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DPChallenge Forums >> Challenge Results >> Voting based on liking, not challenge
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01/07/2009 04:03:03 AM · #1
Hello Everyone,

I'm not sure whether this has been discussed before or not. There are photos which ranked very high in the post challenge result, however, these photos do not meet the challenge. Many voters, in my opinion, seem to be drawn by the beauty of the post edited photos, and not judging whether it meets the challenge or not.

Just my opinion. Thanks.

Ang
01/07/2009 04:13:10 AM · #2
I thinks it's been discussed before, about every couple of weeks or so.

First of all a Challenge photo should meet the challenge, and secondly it should be well executed. Photos that do both should do well, photos that don't, shouldn't?

It would be nice to have a new set of rules:

Hard Rules: If it doesn't meet the challenge or can only meet the challenge with a laboured title, it will be DQ'd.

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 04:13:50.
01/07/2009 04:17:45 AM · #3
Problem with "hard rules" is that they kind of aren't. Often one person's interpretation of the challenge is far different from another's. It seems that speed voters sometimes skim through the images without really looking at what the photographer was trying to convey, voting down anything that doesn't meet their interpretation of the challenge theme. So to you, it might not meet the challenge, but to someone else it does. Which is why those "hard rules" aren't very effective. Personally, I like the diverse interpretations, though I do occasionally find myself scratching my head.
01/07/2009 04:20:09 AM · #4
I'm all for it, as long as I get to be the one that decides which photos meet the challenge. :)
01/07/2009 04:21:45 AM · #5
It's been discussed a gazillion times, yes. A major gulf in attitudes exists between people who vote challenge relevance as an on/off switch (if it meets the challenge at all, it's good to go) and those who vote challenge relevance on a scale (how "well" it meets the challenge or how "creatively" it meets the challenge is a major factor in their scoring).

There's something to be said for both perspectives. Those who take the second approach are inclined to view the challenges as "magazine cover" assignments, imagining that an editor is looking for cover shots for a magazine on the challenge topic. This approach leads to clearly "relevant" entries that, for the most part, are very obvious and predictable. Those who take the first approach tend to embrace more creative approaches to the topic, and we see a lot more "out of the box" entries in this group.

Then there's the whole issue of challenge "Topic" vs challenge "Description". The recently-completed "Transparency" challenge is a good example: based on the challenge topic/title, the blue and red ribbon shots are obvious winners, being technically extremely well executed and being obviously "about" transparency. However, if you read the challenge description you get a different story: Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject.

Based on that description both these ribbon winners are not really meeting the challenge, or only meeting it tenuously. Yet, based on the challenge TITLE, both can be considered to have met the challenge. We see this conflict between title and detailed description frequently, and it appears that a very large percentage of voters votes based on the challenge title; in fact, it appears that a lot of people SHOOT based on the title as well.

Since "not meeting the challenge" is not a DQable offense (nor should it be, IMO), there's not a heck of a lot to be done except to grin and bear it :-)

No disrespect is intended towards these ribbon winners, BTW: they both have figured out the formula and they are giving the voters exactly what they want.

R.
01/07/2009 04:32:02 AM · #6
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/970/120/750097.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/970/120/750097.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

And this meets the challenge topic AND the description, is very creative, and is very well executed. :-)
01/07/2009 04:35:39 AM · #7
Originally posted by Melethia:

' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/970/120/750097.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/970/120/750097.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

And this meets the challenge topic AND the description, is very creative, and is very well executed. :-)


Oh, you betcha!

But you know what? If the magazine were titled "Transparency", BOTH those other shots would be likely choices before this one. That's the fallacy in the "assignment" view of challenge topics; itrewards the in-your-face obvious and penalizes thoughtful, illuminating work. I'm frankly amazed that the Koi/woman image made it to the ribbons, though I'm absolutely delighted that it did.

R.

Incidentally, the red ribbon shot, "Sommelier", is more on-topic, description-wise, than the blue-ribbon shot, since it can be argued that the "subject" is the carafe and it is at least partially viewed through the pair of goblets.

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 04:38:28.
01/07/2009 04:41:22 AM · #8
Originally posted by Bear_Music:

if you read the challenge description you get a different story: Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject.

Based on that description both these ribbon winners are not really meeting the challenge, or only meeting it tenuously. Yet, based on the challenge TITLE, both can be considered to have met the challenge. We see this conflict between title and detailed description frequently, and it appears that a very large percentage of voters votes based on the challenge title; in fact, it appears that a lot of people SHOOT based on the title as well.


based on that challenge description, only the yellow ribbon winner is the real winner of this challenge.
01/07/2009 04:46:29 AM · #9
Something that is starting to become a bit of a bugbear with me is people who specialize in a particular
type of shot seemingly spending time thinking about how they can make the shot they like taking loosely fit
the challenge.

Come on people think about the challenge primarily and not the photograph you want to take, it can actually
be more challenging and more fun and certainly more interesting for those of us voting.

In my opinion if it doesn't meet the challenge then enter it in Free Study.

If you ordered a new PC online and what arrived was a really attractive well designed and manufactured calculator
would you be happy? If the answer is no then stop shoehorning


Message edited by author 2009-01-07 04:48:09.
01/07/2009 04:49:51 AM · #10
Originally posted by Lutchenko:

Something that is starting to become a bit of a bugbear with me is people who specialize in a particular
type of shot seemingly spending time thinking about how they can make the shot they like taking loosly fit
the challenge.

Come on people think about the challenge primarily and not the photograph you want to take, it can actualy
be more challenging and more fun and certainly more interesting for those of us voting.

In my opinion if it doesn't meet the challenge then enter it in Free Study.

If you ordered a new PC online and what arrived was a really attractive well designed and manufactured calculator
would you be happy? If the answer is no then stop shoehorning

Ah, but if you're after ribbons and the voters keep rewarding your shoehorned photos, then there's no incentive to stop. ;)
01/07/2009 04:51:13 AM · #11
Ah, but if you're after ribbons and the voters keep rewarding your shoehorned photos, then there's no incentive to stop. ;)

I couldn't agree more...
01/07/2009 04:52:43 AM · #12
Originally posted by Lutchenko:

Ah, but if you're after ribbons and the voters keep rewarding your shoehorned photos, then there's no incentive to stop. ;)

I couldn't agree more...


hear hear ;)
01/07/2009 04:59:54 AM · #13
Great topic. I face the dilemma (being a relative newbie) of voting in a current challenge where, I see that many of the excellent submissions do not meet the specific challenge guidelines. Do I primarily vote on the quality of the photo or the challenge specs? Based on previous forum discussions this is a very grey area and really needs some definite guidelines set down to make the decision making process a little more uniformed.
01/07/2009 05:00:49 AM · #14

I think it would be an interesting exercise for one week if the challenges were to be voted upon exclusively by the SC members as in that way I for one would expect meeting the challenge to play a big part in the score a photograph makes, as after all the SC members invest their time and effort thinking up the topics.
01/07/2009 05:03:17 AM · #15
Great topic. I face the dilemma (being a relative newbie) of voting in a current challenge where, I see that many of the excellent submissions do not meet the specific challenge guidelines. Do I primarily vote on the quality of the photo or the challenge specs? Based on previous forum discussions this is a very grey area and really needs some definite guidelines set down to make the decision making process a little more uniformed.

Personally I look to see if the image meets the challenge first.
If it, in my opinion, does not then the maximum I will allocate is a 5 regardless of quality.
01/07/2009 05:05:20 AM · #16
Originally posted by bcenu:

this is a very grey area and really needs some definite guidelines set down to make the decision making process a little more uniformed.


VOTE < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 >
MEET CHALLENGE < 1 2 3 4 5 >

;)
01/07/2009 05:09:02 AM · #17
Originally posted by Lutchenko:

I think it would be an interesting exercise for one week if the challenges were to be voted upon exclusively by the SC members as in that way I for one would expect meeting the challenge to play a big part in the score a photograph makes, as after all the SC members invest their time and effort thinking up the topics.

Actually, the topics are selected by the site owner, not the SC. And usually the topics come from suggestions made by users.
01/07/2009 05:18:22 AM · #18
I think it would be an interesting exercise for one week if the challenges were to be voted upon exclusively by the SC members as in that way I for one would expect meeting the challenge to play a big part in the score a photograph makes, as after all the SC members invest their time and effort thinking up the topics.
Actually, the topics are selected by the site owner, not the SC. And usually the topics come from suggestions made by users
.

Ok what I should have said is voted on by a panel of "experts"
01/07/2009 05:21:47 AM · #19
Originally posted by Lutchenko:

I think it would be an interesting exercise for one week if the challenges were to be voted upon exclusively by the SC members as in that way I for one would expect meeting the challenge to play a big part in the score a photograph makes, as after all the SC members invest their time and effort thinking up the topics.
Actually, the topics are selected by the site owner, not the SC. And usually the topics come from suggestions made by users
.

Ok what I should have said is voted on by a panel of "experts"

Only if I pick the experts, and I want to be able to swap 'em out if their votes get out of line. :D

01/07/2009 05:23:38 AM · #20

Only if I pick the experts, and I want to be able to swap 'em out if their votes get out of line. :D

Absolutely lol
01/07/2009 05:27:47 AM · #21
Originally posted by Lutchenko:

Something that is starting to become a bit of a bugbear with me is people who specialize in a particular type of shot seemingly spending time thinking about how they can make the shot they like taking loosely fit the challenge.


Here's a picture of a toilet, by using the title 'Lucky for me my building has a toilet' I can use it in the Lucky Challenge. Had the Challenge been 'Transparency' then it would have been titled 'Transparent Toilet Water'. Oh, hang on, there's a 'Night' challenge, it's now called 'Toilet at Night (taken indoors under tungsten lighting)'.

Phew, feel a bit better now!
01/07/2009 05:32:21 AM · #22

Here's a picture of a toilet, by using the title 'Lucky for me my building has a toilet' I can use it in the Lucky Challenge. Had the Challenge been 'Transparency' then it would have been titled 'Transparent Toilet Water'. Oh, hang on, there's a 'Night' challenge, it's now called 'Toilet at Night (taken indoors under tungsten lighting)'.

Phew, feel a bit better now! [/quote]


Hey put a suit on and stand next to it and you have Business Person
01/07/2009 05:56:31 AM · #23
DQ for a DNMC; or what the viewer perceive to be a DNMC, should and can never be introduced. Unless of course, the SC decides to do it in certain chalenges where it is applicable. The Rubber Ducky Challenge is one example where the SC made an extra rule stating that an entry failing to meet the criteria should be DQ'ed..

I guess all challenges could have been free study. But for me the challenge topic gives me an excuse for something to do and I think it's great fun. It will be up to the photographer to capture an attractive image that will meet the challenge for the majority of the users in order to attain as high score as possible.
And it will be up to the viewer to decide if an entry is a shoehorn, DNMC or right on the money. Not all viewers are able to see what the photographers are trying to convey and will understandably vote as if an image is DNMC although it might not be in the eyes and mind of the photographer.
01/07/2009 06:18:38 AM · #24
Hello Everyone,

Let me make myself clear that I've nothing against the top three photos in "Transparency III" challenge. They are all very beautiful. I just wish to understand the voting trend better. I'm new here :) The description for the challenge is "Create a photo in which a transparent or semi-transparent object is between you and your subject." Below is my opinion:

The blue ribbon winner is "Spilling out". The "transparent object" could be the bottle or the splash. The "you" is the photographer. Which one is the subject? Is it the bokeh? If the "subject" is the bottle, then I honestly feel that the composition is wrong as it doesn't show clearly. Voters like the shot, tones, composition, colours and cripsness.

The red ribbon winner is "Sommelier". The "transparent object" are the glasses. The "you" is the photographer. Which one is the "subject"? Is it the lighting/wall? If it's the lighting/wall, it's very unclear to me. Voters like the tone, lighting, smoothness and composition.

The yellow ribbon winner is "Bubbles". Which one is the "transparent object"? Is it the bubbles or the water? The "you" is the photographer. Which one is the subject? Is it the lady or the fish? If it's the lady, then the bubbles are the "transparent object". If it's the fish, then the water is the "transparent object". I assume that the lady is the "subject" since our eyes are drawn to her first. The winner said, "This was originally my concept for the Asia challenge, but after I got the set of photos onto my computer I realized this didn't say "Asia" as strong as I thought my challenge entry did. I thought I would submit this shot into the free study, but then I noticed the transparency challenge going on and realized it fit perfectly." Voters like the beautiful image, gorgeous model, its surreality and composition.

The above are just my analysis and my opinion.

Just me :)

Ang

01/07/2009 06:23:50 AM · #25
Not all viewers are able to see what the photographers are trying to convey and will understandably vote as if an image is DNMC although it might not be in the eyes and mind of the photographer.

This is very true although I guess the role of the photographer is to convey a message graphically and hence if the viewer is not able to determine this message maybe we as the photographer failed.
Another interesting point here is that we have a diverse range of people from differing cultures on DPC
and of course visual messaging may be interprested differently within different cultures if that makes sense.
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