should i keep pushing to get paid?

01/07/2009 03:43:39 AM · #1

Hey, haven't been on DPC for a while, but I'm trying to get back. Over the last few months I've been making most of my living off of my photography since I haven't found many other options. It's become surprisingly difficult to find good work here.

So I saw an ad for a startup magazine here and contacted them. It's not exactly the most fulfilling work as it focuses on night life, hot women, club scene, hot women, concerts, hot women, extreme sports, and occasionally hot women. But I like eating too, so what the heck? When I went to a big meeting they hosted at a local sports bar with all the potential writers and photogs I brought up the issue of rates. The magazine CEO then proceeded to hand me a bunch of lines about having my name on the photos, how people would be calling me for work after seeing my work in this magazine, and how much a 4-5 page spread would cost in other publications. Yes, he actually tried to tell me that photographers pay for spreads. At this point I mentioned that magazines usually hire photographers to do those spreads, at least to my knowledge.

So anyway, they are obviously reluctant to pay for photos. But I've been trying to gently press the issue. I think I should get paid if I shoot for them. But what do you guys think? Should I keep pressing them on it? I'm supposed to shoot a party for them Saturday, and I'm trying to get some agreement hammered out by then. But they don't move too quickly. Should I keep pressing the issue and just walk away if they refuse to pay? Or am I being overly snotty about this?

Covert_Oddity

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

01/07/2009 03:51:56 AM · #2

Sounds to me like they are relying on photographers trying to get a bit of exposure and have no intention of paying anyone. If there was no contract then I don't see they are in any way obliged to pay you. If you're not happy with the situation then tell then you want a contract of work with payment amounts on it. If they refuse then you don't shoot for them, unless you really do want the exposure in which case you can continue to do so and hope that the results do indeed get you some other work.

I'm not fortunate enough (or good enough) to make any money from my photography, so I'm sure there are better people out there to advise you, but that's pretty much how it seems to me.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

01/07/2009 03:57:45 AM · #3

Pay them to let them use your photos in their rag? I knew things in photo world were bad, but I didn't think they were quite that bad.

Just out of curiosity, how long do you think you can stay in business when you have to pay the boss to let you work? :D

Art Roflmao

Canon EOS-6D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/07/2009 04:14:50 AM · #4

"hot women...hot women...hot women...hot women..." - I think you are being paid. :P

Get an agreement in writing. Know what the terms are before you do anything for them.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S21, S21+, S21 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/07/2009 04:32:02 AM · #5

It's very common, and it's always been common. These startup magazines have a really, really hard time making any money for ANYbody, especially in the beginning. That includes their publishers. It would be NORMAL for these magazines to rely on free art and free copy. There is a plentiful supply of young, hungry writers and photographers who will do the work for the exposure.

Your basic approaches here are basically two: you are willing to accept this or you are not. Negotiation is almost certainly not an option at this stage. Bear in mind that if you stick with them and do an excellent job, you will contribute greatly to their success and when they DO become profitable (if they ever do) you will be justified in expecting to get compensated as a valued member of staff.

That's exactly how it went for me, in the late 70's, when I joined forces with a startup shelter magazine in the San Diego area, as an editor, writer, and photographer. I was getting paid within 6 months and the exposure was excellent as well. But more often nothing will ever come of it but exposure. And certainly, many times the people running these magazines turn out to be jackasses and will jettison you as soon as you dig your heels in and demand compensation.

So it goes. It's a cutthroat world out there. You just decide where youw ant to make your stand.

R.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

01/07/2009 04:42:24 AM · #6

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Working for free is a far cry from paying for the privilege. ;)

mikeee

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/07/2009 05:52:16 AM · #7

If there's no contract there's no recourse; you can do whatever you like.....

At the moment they have all the power. If you don't play their game, there are a lot of others who will. Go along to the party, take some excellent shots, meet some hot women, have a lot to eat/drink. Then, take the photos along to the mag stating that as the unpaid photographer you own the copyright and that, if they choose, they can use them for a fee. At this point YOU have the power.

p.s. don't forget to thank them for the access to free food/drink/hot women too!

imagemakersphoto

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM

01/07/2009 11:34:10 AM · #8

Unless you really want the exposure I would walk away (maybe run away). What is your time, gear, skill, post-processing, and so forth worth? How many people who are going to hire you really are going to look at the photo credits in this magazine?

As a start up they most likely have no money. Chances are that they fail (most magazines do). There will always be people to write and shoot for free. That is life. Businesses will always try to get what they want for free/lower cost. That is business.

If you really want to get published in the magazine then do it, but I would not expect much exposure from it. As far as paying to be published, that is backwards. If you are placing an ad then yes. If you are contributing to an artical then you should be compensated. After all they are using your images to make them money.

In any case I would get a usage agreement signed by them to ensure you own the copyrights to the image and that you can use the images other places and they can not re-use the images with out your permission.

Here are some industry links that may be of help to you.

//www.cradocfotosoftware.com/fotoQuote-Pro/index.html

//www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/

//zimberoff.com/photobyte.htm

//www.asmp.org/commerce/business_article_030.php

//www.asmp.org/commerce/employee_or_contractor.php

//www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/forms/index.php

//www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/licensing/index.php

//www.asmp.org/commerce/legal/copyright/

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

01/07/2009 12:02:20 PM · #9

Wow, this has been a great response, thank you!

I'll clarify one thing though. The CEO didn't actually tell me I'd have to pay for a spread in their magazine. He was just trying to make it sound like I was getting a great deal by not getting charged for it in their magazine. Regardless, it was still ridiculous that he even tried to say that.

Frankly, I can't see this magazine making it more than 6 months to a year. So I'm thinking I'll just get a contract with them, or walk away. Thanks again for all the great advice (and the links imagemakersphoto). I'll let you know if anything else interesting comes up with them.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

01/07/2009 01:15:36 PM · #10

Originally posted by WCpilot:

Well... If I had the free time and I were single, I'd go and shoot at least one party for the fun of it. Hot chicks love photographers, and covering a party for a magazine has got to be at least a guaranteed threesome. ;-)

virtuamike

Nikon D2X

Carl Zeiss 35mm ZF f/2.0 Distagon T

01/07/2009 02:41:47 PM · #11

Do they have any clients lined up? Do they have a plan to bring in advertising money? Or are they just dreaming?

01/07/2009 03:07:06 PM · #12

They've pulled most of it together. They apparently have advertising but need to build up some more.

Quite frankly, it seems they're just another scene mag in an area that is already saturated with free ones. This one is a higher quality print magazine, and isn't free. But I just don't think people will pay for it.

With that said, they have been doing a lot of local promotion, and their first issue is due out the end of this month. Though they did have us all brainstorming story ideas when we all met. So I honestly can't say exactly how prepared they are.