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02/02/2009 11:25:27 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why aren't you carrying on about how the government is infringing on your right to own heroin or your own 105mm howitzer? |
Its not part of Obama's stimulus legislation yet. |
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02/02/2009 11:37:13 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you reserve your Hummer for disaster relief then? |
Not in the winter. I actually enjoy driving to work. Don't get much use in the summer except to take the boat to the launch or hit some back country destination. The motorcycle gets more use when temps get above 50. Regardless of what vehicle I'm in - they are rarely above 65mph. 60mph is a pretty standard speed for me on the eway. I would think that Obama would like my kind of driving. Maybe I'll get nominated for some kind of a citizen of the year award or something. |
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02/02/2009 11:37:54 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why aren't you carrying on about how the government is infringing on your right to own heroin or your own 105mm howitzer? |
Its not part of Obama's stimulus legislation yet. |
Neither is raising gas prices to $8/gallon, but you've placed significant effort into the discussion of it all the same. |
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02/02/2009 11:40:15 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you reserve your Hummer for disaster relief then? |
Not in the winter. I actually enjoy driving to work. Don't get much use in the summer except to take the boat to the launch or hit some back country destination. The motorcycle gets more use when temps get above 50. Regardless of what vehicle I'm in - they are rarely above 65mph. 60mph is a pretty standard speed for me on the eway. I would think that Obama would like my kind of driving. Maybe I'll get nominated for some kind of a citizen of the year award or something. |
So, what percentage of the driving you do is for disaster relief? |
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02/02/2009 11:47:15 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Do you reserve your Hummer for disaster relief then? |
Not in the winter. I actually enjoy driving to work. Don't get much use in the summer except to take the boat to the launch or hit some back country destination. The motorcycle gets more use when temps get above 50. Regardless of what vehicle I'm in - they are rarely above 65mph. 60mph is a pretty standard speed for me on the eway. I would think that Obama would like my kind of driving. Maybe I'll get nominated for some kind of a citizen of the year award or something. |
So, what percentage of the driving you do is for disaster relief? |
Extremely small percentage - personally. Last winter had 2 days where the local hospital used vehicles for personnel support.
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02/02/2009 11:56:49 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why aren't you carrying on about how the government is infringing on your right to own heroin or your own 105mm howitzer? |
Its not part of Obama's stimulus legislation yet. |
Neither is raising gas prices to $8/gallon, but you've placed significant effort into the discussion of it all the same. |
Raising gas prices to $8/gallon was your iniative to raise revenue (taxes) on a particular group of the population, based on what you percieve to be a "sin" against society. Your defense in other threads of various "sins" of others, reads to me as this is an agenda item. An agenda against Michigan manufacturers.
ETA: further you proposed that vehicles should be available based on NEED, which you have yet to define. The basis of "need" is loaded with pitfalls. A slippery slope indeed.
Message edited by author 2009-02-02 12:01:23. |
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02/02/2009 12:10:31 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Raising gas prices to $8/gallon was your iniative to raise revenue (taxes) on a particular group of the population, based on what you percieve to be a "sin" against society. ...An agenda against Michigan manufacturers. |
Originally posted by Flash:
You mean the many models that get 30 mpg (like the HHR or even the Impala) and the fact that no other manufacturer has as many "Flex-fuel" vehicles on the road (several million at last count). |
Out of curiosity, how would raising the price of gas be an agenda against a company touting their product line's great gas mileage? |
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02/02/2009 12:19:36 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why aren't you carrying on about how the government is infringing on your right to own heroin or your own 105mm howitzer? |
Its not part of Obama's stimulus legislation yet. |
Neither is raising gas prices to $8/gallon, but you've placed significant effort into the discussion of it all the same. |
Raising gas prices to $8/gallon was your iniative to raise revenue (taxes) on a particular group of the population, based on what you percieve to be a "sin" against society. Your defense in other threads of various "sins" of others, reads to me as this is an agenda item. An agenda against Michigan manufacturers.
ETA: further you proposed that vehicles should be available based on NEED, which you have yet to define. The basis of "need" is loaded with pitfalls. A slippery slope indeed. |
No, please go back and re-read what I wrote. I proposed increasing the gas price to $8/gal for EVERYONE regardless of the vehicle they drive. At no time did I suggest that people not be allowed to drive whatever vehicle they choose.
I suggested that exceptions be made in the form of exemptions and/or subsidies for work vehicles used in certain industries. There's nothing new about such programs, things like farm subsidies have been ongoing for decades. |
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02/02/2009 12:47:33 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
Japanese, French, Swedish, Italian, German and English cars seem to be exported fairly readily world-wide, but American cars as a general rule don't seem to travel. Even most Ford cars are divided into Ford US and Ford Europe. |
Gee.....you don't suppose it's 'cause the ROW doesn't want them, do you?
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02/02/2009 01:06:41 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by dahkota:
Sorry - I forgot an 0. It should have been a 1500. Slammed for a typo... |
Well, if you feel it was a slam with the smiley at the end...
So....it's an F1500????
If you want to discuss the issue that's fine, and using your experiences as a reference is fine too, but when you state that you have a vehicle that's the model designation of one manufacturer, and the trim package of another, yes, I'll call you on it.
Excuse me for being accurate.
Originally posted by dahkota:
I would beg to differ with you with regard to toyota/honda/Nissan/Subaru quality, both my own experience and that of friends. Not being able to find someone to fix something has no relation to how often it needs to be fixed. |
I don't suppose those would be ones built here, would they?
You will find if you talk to people that know cars well that the Japanese offerings are better across the board.
That's the reason they have the market share that they do.
And yes, the fact that there aren't Japanese car electrical/electronics experts out there does mean exactly that. There really isn't a market to support them.
It's called supply & demand. If Japanese automotive electronics were as bad as GM's, there'd be plenty of places to take them. They really don't have electronics issues, it's that simple.......hence, few specialists.
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02/02/2009 01:15:48 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
They are building much better cars than they used to |
Originally posted by Flash:
We can agree after all. |
But why DON'T we build the best cars given our resources?
We evolve ONLY when forced to, "Good enough" seems to be the way we do things.
Everything that we do is generally 10+ years behind the rest of the world, some far longer than that.
How long after the rest of the world was using EFI, disc brakes, overhead cams, and rack & pinion steering did we get there?
We should be leading the industry, not grudgingly following along.
Why didn't we develop the ideas we had early, like V-6s, small aluminum V-8s, turbochargers, overhead cams, and transaxles when we tried them?
This was all technology that had actually made it into PRODUCTION in the '60s, yet wen we had issues, we dumped them instead of dealing with the issues.
All I'd like to see Detroit do is to take the lead like it should, police their own ranks, and make a good product.....and not just good, the BEST!
We can do it, but for whatever reasoning that entirely escapes me, we don't.
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02/02/2009 01:21:07 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Excuse me for being accurate. |
You seem to be in a mood today. A very angry one.
(...steps back slowly...)
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02/02/2009 01:22:03 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No, please go back and re-read what I wrote. I proposed increasing the gas price to $8/gal for EVERYONE regardless of the vehicle they drive. At no time did I suggest that people not be allowed to drive whatever vehicle they choose.
I suggested that exceptions be made in the form of exemptions and/or subsidies for work vehicles used in certain industries. There's nothing new about such programs, things like farm subsidies have been ongoing for decades. |
I understood that your interest in raising the fuel price (via increased taxes - per the Alchohol and Tobacco examples) was an attempt to curb use of lower milage vehicles (like trucks and SUVs) as is the intent to curb tobacco use and alchohol consumption. This "sin tax" is an attempt to penalize certain owners per your agenda that they are making poor choices - thus influencing their behavior. If this is not what you are proposing, then forgive my misunderstanding. |
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02/02/2009 01:39:18 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Excuse me for being accurate. |
Originally posted by dahkota:
You seem to be in a mood today. A very angry one. |
No, I'm frustrated because I'm trying to have a discussion with people on a subject that I made my life for over forty years, and you guys want to bring knives to a gunfight.
Then you get mad, pedantic, and/or call me names when I call you on it.
Ifyou guys would atually pay attention READ some of what I've written, you might realize that I know what I'm talking about.
Part of the reason I bailed on the industry is because it's going to come apart.....HARD. I found myself unable to keep up with the technology, as did some of the other sharp techs in this area, and I didn't want to be one of the casualties wen they started dropping like flies because they could no longer get accurate information or spport to repair cars outside the dealer network.
And that's what the manufacturers are doing......they're making sure that the information flow is slow, and expensive, giving them a captive market. The datastream updates in dealers range from 30-90 minutes EVERY DAY, and there is no way that an independent can keep up with that, especially since current info simply isn't available. It's proprietary.
So if there's an engine management update for your car's computer that will take care of that small driveability glitch that your two and a half year old car has, you HAVE to go to the dealer to get the update.
You guys ALL should be scared.......you're going to forced into a proprietary monopoly and you don't have a clue.
And then they'll do whatever they want, or the government will step in and run it......y'all want THAT?????
Take this for what it's worth to you......after forty years of working on my own cars, I will no longer touch one, and I won't drive one that isn't covered under the factory warranty/ factory extended warranty. If the manufacturer is no longer responsible for the pieces that break, I won't drive it.....I'll get another new one.
For many years, I was a go-to guy when you had problems that other shops couldn't fix....I took pride in that and I loved the challenges.
No more....
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02/02/2009 01:39:46 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
They are building much better cars than they used to |
Originally posted by Flash:
We can agree after all. |
But why DON'T we build the best cars given our resources?
We evolve ONLY when forced to, "Good enough" seems to be the way we do things.
Everything that we do is generally 10+ years behind the rest of the world, some far longer than that.
How long after the rest of the world was using EFI, disc brakes, overhead cams, and rack & pinion steering did we get there?
We should be leading the industry, not grudgingly following along.
Why didn't we develop the ideas we had early, like V-6s, small aluminum V-8s, turbochargers, overhead cams, and transaxles when we tried them?
This was all technology that had actually made it into PRODUCTION in the '60s, yet wen we had issues, we dumped them instead of dealing with the issues.
All I'd like to see Detroit do is to take the lead like it should, police their own ranks, and make a good product.....and not just good, the BEST!
We can do it, but for whatever reasoning that entirely escapes me, we don't. |
I have many many criticisms of the executive leadership from the 60's, 70's and 80's. My personal disgust of Roger Smith is pretty high. But since Wagoner and Lutz have been with GM, huge strides have occurred. GM has exciting designs again. They have entered world markets (China, India, Saudi Arabia) and have a respectable market share with products that appeal to their consumer base. GM has had a significant transformation in the last decade. More is to come. Ford lost 5 billion per the news reports. Nearly every auto manufacturer is receiving some kind of assistance from their home government. Canada is stepping up and protecting theirs. This world wide financial mess is not the result of GM, Ford and Chrysler mismanaging product portfolios 25-40 years ago. Obama does indeed have a platefull. But claiming that Detroit is not competitive - when they have provided family incomes to millions of americans, does a disservice to the path out of this. Sodding the National Mall, providing condom initiatives, or the host of other pork projects buried in the $825 billion stimulus package is not the correct answer. Getting manufacturing working again, getting local state and federal governments collecting payroll taxes from employed americans to address infrastructure needs - that is what we need. |
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02/02/2009 01:41:55 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
They are building much better cars than they used to |
Originally posted by Flash:
We can agree after all. |
But why DON'T we build the best cars given our resources?
We evolve ONLY when forced to, "Good enough" seems to be the way we do things.
Everything that we do is generally 10+ years behind the rest of the world, some far longer than that.
How long after the rest of the world was using EFI, disc brakes, overhead cams, and rack & pinion steering did we get there?
We should be leading the industry, not grudgingly following along.
Why didn't we develop the ideas we had early, like V-6s, small aluminum V-8s, turbochargers, overhead cams, and transaxles when we tried them?
This was all technology that had actually made it into PRODUCTION in the '60s, yet wen we had issues, we dumped them instead of dealing with the issues.
All I'd like to see Detroit do is to take the lead like it should, police their own ranks, and make a good product.....and not just good, the BEST!
We can do it, but for whatever reasoning that entirely escapes me, we don't. |
Two words: BIG OIL was in Detroit's back pocket. It was not in the oil company's best interest to have cars developed that use less fuel. |
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02/02/2009 01:48:55 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Flash:
But claiming that Detroit is not competitive - when they have provided family incomes to millions of americans, does a disservice to the path out of this. Sodding the National Mall, providing condom initiatives, or the host of other pork projects buried in the $825 billion stimulus package is not the correct answer. Getting manufacturing working again, getting local state and federal governments collecting payroll taxes from employed americans to address infrastructure needs - that is what we need. |
But Flash, LOOK at the wage & benefits packages of the average autoworker for the basically unskilled jobs!
That's a big issue! We aren't competitive as long as assembly line workers are paid more and have better benefits than the college professors who teach our children......the same ones who have Phds to do so, whereas the average autoworker has a high school diploma.
BTW, what's a condom initiative?
I'd much rather have my daughter excel in an education, and get a Phd than slam suspension parts on a chassis coming down the assembly line.......yet there's more job security in that......or at least there was.
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02/02/2009 01:52:12 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Flash:
Raising gas prices to $8/gallon was your iniative to raise revenue (taxes) on a particular group of the population, based on what you percieve to be a "sin" against society. ...An agenda against Michigan manufacturers. |
Originally posted by Flash:
You mean the many models that get 30 mpg (like the HHR or even the Impala) and the fact that no other manufacturer has as many "Flex-fuel" vehicles on the road (several million at last count). |
Out of curiosity, how would raising the price of gas be an agenda against a company touting their product line's great gas mileage? |
If that was all the company made - then it wouldn't be. But Spazmo's proposal is to penalize certain vehicle owners who do not meet some standard that he sets - per their "need". That is an agenda. No different than banning abortion or guns or certain books. These are agenda items. Banning a certain class of vehicle based upon a population segment's agenda of fuel economy - is simply forcing your will or ideals onto others. Lord knows we have had plenty of threads in rant over that. |
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02/02/2009 01:52:28 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Two words: BIG OIL was in Detroit's back pocket. It was not in the oil company's best interest to have cars developed that use less fuel. |
I've heard various iterations of that over the years......right along with the "Quashed 100mpg carburetor", but have never really seen the evidence to support it.
There's too much to be gained by the manufacturer by building more efficient cars.
I think it's more of a case of laziness & complacency.
Isn't it funny that now that we have really good computerization how we hae much more efficient, and powerful, cars that have terrific driveability as well?
"They" said it couldn't be done!
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02/02/2009 01:55:40 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
No, please go back and re-read what I wrote. I proposed increasing the gas price to $8/gal for EVERYONE regardless of the vehicle they drive. At no time did I suggest that people not be allowed to drive whatever vehicle they choose.
I suggested that exceptions be made in the form of exemptions and/or subsidies for work vehicles used in certain industries. There's nothing new about such programs, things like farm subsidies have been ongoing for decades. |
I understood that your interest in raising the fuel price (via increased taxes - per the Alchohol and Tobacco examples) was an attempt to curb use of lower milage vehicles (like trucks and SUVs) as is the intent to curb tobacco use and alchohol consumption. This "sin tax" is an attempt to penalize certain owners per your agenda that they are making poor choices - thus influencing their behavior. If this is not what you are proposing, then forgive my misunderstanding. |
No, the fact is that it will hit the drivers of inefficient vehicles the hardest in terms of absolute dollars/mile, but everyone would pay the same per gallon premium for fuel. I proposed $8/gallon because that's roughly the price of fuel in Europe and I don't see their society falling apart. Goods still get where they're going, people still get to work, the store, where ever they need to go. What you don't see is wasteful use of limited resources.
Message edited by author 2009-02-02 13:56:03. |
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02/02/2009 01:55:40 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
That's a big issue! We aren't competitive as long as assembly line workers are paid more and have better benefits than the college professors who teach our children......the same ones who have Phds to do so, whereas the average autoworker has a high school diploma. |
Are you anti-Union? Your President isn't. Do you know the hourly wage discrepancy between the domestics and the transplants? |
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02/02/2009 01:57:12 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
BTW, what's a condom initiative? |
A ways back I posted a CNN opinion article. Check there. |
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02/02/2009 01:58:53 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Two words: BIG OIL was in Detroit's back pocket. It was not in the oil company's best interest to have cars developed that use less fuel. |
I've heard various iterations of that over the years......right along with the "Quashed 100mpg carburetor", but have never really seen the evidence to support it.
There's too much to be gained by the manufacturer by building more efficient cars.
I think it's more of a case of laziness & complacency.
Isn't it funny that now that we have really good computerization how we hae much more efficient, and powerful, cars that have terrific driveability as well?
"They" said it couldn't be done! |
Now, to be fair, when the Japanese started exporting to North America they were exporting junk to compete with the NA junk. However, they learned from their mistakes and started producing much more reliable cars. What did the NA manufacturers do? Kept producing junk and then complained about the imports to get tariffs imposed. |
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02/02/2009 02:02:22 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Flash:
But claiming that Detroit is not competitive - when they have provided family incomes to millions of americans, does a disservice to the path out of this. Sodding the National Mall, providing condom initiatives, or the host of other pork projects buried in the $825 billion stimulus package is not the correct answer. Getting manufacturing working again, getting local state and federal governments collecting payroll taxes from employed americans to address infrastructure needs - that is what we need. |
But Flash, LOOK at the wage & benefits packages of the average autoworker for the basically unskilled jobs!
That's a big issue! We aren't competitive as long as assembly line workers are paid more and have better benefits than the college professors who teach our children......the same ones who have Phds to do so, whereas the average autoworker has a high school diploma.
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That's a falsehood.
The hourly wage difference between domestic and foreign autoworkers in the US is a dollar or two. Where the D3 are paying more per employee is in the pensions and healthcare costs. The D3 have to pay huge costs to their retirees, simply because they've been building cars here in the US for so much longer than the foreign automakers. It's a similar thing with healthcare. In the EU and Japan, those costs are not borne by the company, but rather by the government. Another way that the foreign automakers are subsidized by their home governments relative to the D3. |
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02/02/2009 02:03:48 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Flash:
Lets adopt a $1500 tax credit to anyone who buys a new car. That is a stimulus. |
No, that's another bad idea to bolster a national financial disgrace.
The auto industry needs to seriously revamp how it does business, and fix its problems from within. |
1. It was never mandated that the new vehicle had to be domestic.
2. The woes of industry can hardly be laid at the doorstep of the american domestic's as countries all over the world are assisting their home industries.
3. Revamping a business as the US government is doing to the US auto industry, in mandating it manufacture vehicles that the public doesn't want to purchase, will have its own repercussions. |
The EU Emissions Standards are pretty strict and they sell plenty of cars over there.
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Are you seriously suggesting that EU customers are buying American cars?
I can assure you that it's not happening in large numbers at all.
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