socialist, which I fully admit. I think Roosevelt had the right idea during the depression, no matter how many people were against him, and his work helped in making this country as wonderful as it can be. I hope Obama is led in the right direction by his advisers, and the people of this country regain some of the power they lost during the big business takeover promoted by W and Reagan.

But remember, it is easy to sling arrows at what you do not understand. Try thinking like the people you deplore, and maybe you will understand a little more. Something about walking in the shoes of another...the world is not so black and white as some people seem to believe...


1. You are correct in that I am using "generalities" and chose words specifically to address them as "generalities". Yes "generalities" can be wrong - but you get the reputation of the group you run with. If I ride up to your front step with a half dozen buds with long ponytails, scruffy beards, and tats - regardless if I was the biggest teddy bear you ever knew - I'd still carry the reputation of my buds.
2. Lots went wrong with Katrina - and some of it was the people themselves. Becoming dependent upon government for literally generations, is not good. At some point, you loose all responsibility.
3. I admire your straightforwardedness. I think there are a lot more democratic socialist posting here as well.
4. If you lived in Pittsburg in the 70's when they lost the steelmills or in Detroitor Pontaic or Flint or Saginaw in the 90's/00's as they loose the manufacturing jobs, then you know first hand what happens to a people who have been misled by their leadership.
02/17/2009 01:59:03 PM · #115
Originally posted by Chinabun:

Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others. I bust my butt everyday and go to work. Which is what everyone should be doing who can physically do so. How was this country built in the first place? From people sitting around doing nothing but yet still expecting something in return?


There are a bunch of people in this thread - including Flash and one or two other arch-republicans - who could probably do with your sage advice. It seems that some of them think that the economic climate is responsible for rising unemployment rather than, as you so keenly perceive, laziness on their part.
02/17/2009 02:05:06 PM · #116
Originally posted by Flash:

The concept of "all workers getting the same wage" is a socialistic principle.


This is a communist principle - not a socialist principle. Socialism provides a safety net - a minimum standard of life, not an equal standard. If you are making mistakes of this kind, that might explain your animosity towards social liberalism.
02/17/2009 02:08:25 PM · #117
Originally posted by Flash:


1. You are correct in that I am using "generalities" and chose words specifically to address them as "generalities". Yes "generalities" can be wrong - but you get the reputation of the group you run with. If I ride up to your front step with a half dozen buds with long ponytails, scruffy beards, and tats - regardless if I was the biggest teddy bear you ever knew - I'd still carry the reputation of my buds.


Maybe I am just generous to a fault. For me, no reputation exists that isn't earned - I believe it when I see it. My husband and I argue (a lot) because of his liberal use of generalities - of course, he is a republican. You know how they can be... ;)

So please, ride up to my front step, scruffy beard and all. While my husband might look at you twice, I will offer you a beer and whatever else you need (and probably ask where you got that wicked tat). :)
02/17/2009 02:12:52 PM · #118
Matthew, do you own anything and/or make a lot of money? What I mean is, did you work hard for what you have and wish to freely give it away to folks who don't wish to work as hard as you?
02/17/2009 02:15:17 PM · #119
Originally posted by dahkota:

Originally posted by Flash:


1. You are correct in that I am using "generalities" and chose words specifically to address them as "generalities". Yes "generalities" can be wrong - but you get the reputation of the group you run with. If I ride up to your front step with a half dozen buds with long ponytails, scruffy beards, and tats - regardless if I was the biggest teddy bear you ever knew - I'd still carry the reputation of my buds.


Maybe I am just generous to a fault. For me, no reputation exists that isn't earned - I believe it when I see it. My husband and I argue (a lot) because of his liberal use of generalities - of course, he is a republican. You know how they can be... ;)

So please, ride up to my front step, scruffy beard and all. While my husband might look at you twice, I will offer you a beer and whatever else you need (and probably ask where you got that wicked tat). :)


;-)
02/17/2009 02:15:41 PM · #120
Why do you keep framing the debate in terms of laziness vs. industriousness? Do you believe that anyone who benefits from social programs is merely looking for a handout? Do you think all people who need help are there because of laziness? Do you think that society doesn't benefit when people are pulled out of poverty?

Message edited by author 2009-02-17 14:18:23.
02/17/2009 02:19:47 PM · #121
Originally posted by Chinabun:

Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others.

If you're not helping yourself or others, then you're not helping anyone.
02/17/2009 03:10:45 PM · #122
two stories of people I know who got 'handouts:'

A man who dropped out of high school at 15 to support the child his girlfriend had (the rubber does break). Worked at McDonald's until one night, walking home from work, he was caught in cross fire and shot 6 times. He will spend the rest of his life in a wheel chair. He got training and is now a counselor, but spent years on medical assistance, welfare, and food stamps, as did his child.

Divorced woman with 2 school age children whose husband refused to pay child support (he was abusive, so she left - he figured she left, her loss). She received food stamps, childcare subsidies, and tax breaks. While receiving these 'handouts,' she worked fulltime and earned a degree in Social Work so she could help others like her, often spending hours at a rape crisis center counseling other women in similar circumstances.

the first person is a friend of mine - I met him in the neighborhood I lived in about a month before he was shot. He had wanted to be a musician so he hung out at our house a lot. The neighborhood, in DC, was called Hanover (Short for Hanover your money or die).

the second person is my mother.

both are democrats. Both worked hard for what they got. Both needed the 'system' to help them over a rough period. Both gave back what they got. Not everyone who votes democrat is waiting for a handout. Not everyone needing a handout is lazy. Not everyone who doesn't need a handout is a good person.
02/17/2009 03:51:36 PM · #123
Dear My Fellow Dependocrats

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

You continue to present the Republicans as being "Individually Responsible" when there's an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

It's funny how you twist words, because that isn't even what I said.

Really? Who elects those Republican political figures to represent them? Could it be....Republicans aren't they responsible for those they elect?

Everyone who voted is responsible but what does that have to do with what I said? You are automatically assuming.

I bust my butt at work too. Are you suggesting that by voting Democrat I'm looking for a handout? What do you do about people who are physically able to work, but there are no jobs to be had? What planet do you live on anyway?

Once again you don't read well. I said most people. I don't know why you would choose to vote that way.

Why shouldn't government help people? What do you think goverment should do? Just make rules to please the religious conservatives? Do you really believe all that crap you read in Ayn Rand's books?


I never said the government shouldn't help people and I don't follow religion. Who is Ayn Rand? The government can help people who try to help themselves.

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Chinabun:

Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to "help" them or others.

If you're not helping yourself or others, then you're not helping anyone.


I do help myself and I help others who NEED it. I do not want to help people who do not want to help themselves. Example: I work fulltime and go to college part time. I pay for all of my tuition. Under your rule I should just quit my fulltime job, have a kid, and attend college fulltime so you tax payers can pay for it, meanwhile not having any type of debt once I leave school.

It's useless trying to explain anything to you guys. All I want is for people to go to work and TRY to support themselves. If those people still need help then fine. But atleast make an effort to help yourself. Stop depending on everyone else.
02/17/2009 04:14:47 PM · #124
Originally posted by Chinabun:

All I want is for people to go to work and TRY to support themselves.

Nobody has suggested otherwise, and it's silly to claim even the most left-wing liberal would actually want to support laziness. I was just pointing out that your assertion, "Most people who vote democrat are people who are looking for someone to 'help' them or others," isn't a party indicator. It should be equally true of ALL people, Democrat or Republican. We elect representative to help ourselves and others (the people). Officials who DON'T help us or others are only helping themselves... by relaxing regulations and deferring long term issues like health care, energy independence, and education in favor of short term gains so they can line their own pockets and secure their own personal or political futures. Not that we would ever elect people like tha... DOH!
02/17/2009 04:33:32 PM · #125
Originally posted by Chinabun:

Dear My Fellow Dependocrats

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

You continue to present the Republicans as being "Individually Responsible" when there's an avalanche of evidence to the contrary.

It's funny how you twist words, because that isn't even what I said.

Really? Who elects those Republican political figures to represent them? Could it be....Republicans aren't they responsible for those they elect?

Everyone who voted is responsible but what does that have to do with what I said? You are automatically assuming.

I bust my butt at work too. Are you suggesting that by voting Democrat I'm looking for a handout? What do you do about people who are physically able to work, but there are no jobs to be had? What planet do you live on anyway?

Once again you don't read well. I said most people. I don't know why you would choose to vote that way.

Why shouldn't government help people? What do you think goverment should do? Just make rules to please the religious conservatives? Do you really believe all that crap you read in Ayn Rand's books?


I never said the government shouldn't help people and I don't follow religion. Who is Ayn Rand? The government can help people who try to help themselves.



I didn't post the "Individually responsible" comment in response to you. Please pay attention.

I'm not assuming any more than you are.

Who said anything about people not trying to help themselves?

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