DPChallenge: A Digital Photography Contest You are not logged in. (log in or register
 

DPChallenge Forums >> Rant >> The Gaza Strip media coverage
Pages:  
Showing posts 26 - 50 of 129, (reverse)
AuthorThread
01/07/2009 12:57:45 PM · #26
Originally posted by dd1989:

Since 2002 only 17 people have been killed by the rocket attacks from Hamas - shall we count up the thousands who have died as a direct result of the Israelis blocking the trade routes?

I doubt that the (relatively) low Israeli casualty rate is a result of a lack of desire on the part of Hamas to inflict maximum harm.

If one state desires to influence the actions of another, it seems there are two major methods in play these days: either an economic blockade to force the state to change its policies to protect its people from further privation, or bomb the s**t out of them until they concede. If you have a (practical) third strategy which will get Hamas to stop attacking their neighbor state, I'm sure there are many world leaders ready to suggest it; unfortunately, I do not.

It is Hamas, not Israel, which has a official policy of genocide. How would you propose negotiating with someone whose stated objective is to kill you?
01/07/2009 01:01:08 PM · #27
Originally posted by JMart:

I care that there are people alive today that were forcibly removed from their homes in a way that should not be acceptable to modern people. Now they are being subjected to genocidal attacks. That's where I have a problem with what Israel is doing.

Every time a country builds a dam or a freeway people are "forcibly removed from their homes" -- it is called "eminent domain" and is a well-recognized legal principle.

How is what Israel doing "genocidal?" Israel, believe it or not, takes pains to avoid civilian casualties. However, when soldiers stash weapons or fire rockets from a school or mosque, there are few options for countering such actions which do not risk non-combatant deaths.

Tell Hamas to quit hiding behind their women's burkas and the civilian casualty rate will drop.

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 13:04:21.
01/07/2009 01:17:25 PM · #28
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by JMart:

I care that there are people alive today that were forcibly removed from their homes in a way that should not be acceptable to modern people. Now they are being subjected to genocidal attacks. That's where I have a problem with what Israel is doing.

Every time a country builds a dam or a freeway people are "forcibly removed from their homes" -- it is called "eminent domain" and is a well-recognized legal principle.

It's a US legal principle that does not apply to international politics. Also, if my home is acquired through eminent domain I will get reimbursed for my losses and, as a citizen, I will have the benefit of whatever public work is being erected. What do the Palestinians get? Killing more Palestinians may silence them in the near term, but I believe Israel and the western nations supporting Israel, are just building up the next generation of radical suicide bombers.

I'm curious why some of you can't see the Palestinian point of view. If people are forcibly removed from your land we should expect them to fight back. Thanks to western support of Isreal, Palestinians have no chance of fighting back politically or militarily, so they are left to lobbing rockets and sacrificing suicide bombers. They are desperate because they have no way to get back what they lost. I'm not supportive of rocket attacks or suicide bombers, but I'm sure as hell not going to say that it's ok for Israel to kill Palestinians because they can do it with a formal military or because they already have the upper hand, so they don't have to make a big deal about wanting Palestine to not exist. Keep in mind, many Israeli's don't want Palestine to exist and they did not want to formally recognize Palestine. If Israel had its back to the wall like the Palestinians do now you can bet that they would be fighting for their existence.
01/07/2009 01:20:38 PM · #29
Originally posted by GeneralE:


How is what Israel doing "genocidal?" Israel, believe it or not, takes pains to avoid civilian casualties. However, when soldiers stash weapons or fire rockets from a school or mosque, there are few options for countering such actions which do not risk non-combatant deaths.

Tell Hamas to quit hiding behind their women's burkas and the civilian casualty rate will drop.

Options for not risking non-combatant deaths: #1) Don't over-react and invade the people you have been oppressing when they make feeble attempts to resist you.
01/07/2009 01:22:24 PM · #30
Originally posted by JMart:

Who exactly do you want me to give my land to? My ancestors were not here at the time of that genocide and various native American tribes have since reached peaceful agreements with the US government. This is not the case in Gaza. People who were removed by force from their homes are still alive today and Israel is taking a pound of flesh from the Palestinians for every scratch they manage to inflict upon Israelis. I'm no fan of Hamas either, but it seems to me that Palestinians keep getting the extremely bad end of the stick time and time again.



I suggest you find the closest Native American tribe and deed your property to them.

At one time it wasn't the case in North America either, maybe you need an American History refresher course.

What does it say about the Palestinians that they're stupid enough to engage the Israelis, knowing that the Israeli response will be overwhelming? Hamas does it to turn their own population into cannon fodder in order to gain sympathy. If they really gave a damn about their people, they'd come out from hiding behind their women and children, seek negotiation with Israel, then come to the table willing to compromise and be unwilling to walk away without a solution.
01/07/2009 01:33:57 PM · #31
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by JMart:

Who exactly do you want me to give my land to? My ancestors were not here at the time of that genocide and various native American tribes have since reached peaceful agreements with the US government. This is not the case in Gaza. People who were removed by force from their homes are still alive today and Israel is taking a pound of flesh from the Palestinians for every scratch they manage to inflict upon Israelis. I'm no fan of Hamas either, but it seems to me that Palestinians keep getting the extremely bad end of the stick time and time again.



I suggest you find the closest Native American tribe and deed your property to them.

At one time it wasn't the case in North America either, maybe you need an American History refresher course.

What does it say about the Palestinians that they're stupid enough to engage the Israelis, knowing that the Israeli response will be overwhelming? Hamas does it to turn their own population into cannon fodder in order to gain sympathy. If they really gave a damn about their people, they'd come out from hiding behind their women and children, seek negotiation with Israel, then come to the table willing to compromise and be unwilling to walk away without a solution.

Spazmo, I really suggest you actually read what I wrote before you respond. I already responded to the native American straw man above. By the way, I happen to have native American blood in my family, so perhaps you should give me your house.

What do you think would happen if Hamas did as you suggest above? They would be imprisoned or killed by the Israelis. By engaging the Israelis it tells me that Palestine is extremely desperate and they feel they have been wronged severely by the annexation of their land to create Israel. Just to be clear since you have trouble reading what I write, I know Israel has occupied that land in the past, I care about who occupied it within more recent history because those are the people who have been and are alive to be wronged.

There is no good solution as far as I can see, so sue me if I get pissed when the group that clearly has the upper hand smashes it down on a mostly helpless population.
01/07/2009 01:41:26 PM · #32
Originally posted by JMart:

There is no good solution as far as I can see, so sue me if I get pissed when the group that clearly has the upper hand smashes it down on a mostly helpless population.

If Hamas had nuclear weapons, do you think they'd use them?

Your assertion regarding negotiations is total -- and totally unfounded IMO -- speculation. Israel has negotiated with the Palestinians on numerous occasions -- they simply require that it be done while they are not under active attack.
01/07/2009 02:00:16 PM · #33
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by JMart:

There is no good solution as far as I can see, so sue me if I get pissed when the group that clearly has the upper hand smashes it down on a mostly helpless population.

If Hamas had nuclear weapons, do you think they'd use them?

Your assertion regarding negotiations is total -- and totally unfounded IMO -- speculation. Israel has negotiated with the Palestinians on numerous occasions -- they simply require that it be done while they are not under active attack.

I'm not sure if Hamas would use nukes since they would have to balance their desire to destroy Israel with their desire to live in that land.

I'm in good company about there being no good solution for now since no world leader has managed to find a solution both sides can agree to. They both want the same bit of land and both believe that it was given to them by God. I'd call that an irreconcilable difference. My prediction is that tensions will continue like this for a long time to come and that they will eventually live side by side with something like the current boarders after the current generation has died away and the younger generations gain some distance from the wrongs of the past. Israel acting heavy handedly with Palestine will only make that day further away. If westerners want to deal with Hamas then they should do so with covert operations and by gaining good will through humanitarian efforts with non-Hamas Palestinians. Running the military through Gaza only opens fresh wounds that young Palestinians will remember for a long time, and it will increase the Palestinian support of Hamas.

It very well may be that you are right and Israel will bring peace about by forcibly removing Hamas no matter what the cost. I just don't see how it does anything but make Hamas or the next Hamas-like organization more entrenched.
01/07/2009 02:05:35 PM · #34
Originally posted by AlexSaberi:

actually the ceasefire was broken by israel.


Really? Why don't you explain to me how Israel broke the ceasefire? Seems I noticed there were several hundred rockets fired into Israel from Gaza until finally Israel responded to the continuous violation of the ceasefire. But maybe this was all colored against Hamas by the press. So educate me, please.
01/07/2009 02:18:12 PM · #35
It's a sad situation that will never go away. It existed for 2000 years. Everyone wants the same holy ground and for some reason people can't share. It's like that here (the US) England started it, took it over from Indians, we broke free, and took over more of it from American Indians, and now the American Indians want it back. Occupation is 9/10s of the law. The stronger will survive...and the ones with stronger friends. Is it right? No. But, for example, it's my house now...and no one will take it from me.
01/07/2009 03:08:34 PM · #36
Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by JMart:

Who exactly do you want me to give my land to? My ancestors were not here at the time of that genocide and various native American tribes have since reached peaceful agreements with the US government. This is not the case in Gaza. People who were removed by force from their homes are still alive today and Israel is taking a pound of flesh from the Palestinians for every scratch they manage to inflict upon Israelis. I'm no fan of Hamas either, but it seems to me that Palestinians keep getting the extremely bad end of the stick time and time again.



I suggest you find the closest Native American tribe and deed your property to them.

At one time it wasn't the case in North America either, maybe you need an American History refresher course.

What does it say about the Palestinians that they're stupid enough to engage the Israelis, knowing that the Israeli response will be overwhelming? Hamas does it to turn their own population into cannon fodder in order to gain sympathy. If they really gave a damn about their people, they'd come out from hiding behind their women and children, seek negotiation with Israel, then come to the table willing to compromise and be unwilling to walk away without a solution.

Spazmo, I really suggest you actually read what I wrote before you respond. I already responded to the native American straw man above. By the way, I happen to have native American blood in my family, so perhaps you should give me your house.

What do you think would happen if Hamas did as you suggest above? They would be imprisoned or killed by the Israelis. By engaging the Israelis it tells me that Palestine is extremely desperate and they feel they have been wronged severely by the annexation of their land to create Israel. Just to be clear since you have trouble reading what I write, I know Israel has occupied that land in the past, I care about who occupied it within more recent history because those are the people who have been and are alive to be wronged.

There is no good solution as far as I can see, so sue me if I get pissed when the group that clearly has the upper hand smashes it down on a mostly helpless population.


If Hamas did as I suggested, they'd be welcome at the negotiating table.

By engaging Israel while hiding behind their mothers and children, it tells me that they don't care about their people, that they look at the deaths of their women and children as a way to gain sympathy for their cause. It's obviously worked with you.

If we're going to ignoremost of history and only focus on recent history, how recent do you suggest as an appropriate time period for you to consider? 100 years, 50 years? 5 years? 6 months? a week? If being alive and being wronged are criteria for your sympathy, where is your outrage over the treatment of the Jews. I'm sure there are plenty of survivors from the pograms and state sanctioned anti-semitism of the 20th century, though I'd wager that many more Jews suffered and died than Palestinians have.

01/07/2009 03:49:38 PM · #37
Originally posted by Spazmo99:


If Hamas did as I suggested, they'd be welcome at the negotiating table.

By engaging Israel while hiding behind their mothers and children, it tells me that they don't care about their people, that they look at the deaths of their women and children as a way to gain sympathy for their cause. It's obviously worked with you.

If we're going to ignoremost of history and only focus on recent history, how recent do you suggest as an appropriate time period for you to consider? 100 years, 50 years? 5 years? 6 months? a week? If being alive and being wronged are criteria for your sympathy, where is your outrage over the treatment of the Jews. I'm sure there are plenty of survivors from the pograms and state sanctioned anti-semitism of the 20th century, though I'd wager that many more Jews suffered and died than Palestinians have.


Why is it that you keep implying that I have a double standard regarding other non-related issues when you clearly have no idea who I am?!? You attack me with assumptions about how I feel about native Americans without knowing anything about my heritage or ethnicity other than that I have enough "white" genes that you can see it in my profile pic. You accused me of not being outraged about the treatment of Jews in other horrible places and times in history when it has not been part of the discussion and you really have no idea who I am or what my stance on those other topics is. You accuse me of being ignorant about history because I talked about events that have happened within recent generations without bringing up millennia old history. Then you accused me of not knowing American history because you neglected to read previous posts where native Americans had already been discussed.

I'm frankly sick of your name calling and I'm sick of your slash and burn tactics of using logical fallacies & personal attacks against me. Your style of argument does more to alienate people like me than to have discussions with them.

Just to be sure I'm not mischaracterized; I would certainly defend the Jews just as readily as the Palestinians if the tables were turned. They aren't. Yes, the Jewish holocaust was an unimaginable tragedy and I REALLY resent your insinuation that I might somehow be turning a blind eye to it or have no outrage for what happened in WWII. As it happens, I wasn't even alive then, so forgive me for not protesting when it occurred. Are you suggesting that the holocaust gave the world the right to displace the people of Palestine, killing many of them in the wars that followed as they tried to defend themselves? Palestinians are not just blood-thirsty people with a blind hatred. There are serious and complicated reasons these two sides hate eachother. Failing to recognize that simple fact is one of the great impediments to any reconciliation.
01/07/2009 04:29:08 PM · #38
America has to be taken out of any solution or brokering of peace. the Israel lobby in the senate makes a mockery of any justice.

Its like a fight between to people, and the referee is best mates and has a vested interest in one of them.
01/07/2009 04:36:36 PM · #39
Good luck finding a neutral party to "referee" this one ...
01/07/2009 04:42:28 PM · #40
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Good luck finding a neutral party to "referee" this one ...


sure it is difficult.

Great article here by an ex Israeli army officer

Guardian Newspaper
01/07/2009 04:56:37 PM · #41
Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


If Hamas did as I suggested, they'd be welcome at the negotiating table.

By engaging Israel while hiding behind their mothers and children, it tells me that they don't care about their people, that they look at the deaths of their women and children as a way to gain sympathy for their cause. It's obviously worked with you.

If we're going to ignoremost of history and only focus on recent history, how recent do you suggest as an appropriate time period for you to consider? 100 years, 50 years? 5 years? 6 months? a week? If being alive and being wronged are criteria for your sympathy, where is your outrage over the treatment of the Jews. I'm sure there are plenty of survivors from the pograms and state sanctioned anti-semitism of the 20th century, though I'd wager that many more Jews suffered and died than Palestinians have.


Why is it that you keep implying that I have a double standard regarding other non-related issues when you clearly have no idea who I am?!? You attack me with assumptions about how I feel about native Americans without knowing anything about my heritage or ethnicity other than that I have enough "white" genes that you can see it in my profile pic. You accused me of not being outraged about the treatment of Jews in other horrible places and times in history when it has not been part of the discussion and you really have no idea who I am or what my stance on those other topics is. You accuse me of being ignorant about history because I talked about events that have happened within recent generations without bringing up millennia old history. Then you accused me of not knowing American history because you neglected to read previous posts where native Americans had already been discussed.

I'm frankly sick of your name calling and I'm sick of your slash and burn tactics of using logical fallacies & personal attacks against me. Your style of argument does more to alienate people like me than to have discussions with them.

Just to be sure I'm not mischaracterized; I would certainly defend the Jews just as readily as the Palestinians if the tables were turned. They aren't. Yes, the Jewish holocaust was an unimaginable tragedy and I REALLY resent your insinuation that I might somehow be turning a blind eye to it or have no outrage for what happened in WWII. As it happens, I wasn't even alive then, so forgive me for not protesting when it occurred. Are you suggesting that the holocaust gave the world the right to displace the people of Palestine, killing many of them in the wars that followed as they tried to defend themselves? Palestinians are not just blood-thirsty people with a blind hatred. There are serious and complicated reasons these two sides hate eachother. Failing to recognize that simple fact is one of the great impediments to any reconciliation.


Where did I call you a name? Personal attacks...really? If you take me posting my disagreement with your opinions as posted or questioning things you've posted as "facts" as a personal attack, I really can't help you there.

Where did I not include the relevant sections of your post? And, you're right, I don't know you, I only know what you've posted. Don't expect me to read your mind. How arrogant of you to assume that I looked at your picture and assumed anything about you. I only now looked at your profile.

You were the one who suggested that only recent history was relevant. I only asked how recent was necessary for history to be considered relevant by you. From what I can tell, it's anytime after you became socially aware. You should be aware that certain conflicts between groups transcend generations. Take the conflict between the Sunni and the Shiite Muslims for example or the inter-tribal conflicts in Afghanistan. They may hate each other for one great-great grandfather killing the other great-great grandfather. You may say that's irrelevant or otherwise dismiss it, but those kinds of things are certainly not irrelevant to the people involved on either side.

You should also note that I did not mention WWII or the Holocaust with respect to anti-semitism and pogroms directed at eliminating Jews. While the Nazi Holocaust was the most well-known and extreme case, such actions were going on throughout Europe before and after WWII.

Originally posted by JMart:

Are you suggesting that the holocaust gave the world the right to displace the people of Palestine, killing many of them in the wars that followed as they tried to defend themselves?


No, the holocaust did nothing of the sort. The Jews were well established in the area long before then. Do you know the history of the creation of Israel? UNSCOP and the UN partition plan for Palestine? The fact that the Arabs were the ones who promised to greet the establishment of any Jewish state with war and were, in fact the aggressors once the British left? And that the other wars in the interim have been largely due to Arab aggression?

Originally posted by JMart:

Palestinians are not just blood-thirsty people with a blind hatred. There are serious and complicated reasons these two sides hate eachother. Failing to recognize that simple fact is one of the great impediments to any reconciliation.


Exactly, neither are the Israelis. You recognize that there are serious and complicated reasons behind the conflict and these reasons reach back across millenia, yet you only wish to consider recent history in resolving the conflict. That just doesn't work.
01/07/2009 05:19:28 PM · #42
Originally posted by AlexSaberi:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Good luck finding a neutral party to "referee" this one ...


sure it is difficult.

Great article here by an ex Israeli army officer

Guardian Newspaper

Thanks for the informative article Alex. I'll certainly share this one.
01/07/2009 05:52:42 PM · #43
GeneralE, I usually see eye to eye with you on issues here, but this time not.

Is this justified?
' . substr('//www.shaztastic.com/web/white_phosphorus_in_gaza.jpg', strrpos('//www.shaztastic.com/web/white_phosphorus_in_gaza.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Using white phosphorus scatter bombs in a densely populated city of civilians?

How in the fuck is this justified?

It blows my mind how you people back Israel's overly aggressive use of force.

Should I start posting hundreds of pictures of dead and maimed children from American made bombs being dropped by Israel on poor brown people?

//www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80720&sectionid=351020202

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 17:53:04.
01/07/2009 05:54:30 PM · #44
Originally posted by Spazmo99:


...To claim that Israel is somehow an ancestral home exclusive to the Palestinians is ignorant of the area's history.

I never made such a claim. You were just using a straw man to imply that I'm ignorant.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


...maybe you need an American History refresher course.

Again, you set up a straw man to suggest I'm ignorant of US history.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


...If being alive and being wronged are criteria for your sympathy, where is your outrage over the treatment of the Jews. I'm sure there are plenty of survivors from the pograms and state sanctioned anti-semitism of the 20th century, though I'd wager that many more Jews suffered and died than Palestinians have.

Again, you set up a straw man and implied that I'm insensitive to Jewish suffering.

These are not arguments you used, they're personal attacks. I'm done talking with you now.
01/07/2009 07:14:36 PM · #45
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

If Hamas did as I suggested, they'd be welcome at the negotiating table.


Israel has repeatedly refused to negotiate with Hamas - so I very much doubt that. Unless, are you suggesting that the negotiations should take the form of surrender of all claims by Hamas? Would you still call those negotiations?

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

By engaging Israel while hiding behind their mothers and children, it tells me that they don't care about their people, that they look at the deaths of their women and children as a way to gain sympathy for their cause. It's obviously worked with you.
Asymetric or guerilla warfare has always taken this form. Palestinians are no different in this respect to any other resistance force. Or are you suggesting that there is some kind of genetic sub-humanity about the Palestinian race (perhaps justifying the proportionality of 100 Palestinian deaths for every 1 Israeli death)?


01/07/2009 07:25:10 PM · #46
Originally posted by fir3bird:

Originally posted by AlexSaberi:

actually the ceasefire was broken by israel.


Really? Why don't you explain to me how Israel broke the ceasefire? Seems I noticed there were several hundred rockets fired into Israel from Gaza until finally Israel responded to the continuous violation of the ceasefire. But maybe this was all colored against Hamas by the press. So educate me, please.


Well tit for tat has been going on for decades - so who started it all is impossible to say. But the latest June ceasefire appears to have been broken by Israel:

"Israel argues that Hamas abandoned the June ceasefire that Jerusalem was prepared to continue. "Israel is the first one who wants the violence to end. We were not looking for this. There was no other option. The truce was violated by Hamas," said Livni.

However, others say that the truce was thrown into jeopardy in November when the Israeli military killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid on Gaza. The Palestinians noted that it was election day in the US, so most of the rest of the world did not notice what happened. Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into Israel. Six more Palestinians died in two other Israeli attacks in the following week."

//www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-hamas-hidden-agenda


01/07/2009 07:37:36 PM · #47
Back OT, the absence of international journalists in this conflict has been outrageous. No-one should lose sight of the fact that both sides are waging a media and propaganda war that has few rules.

//firedoglake.com/2008/12/30/why-israel-wont-allow-journalists-into-gaza/

01/07/2009 08:20:35 PM · #48
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

GeneralE, I usually see eye to eye with you on issues here, but this time not.

Is this justified?
' . substr('//www.shaztastic.com/web/white_phosphorus_in_gaza.jpg', strrpos('//www.shaztastic.com/web/white_phosphorus_in_gaza.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

Using white phosphorus scatter bombs in a densely populated city of civilians?

How in the fuck is this justified?

It blows my mind how you people back Israel's overly aggressive use of force.

Should I start posting hundreds of pictures of dead and maimed children from American made bombs being dropped by Israel on poor brown people?

//www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80720&sectionid=351020202


Do you consider it equally outrageous that Hamas has fired weapons into civilian areas of Isreal? You can post pictures of maimed children from both sides in this conflict and it doesn't really make it any less heart breaking which side they are from.

01/07/2009 08:50:55 PM · #49
Originally posted by JH:

when I see Palestinians waving their arms in the air outside bombed out schools shouting 'Allahu Akbar', that really irritates me. It was their 'great' god and the Israelis 'great' god that contributed to this mess to start with.


religion is a wonderful thing, isnt it? ;)
i sometimes think that religion is the main reason we are drifting further away from god.
01/07/2009 08:52:49 PM · #50
Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


...To claim that Israel is somehow an ancestral home exclusive to the Palestinians is ignorant of the area's history.

I never made such a claim. You were just using a straw man to imply that I'm ignorant.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


...maybe you need an American History refresher course.

Again, you set up a straw man to suggest I'm ignorant of US history.

Originally posted by Spazmo99:


...If being alive and being wronged are criteria for your sympathy, where is your outrage over the treatment of the Jews. I'm sure there are plenty of survivors from the pograms and state sanctioned anti-semitism of the 20th century, though I'd wager that many more Jews suffered and died than Palestinians have.

Again, you set up a straw man and implied that I'm insensitive to Jewish suffering.

These are not arguments you used, they're personal attacks. I'm done talking with you now.


That's the way, when someone questions your position or asks how your logic applies in other situations run away.

Had I called you a dumbass; that would be a personal attack. Questioning your reasoning by examining it in a comparable situation isn't.

Pages:  
Current Server Time: 07/16/2019 08:28:05 PM

Please log in or register to post to the forums.


Home - Challenges - Community - League - Photos - Cameras - Lenses - Learn - Prints! - Help - Terms of Use - Privacy - Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2019 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Proudly hosted by Sargasso Networks. Current Server Time: 07/16/2019 08:28:05 PM EDT.