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02/02/2009 02:06:50 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No, please go back and re-read what I wrote. I proposed increasing the gas price to $8/gal for EVERYONE regardless of the vehicle they drive. At no time did I suggest that people not be allowed to drive whatever vehicle they choose.
I suggested that exceptions be made in the form of exemptions and/or subsidies for work vehicles used in certain industries. There's nothing new about such programs, things like farm subsidies have been ongoing for decades. |
I understood that your interest in raising the fuel price (via increased taxes - per the Alchohol and Tobacco examples) was an attempt to curb use of lower milage vehicles (like trucks and SUVs) as is the intent to curb tobacco use and alchohol consumption. This "sin tax" is an attempt to penalize certain owners per your agenda that they are making poor choices - thus influencing their behavior. If this is not what you are proposing, then forgive my misunderstanding. |
No, the fact is that it will hit the drivers of inefficient vehicles the hardest in terms of absolute dollars/mile, but everyone would pay the same per gallon premium for fuel. I proposed $8/gallon because that's roughly the price of fuel in Europe and I don't see their society falling apart. Goods still get where they're going, people still get to work, the store, where ever they need to go. What you don't see is wasteful use of limited resources. |
I think this helps. I clearly was associating your use of "sin" with pennance (penalty). Thus my conclusion that your $8/gal (inclusive of a sin tax) was punitive towards those driving SUV's in an effort to thwart their behavior and limit their choice (along with your alchohol and tobacco examples). Add in the recurring critiques against pick up trucks and SUV's along with your touting your particular skill at navigating winter roads with small compact vehicles, and claiming that few NEED a larger vehicle, I think you can grasp why I concluded as I did. |
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02/02/2009 02:08:13 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Now, to be fair, when the Japanese started exporting to North America they were exporting junk to compete with the NA junk. However, they learned from their mistakes and started producing much more reliable cars. What did the NA manufacturers do? Kept producing junk and then complained about the imports to get tariffs imposed. |
It wasn't so much junk as different, and to be fair, peculiar. Honda 600s, Subaru FF1s, Toyota Carinas, and believe it or not, it was Nissan beforeit was Datsun, then back.
The did learn about American tastes and change the way they did things, but then they also showed people that these silly little cheap cars could go 200K and everything still worked and parts didn't fall off.
Their build quality was awesome even if the steel did rot right out from underneath you while you were driving......8>)
That was one thing that saddened me whan I worked in an Olds/Honda dealer.....the astonishingly accurate door gaps on a bottom line Civic, and then going over to a top of the line Olds 98 or Toronado and looking at the horrible orange peel in the paint and the atrocious fit and finish of the body panels......and this was circa 1978.
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02/02/2009 02:26:35 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That was one thing that saddened me whan I worked in an Olds/Honda dealer.....the astonishingly accurate door gaps on a bottom line Civic, and then going over to a top of the line Olds 98 or Toronado and looking at the horrible orange peel in the paint and the atrocious fit and finish of the body panels......and this was circa 1978. |
I drove a Buick Reatta for 18 years. 1988-2006. Buick 3800 motor. Essentially hand built at the Reatta Craft Centre. Zinc dipped. Flawless dupont paint. CRT for most all controls. Beautiful ride and a beautiful car. Drove it every day - sun/rain/snow/sleet. Showed it at the Buick 100th alongside 80 other Reattas. As an older model and daily driver, she showed very well. Our experiences have indeed been very different.
ETA: in fact I'll resign up here so that my portfolio can house some of the photos of this 18 year old daily driver of Michigan winters vehicle when I sold it with the original paint, interior, etc. I'll post some here as well later tonight.
Message edited by author 2009-02-02 14:51:45. |
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02/02/2009 02:40:01 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Flash:
Lets adopt a $1500 tax credit to anyone who buys a new car. That is a stimulus. |
No, that's another bad idea to bolster a national financial disgrace.
The auto industry needs to seriously revamp how it does business, and fix its problems from within. |
1. It was never mandated that the new vehicle had to be domestic.
2. The woes of industry can hardly be laid at the doorstep of the american domestic's as countries all over the world are assisting their home industries.
3. Revamping a business as the US government is doing to the US auto industry, in mandating it manufacture vehicles that the public doesn't want to purchase, will have its own repercussions. |
The EU Emissions Standards are pretty strict and they sell plenty of cars over there.
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Are you seriously suggesting that EU customers are buying American cars?
I can assure you that it's not happening in large numbers at all. |
I've seen plenty of Ford Focuses (Foci?...whatever...), Ford Fiestas, Opels, Dodge Neons, PT Cruisers and, Jeeps in Europe. |
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02/02/2009 03:02:09 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That was one thing that saddened me whan I worked in an Olds/Honda dealer.....the astonishingly accurate door gaps on a bottom line Civic, and then going over to a top of the line Olds 98 or Toronado and looking at the horrible orange peel in the paint and the atrocious fit and finish of the body panels......and this was circa 1978. |
Originally posted by Flash:
I drove a Buick Reatta for 18 years. 1988-2006. Buick 3800 motor. Essentially hand built at the Reatta Craft Centre. Zinc dipped. Flawless dupont paint. CRT for most all controls. Beautiful ride and a beautiful car. Drove it every day - sun/rain/snow/sleet. Showed it at the Buick 100th alongside 80 other Reattas. As an older model and daily driver, she showed very well. Our experiences have indeed been very different. |
ONE car, and you admit that the car was a specialty item tha was essentially hand built.
I had an '85 442 that I bought new. $16K when $11.5K bought you a nice Cutlass Supreme.
At 9000 miles, I spent 11 hours on the line at the dealer straightening out warranty issues. The front clip of the car (It was black) had gold metallic drift in it from the lines that weren't properly cleaned out before the black was run through them, so the front of the body didn't match the back. That 200-4R trans exploded the *second* time at 42K, even though I changed the fluid & filter every 15K.
Electrical problems abounded, the feedback Quadra-Jet was typical in its hot-start problems and hesitated ferociously, the T-Tops leaked like crazy....(Typical), I gave up on GM shocks and put Konis on it after the third set crapped out in 20K miles, the idler arm lasted about 20, I replaced it with a MOOG unit, the headlight switch overheated after four hours night driving.......you have any idea how exciting it is to be on the highway at 65 and have your headlights just wink out?
These were by no means isolated incidents......I was working at an Olds dealer at the time; we were replacing diesel engines like they were a maintenance item, transmissions scattered right and left, steering racks in the A bodies were being replaced at about fifteen a week, and all of this was WARRANTY work.
I got so good at replacing A-body steering racks that I was able to do them in about half the time allotted by the fatory flat rate. You know what the dealer wanted to do to reward me for my efficiency? They decided they were going to cut the flat rate time in half and pay me that.....except that the factory was still paying the dealer the official flat rate so I raised such a stink and threatened to tell the zone rep tht they backed down.
Any questions as to why I have a little bit of an axe to grind with GM?
And yet I still liked the way the cars looked and drove so I suffered through many of the ills to have them.
But I never became blind to the problems.....I stayed informed so that I knew how to deal with the problems WHEN, not if, they happened.
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02/02/2009 03:31:06 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That was one thing that saddened me whan I worked in an Olds/Honda dealer.....the astonishingly accurate door gaps on a bottom line Civic, and then going over to a top of the line Olds 98 or Toronado and looking at the horrible orange peel in the paint and the atrocious fit and finish of the body panels......and this was circa 1978. |
Originally posted by Flash:
I drove a Buick Reatta for 18 years. 1988-2006. Buick 3800 motor. Essentially hand built at the Reatta Craft Centre. Zinc dipped. Flawless dupont paint. CRT for most all controls. Beautiful ride and a beautiful car. Drove it every day - sun/rain/snow/sleet. Showed it at the Buick 100th alongside 80 other Reattas. As an older model and daily driver, she showed very well. Our experiences have indeed been very different. |
ONE car, and you admit that the car was a specialty item tha was essentially hand built.
I had an '85 442 that I bought new. $16K when $11.5K bought you a nice Cutlass Supreme.
... |
You are still relating to 1980's items. And on a 442 - a performance oriented car that typically was driven hard by their owners. Oldsmobile is no longer part of GM. They no longer exist. Reads to me as though you should be giving credit to GM for axing a problematic brand and thus a good business decision. I'll still post pics later of the 18 year old Buick - just so you have evidence of my claim. The properties information should be within the photo file so you can even verify the year the photos were taken. If not I can provide the originals.
I suppose that there are some CTS-V owners out there that have warranty claims as well. Of course they enjoyed the crap out of driving them. Any flying down the autobon with grins wide as airplane wings?
But back to the topic - how is Obama doing on getting the manufacturing base working again so that they can support the country in the manner it has become accustomed. |
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02/02/2009 03:36:34 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
....you have any idea how exciting it is to be on the highway at 65 and have your headlights just wink out? |
Actually, I did have this happen, in the rain near Grant's Pass, Oregon (i.e. mountain highway). But that was in an American-labelled Japanese-built small pickup in the 1980's, so I'm not sure it's exactly relevant to the current situation.
Maybe it's time to get back to talking about the overall political situation -- we're not nearly as entertaining as CarTalk ... |
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02/02/2009 04:08:19 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
[....you have any idea how exciting it is to be on the highway at 65 and have your headlights just wink out?
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Yep. Happened to me in my '82 Civic, only I was going a bit over 65. |
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02/02/2009 05:34:31 PM · #109 |
| Regardless of any new policies, government structure, government bailout, tax credit, tax rebate, stimulus package, etc. I really hope that Obama can fix the rifts that have really swelled in the US over the last four years (four, not eight, so don't slam me for being anti-Bush). I'd like to go back to a time when, even if we didn't agree to something, we would work it out, try to compromise, at least try to understand each other. So many people are just so angry - and they may well have a right to be. But we're all in this boat together. I just want people to stop caring about what side they are on, who is right and who is wrong, and really work to help fix the problems. Maybe I'm an idealist. Maybe not, because I do understand that not everyone is going to be happy. Then call me a dreamer...As far as I am concerned, if people stop pointing fingers at each other and start working with each other, he's accomplished something. |
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02/02/2009 05:36:07 PM · #110 |
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02/02/2009 05:36:39 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
[....you have any idea how exciting it is to be on the highway at 65 and have your headlights just wink out?
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Yep. Happened to me in my '82 Civic, only I was going a bit over 65. |
I've had that happen but it was because both headlights (low beams) burnt out at the same time. Had to drive home through the city with only high beams. Good thing is was late and there was no traffic. |
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02/02/2009 06:16:09 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by Flash:
I drove a Buick Reatta for 18 years. 1988-2006. Buick 3800 motor. Essentially hand built at the Reatta Craft Centre. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
ONE car, and you admit that the car was a specialty item tha was essentially hand built.
I had an '85 442 that I bought new. $16K when $11.5K bought you a nice Cutlass Supreme. |
Originally posted by Flash:
You are still relating to 1980's items. And on a 442 - a performance oriented car that typically was driven hard by their owners. |
This is why it's so difficult to have a discussion with you.
I was comparing your '88 hand built car to my '85 mass production car......
I'm well versed in issues right up to a couple of years ago if you like, but I pretty much think it's a waste of energy trying to get you to honestly look at the issues of the industry in general and GM in particular.
The bottom line is that I have learned to vote with my dollar......if I buy a car and it's junk, I won't buy another.....so I'm done with GM after too many bad experiences.
The Fords we've been driving for about three years have been serving us well.
I'm happy.
Message edited by author 2009-02-02 18:26:04.
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02/03/2009 06:24:17 AM · #113 |
Seems that Obama is getting the message. Last nights news reported that Obama is willing to strip many of the pork items and concentrate on the items that really create jobs. Regardless of who I supported or voted for - he is my President too. I am pleased to see this course change, after trying to shove the original pork laden stimulus package through. A true bi-partisan bill would be a major victory for him and us.
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02/03/2009 09:04:55 AM · #114 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
The Fords we've been driving for about three years have been serving us well.
I'm happy. |
I'm happy that you are happy with your Domestic Fords. They need the sales as well. Your satisfaction with a Domestic manufacturer's product hopefully will continue. They need every customer they can get. The industry has made giant strides in PPM (parts per million - defects) and IPTV (incidents per thousand vehicles). These are important benchmarks for an ever greater satisfied consumer base. |
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02/03/2009 11:08:43 AM · #115 |
GOP leaders list concerns on Stimulus Bill wasteful spending
Millions for Hollywood to buy film...and with movie ticket prices at $12. Right. |
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02/03/2009 11:14:42 AM · #116 |
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02/03/2009 11:52:31 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
I understood that your interest in raising the fuel price (via increased taxes - per the Alchohol and Tobacco examples) was an attempt to curb use of lower milage vehicles (like trucks and SUVs) as is the intent to curb tobacco use and alchohol consumption. This "sin tax" is an attempt to penalize certain owners per your agenda that they are making poor choices - thus influencing their behavior. If this is not what you are proposing, then forgive my misunderstanding. |
No, the fact is that it will hit the drivers of inefficient vehicles the hardest in terms of absolute dollars/mile, but everyone would pay the same per gallon premium for fuel. I proposed $8/gallon because that's roughly the price of fuel in Europe and I don't see their society falling apart. Goods still get where they're going, people still get to work, the store, where ever they need to go. What you don't see is wasteful use of limited resources. |
The problem with the higher gas tax is that once you have changed the publics behavior and forced them into higher milage vehicles, then the State loses revenue and must then come up with either raising the gas tax even more or begin taxing the miles driven as Oregon is proposing. I suspect the Prius owners are pretty steamed over this plan. |
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02/03/2009 01:18:20 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Flash:
Lets adopt a $1500 tax credit to anyone who buys a new car. That is a stimulus. |
No, that's another bad idea to bolster a national financial disgrace.
The auto industry needs to seriously revamp how it does business, and fix its problems from within. |
1. It was never mandated that the new vehicle had to be domestic.
2. The woes of industry can hardly be laid at the doorstep of the american domestic's as countries all over the world are assisting their home industries.
3. Revamping a business as the US government is doing to the US auto industry, in mandating it manufacture vehicles that the public doesn't want to purchase, will have its own repercussions. |
The EU Emissions Standards are pretty strict and they sell plenty of cars over there.
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Are you seriously suggesting that EU customers are buying American cars?
I can assure you that it's not happening in large numbers at all. |
I've seen plenty of Ford Focuses (Foci?...whatever...), Ford Fiestas, Opels, Dodge Neons, PT Cruisers and, Jeeps in Europe. |
That's funny, didn't consider the Focus or Fiesta to be American cars, after all, they actually go around corners without rolling and do more that 5 miles to the gallon. You really don't see too many Neons or Cruisers around (owners tend to get pointed at and laughed at). Jeeps are only bought by people who can't run to a Range Rover or a Shogun.
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02/03/2009 02:32:01 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
I understood that your interest in raising the fuel price (via increased taxes - per the Alchohol and Tobacco examples) was an attempt to curb use of lower milage vehicles (like trucks and SUVs) as is the intent to curb tobacco use and alchohol consumption. This "sin tax" is an attempt to penalize certain owners per your agenda that they are making poor choices - thus influencing their behavior. If this is not what you are proposing, then forgive my misunderstanding. |
No, the fact is that it will hit the drivers of inefficient vehicles the hardest in terms of absolute dollars/mile, but everyone would pay the same per gallon premium for fuel. I proposed $8/gallon because that's roughly the price of fuel in Europe and I don't see their society falling apart. Goods still get where they're going, people still get to work, the store, where ever they need to go. What you don't see is wasteful use of limited resources. |
The problem with the higher gas tax is that once you have changed the publics behavior and forced them into higher milage vehicles, then the State loses revenue and must then come up with either raising the gas tax even more or begin taxing the miles driven as Oregon is proposing. I suspect the Prius owners are pretty steamed over this plan. |
I suspect it depends on how that revenue is allocated as to whether the state becomes "addicted" to it. If it were directed to subsidies for automakers to do R&D on high efficiency vehicles. I think that would work out nicely. As more and more higher eff. vehicles became prevalent, the revenue stream would taper off. In essence the addiction would be leveraged to develop the cure.
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02/03/2009 02:33:55 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
That's funny, didn't consider the Focus or Fiesta to be American cars, after all, they actually go around corners without rolling and do more that 5 miles to the gallon. You really don't see too many Neons or Cruisers around (owners tend to get pointed at and laughed at). Jeeps are only bought by people who can't run to a Range Rover or a Shogun. |
Mitsubishi recall - Shogun |
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02/03/2009 04:06:48 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
That's funny, didn't consider the Focus or Fiesta to be American cars, after all, they actually go around corners without rolling and do more that 5 miles to the gallon. You really don't see too many Neons or Cruisers around (owners tend to get pointed at and laughed at). Jeeps are only bought by people who can't run to a Range Rover or a Shogun. |
It is all very incestuous. The better differentiating factor is probably where the cars are designed and for whom.
Ford's small cars are designed by and built for Ford Europe, a UK company (which until recently also owned Jaguar, Aston Martin, Volvo and Land Rover), owned by Ford Corp, the US company.
Chevrolets in the UK and Europe are largely rebadged Daewoo cars.
GM owns Vauxhall/Opel - which also has a degree of separation between its international cars (designed in the UK - Luton) and American cars.
Chrysler exists in the UK by virtue of the now defunct Daimler Chrysler Mercedes-Benz tie up (which also owned Jeep) - that's why Jeep, Chrysler and Mercs are sometimes sold out of the same lot. The occasional Chrysler seen on European roads is based on a Merc E-Class with a cheap interior and lots of gadgets.
Incidentally, most of these companies have been clients of mine at one point or another before I left private practice, where I advised them on various insolvency matters!
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02/03/2009 06:11:47 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Originally posted by Mr_Pants:
That's funny, didn't consider the Focus or Fiesta to be American cars, after all, they actually go around corners without rolling and do more that 5 miles to the gallon. You really don't see too many Neons or Cruisers around (owners tend to get pointed at and laughed at). Jeeps are only bought by people who can't run to a Range Rover or a Shogun. |
It is all very incestuous. The better differentiating factor is probably where the cars are designed and for whom.
Ford's small cars are designed by and built for Ford Europe, a UK company (which until recently also owned Jaguar, Aston Martin, Volvo and Land Rover), owned by Ford Corp, the US company.
Chevrolets in the UK and Europe are largely rebadged Daewoo cars.
GM owns Vauxhall/Opel - which also has a degree of separation between its international cars (designed in the UK - Luton) and American cars.
Chrysler exists in the UK by virtue of the now defunct Daimler Chrysler Mercedes-Benz tie up (which also owned Jeep) - that's why Jeep, Chrysler and Mercs are sometimes sold out of the same lot. The occasional Chrysler seen on European roads is based on a Merc E-Class with a cheap interior and lots of gadgets.
Incidentally, most of these companies have been clients of mine at one point or another before I left private practice, where I advised them on various insolvency matters! |
I can't really speak to the other brands, but the Focus, while designed by Ford Europe, is now one of Ford's most popular models in the US. My understanding was that it was designed for the US market and then brought ot the European market (maybe I have that backwards...) |
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02/03/2009 06:38:36 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Chrysler exists in the UK by virtue of the now defunct Daimler Chrysler Mercedes-Benz tie up (which also owned Jeep) - that's why Jeep, Chrysler and Mercs are sometimes sold out of the same lot. |
In the US, Mercedes are usually referred-to with the abbreviations MB or Benz, as "Merc" is too easily confused with the Ford's Mercury nameplate.
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02/03/2009 07:13:43 PM · #124 |
The current situation that the US automakers are in was already foretold in this book:
The Machine that changed the world
It was a 5 year study of automakers of all makes. It showed the managment differences between them. It wasn't too long ago that Toyota's worst performing factory was the NUMMI plant in California, course it made the list as one of the top GM factories. |
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02/04/2009 05:13:24 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I can't really speak to the other brands, but the Focus, while designed by Ford Europe, is now one of Ford's most popular models in the US. My understanding was that it was designed for the US market and then brought ot the European market (maybe I have that backwards...) |
It was one of Ford's first planned worldwide launches, with US variants launched a year or so after the European launch. It replaced the Escort, which was a European car later introduced successfully in the US. The irony of course being that EU mid-size cars are sold in the US as compacts!
The point remains that cars designed for the US market do not tend to travel beyond its shores: other countries have higher fuel prices and their roads are narrower with bends in them. Fuel efficiency, space efficiency and cornering have not traditionally been strongpoints in the US market - Toyota has proven that they do attract a US following: Detroit has been playing catch-up.
The biggest issue for me has always been the interiors - cars designed for the US tend to sacrifice quality in the interior finish for gadgets.
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