DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> The Gaza Strip media coverage
Pages:  
Showing posts 76 - 100 of 129, (reverse)
AuthorThread
01/09/2009 07:55:56 AM · #76
Originally posted by AlexSaberi:

of course the US. tut tut tut


I am so surprised!

It's funny when Russia fought with Georgia last year how the US was very vocal about the disproportionate use of force by Russia but is patting Israel on the back in this case. It's not hard to see where all the anger from militant groups arises from.
01/09/2009 08:05:23 AM · #77
Of course, now Israel sees this as a green light from the US and are ignoring the resolution.

All it would have taken to stop this carnage was a raised hand from Condoleezza Rice.
01/09/2009 08:58:03 AM · #78
I feel that neither side truly wants peace. Both sides have hated eachother since, well forever? Both sides raise their children to hate and the cycle continues and continues.

Frankly I am sick of the whole region. There has never been peace there and there will never be peace there, at least in my lifetime. And let's face it, the UN is a joke. Stop fighting or we'll say stop again.

Go ahead and flame me all you want but I am sick of it all. Politics, religion, war, hate.... I served for 22 years in the US Army and I am SO thankful that I was able to retire in 2005. I'm glad the US abstained from the UN vote. We should keep our nose out of more world affairs. Don't we have enough to fix in our own country?
01/09/2009 08:59:25 AM · #79
shame on that woman!! How do these people sleep at night? how
01/13/2009 07:45:46 PM · #80
Originally posted by david1707:

I'm glad the US abstained from the UN vote. We should keep our nose out of more world affairs. Don't we have enough to fix in our own country?


Like it or not, the US is attached to the same planet as the rest of us (just!). This was not so much an abstention but a silent veto.

According to this, Olmert told Bush to order Rice to abstain:

//www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231760642497&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Another article that makes some interesting points on the unswerving US support for Israel and the Rice volte face:

//www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/geoffrey-wheatcroft-how-israel-gets-away-with-murder-1299401.html

Message edited by author 2009-01-13 20:00:37.
01/13/2009 08:14:38 PM · #81
This thread is interesting from the stand point that many of the arguments made on both sides are the same arguments being made at the highest political and military levels and have been being made for decades.

The sad fact is this: This conflict will only end when the leaders of both sides (and their people) tire of the killing and decide to do something about it. And the fact that this has gone on for thousands of years despite the deaths of tens of thousands, and the maiming of hundreds of thousands more, gives me little hope that it will ever end.

People are too busy arguing about how this situation came to be, who started what, when things happened, who did what to who and God knows what else to really figure out what can be done to bring about a resolution to the conflict- not a truce, not a treaty, but a true resolution. Somehow these people need to learn to forget the past and live together.

It doesn't matter whose land this was 1,000 years ago, 100 years ago, 10 years ago, or even last week. What does matter are the people. Maybe someday leaders will realize this. Until then there will be death and suffering on both sides.
01/14/2009 09:53:45 AM · #82
This thread is indicative of people's inability to grasp anything beyond what they hear in their local news programs. How can they, though, with limited to no experience outside said sources of 'information'. Unfortunately, the biased media is no excuse for not knowing what's going on. We have (at least everybody reading this does) access to all kinds of information via this magic box with mouse and keyboard. It is all a click away.

These days I'm following BBC World News, as it stands smack in between Al Jazeera and US News outlets. I can hear views from both sides there, and more importantly for the news organizations, I can hear journalists ask provocative questions that are not layup questions intended to help the politicians re-re-recite their prepared statements.

Shallow, that's all I can say about most everyone I talk to. (except for a few honorable exceptions) And not because I disagree with their views, but because they have formed their views based on the headlines they've most recently viewed/heard.

I agree with vxpra that the solution is not in discussing how it came to be, but rather in how it can be made plausible to all sides. I'll leave it to your mental exercise to define 'plausible'. And do not parrot your favorite radio/tv station when answering this question (like, stop rocket fire or similar). Think in terms of people living there, and what would you like to have as a bare minimum in terms of security, and economy. And put those bare minimi in terms of that people, not your comfy chair, high-speed internet connection, and $$$$ of photo equipment on your side.

I write this as the # of dead reaches 1000+ people. Human lives. It is warm here where I sit, I'm going to work, and in the afternoon I'll spend time with my family chatting worry-free. But as I'm incapable of affecting anything from here (as my representative/elected government does not represent me but someone 5000 miles away from here), I'll just make sure that I acknowledge the suffering of all those people, and think about them every opportunity I get. Those are the people of Palestine and Israel, not only one or the other.

Peace with you all.
01/14/2009 12:09:52 PM · #83
A couple of interesting Op-Ed pieces in today's NY Times:

Thomas L. Friedman: Israel’s Goals in Gaza?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas
01/14/2009 01:30:15 PM · #84
Originally posted by GeneralE:

A couple of interesting Op-Ed pieces in today's NY Times:

Thomas L. Friedman: Israel’s Goals in Gaza?

Jeffrey Goldberg: Why Israel Can’t Make Peace With Hamas


What's interesting about those? I took the time to read them both, and see very little value (informational, or other) in them.
01/14/2009 05:14:50 PM · #85
Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Yeah they really want peace hey?
01/14/2009 05:41:17 PM · #86
Originally posted by AlexSaberi:

Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Yeah they really want peace hey?

Along those lines, Amy Goodman from Democracy Now recently aired some powerful interviews from a New York rally supporting Israel. It's clear that some people there would rather eliminate Palestinians than deal with them.

Originally posted by Democracy Now:


MAX BLUMENTHAL: So how many civilian casualties would it take before you questioned the attack?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 3: There is not a number involved.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 4: Nothing good is going to come out of it, unless they keep fighting all the way with this ’til they wipe them all out.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: Wipe them all out?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 4: Yeah, they got to go strong with this.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 5: There’s only one way to deal with a cancer. You burn it out or you remove it. And when people don’t want to talk and just want to destroy you and not allow you to live, there’s only one thing you can do.
...
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: Dude, it’s a repeat.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: It’s a repeat of the Holocaust?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: Yeah.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: How?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: We’re being persecuted again, for the trillionth time ever.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: So we’re fighting a second Nazi, war against the Nazis?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: Yeah, yeah.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 10: They want to kill all Jewish people.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: It’s a double of the Holocaust.
...
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 16: If Hamas could not differentiate between civil—civilians and army, we don’t need to either. I think we should go with all force and just go in and get them all.

01/14/2009 06:05:19 PM · #87
Originally posted by vxpra:

...Somehow these people need to learn to forget the past and live together.

It doesn't matter whose land this was 1,000 years ago, 100 years ago, 10 years ago, or even last week. What does matter are the people. Maybe someday leaders will realize this. Until then there will be death and suffering on both sides.

I'd like to see it come down to this. Just drop the history and move on from here. I agree that if they were capable of doing that it would be the quickest way to peace. I'd also suggest that such a position is more likely to be adopted by the Israeli side than the Palestinian side, even if Israel left the Palestinians to themselves, because the Palestinians are on the losing end of the stick.

Liken the "holy land" to a house and it would be as if the Palestinians were kicked out of "their" house and made to live in the back yard for a few decades. Now, I'm not suggesting that the Palestinians originally "owned" the house since it has gone back and forth so many times, I'm just suggesting that they're the latest ones to get kicked out of it, so I don't think they're going to be very amenable to just giving up and saying, "OK, OK, it's their house now. Let's all just get along."

So, how will the Palestinians ever be placated? I hope by having future US administrations in concert with global leadership that engages intelligently in the region and works with both sides to decrease violence until the current generation has passed, a new generation can be educated in a more secure environment, and a future generation can embrace the value of peace without the fresh wounds that incite cyclical revenge & retaliation. I'm not really that optimistic that they'll reach a lasting peace any time soon, but I think it's better to try than to neglect the conflict as the Bush administration has done for the past 8 years.

(ETA: so basically, I'm agreeing with you Jeff ;)

Message edited by author 2009-01-14 18:06:57.
01/15/2009 01:33:08 AM · #88
Originally posted by AlexSaberi:

Far more revealing are the words of Moshe Yaalon, then the Israeli Defense Forces chief of staff, in 2002: “The Palestinians must be made to understand in the deepest recesses of their consciousness that they are a defeated people.”

Yeah they really want peace hey?


Do you suppose Hamas wants peace? No, they want the destruction of the Zionist state and the return of land that they think is rightfully theirs.

Originally posted by JMart:

Along those lines, Amy Goodman from Democracy Now recently aired some powerful interviews from a New York rally supporting Israel. It's clear that some people there would rather eliminate Palestinians than deal with them.

[quote=Democracy Now]
MAX BLUMENTHAL: So how many civilian casualties would it take before you questioned the attack?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 3: There is not a number involved.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 4: Nothing good is going to come out of it, unless they keep fighting all the way with this ’til they wipe them all out.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: Wipe them all out?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 4: Yeah, they got to go strong with this.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 5: There’s only one way to deal with a cancer. You burn it out or you remove it. And when people don’t want to talk and just want to destroy you and not allow you to live, there’s only one thing you can do.
...
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: Dude, it’s a repeat.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: It’s a repeat of the Holocaust?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: Yeah.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: How?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: We’re being persecuted again, for the trillionth time ever.
MAX BLUMENTHAL: So we’re fighting a second Nazi, war against the Nazis?
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: Yeah, yeah.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 10: They want to kill all Jewish people.
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 13: It’s a double of the Holocaust.
...
ISRAEL SUPPORTER 16: If Hamas could not differentiate between civil—civilians and army, we don’t need to either. I think we should go with all force and just go in and get them all.


In all fairness, I think it's clear that some Palestinians, among others, would rather wipe out the Jews than deal with them, this happens to be quite common on both sides of the conflict. How many rallies have we seen with burning Israelie flags and signs demanding death to the zionist? Doesn't prove much other than there are radicals on both sides.

I would like to see some concessions made on both sides but sadly I don't believe that will happen or solve the problem.
01/15/2009 03:30:51 AM · #89
Originally posted by trevytrev:


In all fairness, I think it's clear that some Palestinians, among others, would rather wipe out the Jews than deal with them, this happens to be quite common on both sides of the conflict. How many rallies have we seen with burning Israelie flags and signs demanding death to the zionist? Doesn't prove much other than there are radicals on both sides.

I would like to see some concessions made on both sides but sadly I don't believe that will happen or solve the problem.


No argument here. Yes, there are individuals that want to wipe out the other side, sure. I just hope they're minority. And oh yes, one problem with that is - one side has the means to wipe out the other, while the opposite is not true.

Imagine if US would bomb the bejesus out of every country where US flag is set on fire?We can do that. But, there would be no countries left out there if we were to do that.

Now, Israel is well aware of its strength, and they use it precisely - trying to wage the psy-war on Palestinians. Kill a few dozen every day, to stretch their wits (defeat them mentally). However, it seems that the strategists on US/Israeli side have been miscalculating something: the war is won when you either defeat the enemy so that there are no living creatures left (I can't think of such war in the past) or until the enemy is beaten to submission, i.e. the enemy's position and state has deteriorated significantly that they decide to stop fighting and give up. However, in case of Palestinians, the starting point was so low on the human scale, that there is no space left for them to feel beaten. The level of desperation is so humongous that they are ready to kill themselves before surrendering. So, this campaign of waging war against the Palestinian people cannot possibly work. Unless they (Israeli) plan on completely ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip.
I'm not commenting on what the Palestinians might do to Israel, because they can't do squat. No (serious) weapons, no food, no nothing.

Yes, dialog is necessary here, and some smart diplomacy that appears to not be partial to either side. Showing interest in one side only, whichever side that may be, is not going to produce anything.

I hope it will end soon, for the sake of all people there.
01/15/2009 06:30:12 AM · #90
Originally posted by srdanz:

Originally posted by trevytrev:


In all fairness, I think it's clear that some Palestinians, among others, would rather wipe out the Jews than deal with them, this happens to be quite common on both sides of the conflict. How many rallies have we seen with burning Israelie flags and signs demanding death to the zionist? Doesn't prove much other than there are radicals on both sides.

I would like to see some concessions made on both sides but sadly I don't believe that will happen or solve the problem.


No argument here. Yes, there are individuals that want to wipe out the other side, sure. I just hope they're minority. And oh yes, one problem with that is - one side has the means to wipe out the other, while the opposite is not true.

Imagine if US would bomb the bejesus out of every country where US flag is set on fire?We can do that. But, there would be no countries left out there if we were to do that.

Now, Israel is well aware of its strength, and they use it precisely - trying to wage the psy-war on Palestinians. Kill a few dozen every day, to stretch their wits (defeat them mentally). However, it seems that the strategists on US/Israeli side have been miscalculating something: the war is won when you either defeat the enemy so that there are no living creatures left (I can't think of such war in the past) or until the enemy is beaten to submission, i.e. the enemy's position and state has deteriorated significantly that they decide to stop fighting and give up. However, in case of Palestinians, the starting point was so low on the human scale, that there is no space left for them to feel beaten. The level of desperation is so humongous that they are ready to kill themselves before surrendering. So, this campaign of waging war against the Palestinian people cannot possibly work. Unless they (Israeli) plan on completely ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip.
I'm not commenting on what the Palestinians might do to Israel, because they can't do squat. No (serious) weapons, no food, no nothing.

Yes, dialog is necessary here, and some smart diplomacy that appears to not be partial to either side. Showing interest in one side only, whichever side that may be, is not going to produce anything.

I hope it will end soon, for the sake of all people there.


You both make good points. I didn't mean to imply that the desire to wipe the opponent out was just on the Israel side, however, media coverage in the US would lead people to believe that Israel is far more civil, far less blood thirsty, and basically on the moral high ground. I think that's very debatable. I believe a case can be made that both sides have acted in highly immoral ways through at least recent history.

I agree with the points srdanz makes and I'd just add that not only is the Palestinian desperation based on already being beaten down to the point where they have little to lose (in their minds at least). There is also the matter of religion which diminishes the traction for peace negotiations. But now I have to run off to work. Happy Thursday everyone. ;)
01/15/2009 07:29:28 AM · #91
Originally posted by JMart:

You both make good points. I didn't mean to imply that the desire to wipe the opponent out was just on the Israel side, however, media coverage in the US would lead people to believe that Israel is far more civil, far less blood thirsty, and basically on the moral high ground. I think that's very debatable. I believe a case can be made that both sides have acted in highly immoral ways through at least recent history.

Given the limited news coming out of Gaza it's difficult to tell. There are a couple of reports I've read in the last few days, once of which uses the ICRC (the red cross) as it's source. This is interesting, as the red cross usually attempts to remain as neutral as possible during conflicts.

---

Let's start with this report. Israel shell a UN relief compound with white phosphorus; //news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm

The UN's relief agency, Unrwa, says part of its HQ in the city is on fire after being shelled by the Israelis. Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon expressed outrage at the attack, and said Israel had told him it was a grave mistake.

Speaking to reporters on the Israel-Gaza border, Unrwa spokesman Christopher Gunness said three of the agency's employees were hurt in the attack. He said the compound was hit by what Unrwa believed to be three white phosphorus shells, which are incendiary weapons used as a smoke screen.


<snip>

A boat carrying medical supplies to Gaza is surrounded by Israeli warships in international waters off Lebanon's southern coast and forced to return to Cyprus, according to charity Free Gaza

---

Now onto this one. Israel destroy a mothers and babies clinic; //news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7825215.stm

The charity Christian Aid says a clinic for mothers and babies in Gaza, which it funds along with the EU, has been destroyed in an Israeli air strike. The clinic, which was run by the Near East Council of Churches, was struck by a missile after a 15-minute warning was sent to the building's owners.

Christian Aid said the destroyed clinic, which was located in a two-storey building in the Shujaiya district of Gaza City, provided free primary healthcare to the local community, including mother and child clinics, neo-natal care, family planning.

Palestinian medical officials say more than 900 Palestinians have been killed since Israel's military offensive on the Gaza Strip began on 27 December. The UN says more than 40% of those killed have been women and children.

Israeli authorities say 13 Israelis have died, three of them civilians.


---

And this. Israelis 'shot at fleeing Gazans'; //news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7828536.stm

Claims have been received by the BBC and an Israeli human rights group that Israeli troops have fired on Gaza residents trying to escape the conflict area. Israel has strongly denied the allegations.

BBC journalists in Gaza and Israel have compiled detailed accounts of the claims. Some Palestinian civilians in Gaza say Israeli forces shot at them as they tried to leave their homes - in some cases bearing white flags.

One testimony heard by the BBC and human rights group B'tselem describes Israeli forces shooting a woman in the head after she stepped out of her house carrying a piece of white cloth, in response to an Israeli loudhailer announcement.

<snip>

The area, known to house Palestinian militants, has been the scene of some of the heaviest clashes during Israel's operation in Gaza. It is one of several that Palestinian Red Crescent convoys have been struggling to reach.

It was also the place where the ICRC said it found four small children who had waited with their dead mothers, apparently with no food or water, for four days last week.

Mr Shtewi said 17 children - aged between six weeks and 15 years, and six women, were in the house in the west of the neighbourhood.

"We have tried to leave the house during the three-hour humanitarian ceasefire, but we got shot at," he said.


---

How about; "Strike at Gaza school 'kills 40'" //news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7814054.stm

At least 40 people were killed and 55 injured when Israeli artillery shells landed outside a United Nations-run school in Gaza, UN officials have said. A number of children were among those who died when the al-Fakhura school in the Jabaliya refugee camp was hit, doctors at nearby hospitals said.

Israel said its soldiers had come under fire from militants inside the school.


---------

These are a few reports I've picked from the BBC News website. According to Palestinian medical authorities more than 900 Palestinians have been killed. The UN says more than 40% of those are women and children, that's over 400. I was unable to find many details about the 3 Israeli civilians killed.

Taking these reports at face value, attacking schools, maternity clinics and relief compounds, shooting civilians coming out of their homes, using white phosphorus in civilian areas, amounts to war crimes at the least. In my opinion 'Genocide' is more descriptive.

Message edited by author 2009-01-15 10:13:37.
01/15/2009 09:47:10 AM · #92
the jews of the jews. A disgrace!!!
01/15/2009 11:50:58 AM · #93
Hamas has chosen to use their civilians as shields, to place their women and children in the line of fire.

01/15/2009 12:03:02 PM · #94
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Hamas has chosen to use their civilians as shields, to place their women and children in the line of fire.


I agree that this is a terrible strategy but u obviously havent read the reasons why this happens. please read above for answers.

these poor people have no other answer, they live a life you could NEVER imagine.
01/15/2009 12:07:38 PM · #95
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Hamas has chosen to use their civilians as shields, to place their women and children in the line of fire.


Israel have been repeating that phrase over and over again from the start of their campaign. As each day passes, as more atrocities are committed by Israel, it sounds even more ridiculous.

I'm surprised that anyone has the nerve to attempt to defend Israel's murderous actions at this stage. They are indefensible.
01/15/2009 12:46:57 PM · #96
Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Hamas has chosen to use their civilians as shields, to place their women and children in the line of fire.


Israel have been repeating that phrase over and over again from the start of their campaign. As each day passes, as more atrocities are committed by Israel, it sounds even more ridiculous.

I'm surprised that anyone has the nerve to attempt to defend Israel's murderous actions at this stage. They are indefensible.


No, they may not be pleasant, but they are logical.

Hamas is the leader of the Palestinians. They are supported by the Palestinian people. They have sworn to wipe Israel from the earth. Since engaging Hamas directly is nearly impossible, the Israelis have shifted some of that pressure to the Palestinian civilians that are Hamas' supporters and shields.
01/15/2009 01:21:42 PM · #97
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Since engaging Hamas directly is nearly impossible, the Israelis have shifted some of that pressure to the Palestinian civilians that are Hamas' supporters and shields.

In your other post you said that civilians were getting killed because they were being used as shields by Hamas, and thus ending up in the Israelis line of fire (which is nonsense statement used by the military to justify civilian casualties; how many times have we heard it in Iraq and Afghanistan?)

But now you're saying that Israel have 'shifted pressure' to the civilians.

Which is it?
01/15/2009 04:00:14 PM · #98
Originally posted by JH:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Since engaging Hamas directly is nearly impossible, the Israelis have shifted some of that pressure to the Palestinian civilians that are Hamas' supporters and shields.

In your other post you said that civilians were getting killed because they were being used as shields by Hamas, and thus ending up in the Israelis line of fire (which is nonsense statement used by the military to justify civilian casualties; how many times have we heard it in Iraq and Afghanistan?)

But now you're saying that Israel have 'shifted pressure' to the civilians.

Which is it?


It's both.

Hamas uses the civilians, as shields. The same civilians that elected Hamas to power. Since they elected Hamas, they should be able to pressure Hamas. It's become obvious that simply killing members of Hamas will do nothing to affect a change in their policy of Israeli eradication and unwillingness of Hamas to conduct reasonable negotiations. So, by targeting Hamas fighters despite their civilian shields will move the pressure to change from Hamas members to civilians. Once the civilians get tired of dying, they will demand their leadership (Hamas) change course.

It's a logical action for the Israelis to take in order to affect a change. It's not pretty and I never said that I endorsed it, I just understand why.

01/15/2009 04:25:59 PM · #99
Originally posted by Spazmo99:


It's both.

Hamas uses the civilians, as shields. The same civilians that elected Hamas to power. Since they elected Hamas, they should be able to pressure Hamas. It's become obvious that simply killing members of Hamas will do nothing to affect a change in their policy of Israeli eradication and unwillingness of Hamas to conduct reasonable negotiations. So, by targeting Hamas fighters despite their civilian shields will move the pressure to change from Hamas members to civilians. Once the civilians get tired of dying, they will demand their leadership (Hamas) change course.

It's a logical action for the Israelis to take in order to affect a change. It's not pretty and I never said that I endorsed it, I just understand why.


I find one thing particularly annoying. Being a part of this so-called media-generated civilian shield for 2+ years myself (Sarajevo, '92-'94), what do you think it looks like? Who was allowed to go in Gaza to witness those 'shields'? Not the journalists you're listening to. Trust me, these are not shields. These are people living there.

Even more annoying is to hear people that claim that they 'understand' when all they do is take one side and blindly reject anything the other side claims. As noted before in this thread, try to see things outside your box. There is no pressure to change their will - these people are so oppressed that they no longer know what the life could look like. They will not get tired of dying - don't you understand what level of misery causes people to strap themselves with tnt and blow up?

The fundamental change in thinking is necessary. You apply false reasoning and try to find justification in day and night bombardment. It cannot finish the war by persuasion - that cannot happen. It can only end in total eradication of Gaza population or in some kind of diplomatic agreement. And the longer it lasts, the more people die, the harder will it be to achieve this diplomatic solution.

I hope you will try to understand this alternative point of view instead of trying to blindly push one side. I know that I read both sides' news, listened to Kneset members talk on TV as well as UN and ICRC reports. I really sympathize with both *civilian* sides here as they are majority that hurts the most.
01/15/2009 04:40:06 PM · #100
Originally posted by srdanz:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


It's both.

Hamas uses the civilians, as shields. The same civilians that elected Hamas to power. Since they elected Hamas, they should be able to pressure Hamas. It's become obvious that simply killing members of Hamas will do nothing to affect a change in their policy of Israeli eradication and unwillingness of Hamas to conduct reasonable negotiations. So, by targeting Hamas fighters despite their civilian shields will move the pressure to change from Hamas members to civilians. Once the civilians get tired of dying, they will demand their leadership (Hamas) change course.

It's a logical action for the Israelis to take in order to affect a change. It's not pretty and I never said that I endorsed it, I just understand why.


I find one thing particularly annoying. Being a part of this so-called media-generated civilian shield for 2+ years myself (Sarajevo, '92-'94), what do you think it looks like? Who was allowed to go in Gaza to witness those 'shields'? Not the journalists you're listening to. Trust me, these are not shields. These are people living there.

Even more annoying is to hear people that claim that they 'understand' when all they do is take one side and blindly reject anything the other side claims. As noted before in this thread, try to see things outside your box. There is no pressure to change their will - these people are so oppressed that they no longer know what the life could look like. They will not get tired of dying - don't you understand what level of misery causes people to strap themselves with tnt and blow up?

The fundamental change in thinking is necessary. You apply false reasoning and try to find justification in day and night bombardment. It cannot finish the war by persuasion - that cannot happen. It can only end in total eradication of Gaza population or in some kind of diplomatic agreement. And the longer it lasts, the more people die, the harder will it be to achieve this diplomatic solution.

I hope you will try to understand this alternative point of view instead of trying to blindly push one side. I know that I read both sides' news, listened to Kneset members talk on TV as well as UN and ICRC reports. I really sympathize with both *civilian* sides here as they are majority that hurts the most.


When I say I understand, I do not mean that I agree with what one side or the other is doing. I simply understand the reasoning behind their strategy.

On the Palestinian side, Hamas has a different strategy, and I understand their reasoning too. They're too weak to directly engage the Israeli military head to head, so they have to use guerilla tactics. Complicating that is the seige mentality of those who elected them. Hamas has also aligned themselves with a POV that the only path to peace is by killing the Israelis to back down and negotiate on a reasonable level would mean abandoning that position. Further complicating this facet of the conflict is Hamas' relationship with Hezbollah and other similar groups.

The one thing I don't understand, and it's pretty clear that no one else does either, is how to reasonably resolve the conflict without eradication of one side or the other.
Pages:  
Current Server Time: 07/17/2019 04:36:48 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2019 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Proudly hosted by Sargasso Networks. Current Server Time: 07/17/2019 04:36:48 PM EDT.