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01/06/2009 11:54:19 AM · #1
What a mess.

It's difficult to interpret the media coverage, as Israel isn't allowing the media in. Most of the video footage I've seen has been shot by 'correspondents', and this might sound cynical, but I wonder how much playing up to the camera is involved? You can see bodies being dragged into ambulances, but most people seem to be glancing around at the camera to make sure it's filming before everyone crowds around the hospital doors wailing and screaming.

Not that I don't think what is happening in Gaza is absolutely terrible. But when I see Palestinians waving their arms in the air outside bombed out schools shouting 'Allahu Akbar', that really irritates me. It was their 'great' god and the Israelis 'great' god that contributed to this mess to start with.
01/06/2009 12:32:20 PM · #2
Originally posted by JH:

What a mess.

It's difficult to interpret the media coverage, as Israel isn't allowing the media in. Most of the video footage I've seen has been shot by 'correspondents', and this might sound cynical, but I wonder how much playing up to the camera is involved? You can see bodies being dragged into ambulances, but most people seem to be glancing around at the camera to make sure it's filming before everyone crowds around the hospital doors wailing and screaming.

Not that I don't think what is happening in Gaza is absolutely terrible. But when I see Palestinians waving their arms in the air outside bombed out schools shouting 'Allahu Akbar', that really irritates me. It was their 'great' god and the Israelis 'great' god that contributed to this mess to start with.


if someone put a bomb on your home what do you do? do you really think that put bombs on the city will be useful for crop the terrorists? for every terrorist that die there will be another 10 person that will want kill who destroy the homes,kill the brother,the mother etc......
the real thing is that we have a terroristic party in Gaza but they won regular(for that lands) elections. why a terroristic party win the elections? perhaps we must start from this point. the real thing is that nobody want a real peace in that lands.
Israel want new lands, palestinians want their lands,european and american are incapable,even because don't want be capable, to stop the war.
the media say that they want and that the local boss want. seems me normal that the peoples want show to the world what it happens. seems normal also they want show a force that they don't have.
01/06/2009 01:26:00 PM · #3
Originally posted by Rino63:

if someone put a bomb on your home what do you do?

And if "someone" shot a rocket at your home or your child's school what would you (or would you want your government to) do?

Especially when that "someone" represents a "government" whose stated policy and purpose is to anihilate you and your people?
01/06/2009 01:32:38 PM · #4
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Rino63:

if someone put a bomb on your home what do you do?

And if "someone" shot a rocket at your home or your child's school what would you (or would you want your government to) do?

Especially when that "someone" represents a "government" whose stated policy and purpose is to anihilate you and your people?

yes, infact:why a terroristic party win the elections? perhaps we must start from this point.
01/06/2009 02:03:21 PM · #5
Originally posted by Rino63:

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by Rino63:

if someone put a bomb on your home what do you do?

And if "someone" shot a rocket at your home or your child's school what would you (or would you want your government to) do?

Especially when that "someone" represents a "government" whose stated policy and purpose is to anihilate you and your people?

yes, infact:why a terroristic party win the elections? perhaps we must start from this point.

From the Palestinian's viewpoint, Hamas are not terrorists, they won a majority in the 2006 Palestinian elections. Hamas have been listed as a 'terrorist organisation' by the US, EU and other countries.

In fact, Fatah ousted Hamas representatives from their parliamentary positions and replaced them after the election. Fatah banned Hamas in 2007.

Hamas took complete control of the Gaza Strip, where they are seen by the people as the legitimate governing body. They manage social welfare, aid distribution, facilities, electricity, water, schools etc. - All the activities a 'normal' government would perform.

However, because Israel have classified the entire Hamas structure as 'terrorists' they can claim they are targeting terrorist infrastructure when they hit government buildings, police stations and schools in the Gaza Strip.

Message edited by author 2009-01-06 14:04:02.
01/06/2009 02:29:20 PM · #6
Do you contradict the assertion that the stated policy of Hamas is genocidal, and calls for the destruction of what is seen by most of the world as a legitimate, soverign state?
01/06/2009 02:40:50 PM · #7
two peoples two states this is the only possible solution! the political instability in israel (and the new election in the next months) are some of the causes of the new war. another problem is that there is a too much disproportion between the force on the field. this cause that the war could be convenient sometimes(this is an analysis of some observer) insteed of a politic solution. but really the only country that have a strong influence are the USA, if the USA administration don't want a durable peace in middle east don't will be the peace. today the only important country that want a war with israel(with the words will be if will be a true intention) is the iran. solved the iranian problem solved the middle east problem. I hope that the new USA administration will be enough strong on the international plane for begin a vituous process in middle east. I am not a pacifist but the bombs have not never solved problems.

Message edited by author 2009-01-06 14:44:50.
01/06/2009 02:52:17 PM · #8
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Do you contradict the assertion that the stated policy of Hamas is genocidal, and calls for the destruction of what is seen by most of the world as a legitimate, soverign state?

I'm not on Hamas' side here! - I was trying to explain why a 'terroristic' party was elected. It was because they are not seen as 'terrorists' by their people.

Hamas continue to fire rockets at Israel, under the illusion that if they are still firing rockets from the ashes of Gaza and the corpses of their children when/if there's a ceasefire then they've achieved some kind of victory against Israel. Do these actions represent these of a rational governing body? What sane government would put their own people at risk for the sake of proving some extremist point?

If I was an Israeli knowing that Hamas have been beavering away extending the range of their rockets, of course I'd want my government to respond with force - if all diplomatic routes have been exhausted.

And that's one of the issues here - Not only have diplomatic routes not been explored fully, it's almost impossible to even get started on a diplomatic solution - Hamas are hell-bent on destruction of the 'Zionists', and Israel view them as terrorists, and their people as supporters. Where do you even start?
01/06/2009 03:10:25 PM · #9
Originally posted by JH:


And that's one of the issues here - Not only have diplomatic routes not been explored fully, it's almost impossible to even get started on a diplomatic solution - Hamas are hell-bent on destruction of the 'Zionists', and Israel view them as terrorists, and their people as supporters. Where do you even start?


That's probably the most succinct, accurate summation of the situation I've ever seen.
01/06/2009 03:46:42 PM · #10
I am reading Alan Dershowitz's "The Case Against Israel's Enemies" and it is a good one. He favors a two state solution and the book skewers a broad range of people, including the Palestinians and the Israeli governments. He uses strong language to make his points but it seems fairly evenhanded.
01/06/2009 04:18:51 PM · #11
From Charles Krauthammer's column today, regarding what the Palestinians did when the Israelis gave them an unconditional cease-fire and the Gaza lands on which to settle:

At war today in Gaza, one combatant is committed to causing the most civilian pain and suffering on both sides. The other combatant is committed to saving as many lives as possible -- also on both sides. It's a recurring theme. Israel gave similar warnings to Southern Lebanese villagers before attacking Hezbollah in the Lebanon war of 2006. The Israelis did this knowing it would lose for them the element of surprise and cost the lives of their own soldiers.

That is the asymmetry of means between Hamas and Israel. But there is equal clarity regarding the asymmetry of ends. Israel has but a single objective in Gaza -- peace: the calm, open, normal relations it offered Gaza when it withdrew in 2005. Doing something never done by the Turkish, British, Egyptian and Jordanian rulers of Palestine, the Israelis gave the Palestinians their first sovereign territory ever in Gaza.

What ensued? This is not ancient history. Did the Palestinians begin building the state that is supposedly their great national aim? No. No roads, no industry, no courts, no civil society at all. The flourishing greenhouses that Israel left behind for the Palestinians were destroyed and abandoned. Instead, Gaza's Iranian-sponsored rulers have devoted all their resources to turning it into a terror base -- importing weapons, training terrorists, building tunnels with which to kidnap Israelis on the other side. And of course firing rockets unceasingly.


R.
01/06/2009 04:49:31 PM · #12
I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.
01/06/2009 05:07:07 PM · #13
Originally posted by mpeters:

I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.


I observe that the majority of folk in the US sound like you.
01/06/2009 05:14:25 PM · #14
Firstly lets give the Palestinians back the land that was stolen since 1967. This has been called for by UN mandates. Why hasnt this happened?
01/06/2009 05:24:12 PM · #15
Originally posted by raish:

Originally posted by mpeters:

I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.


I observe that the majority of folk in the US sound like you.


?? OK, I sound pro-Israel.

Does Hamas get a pass because they are reacting to oppression by Israel? Which governments actions are most damaging to the prospect of peace.
01/06/2009 05:32:06 PM · #16
actually the ceasefire was broken by israel.
01/06/2009 05:33:29 PM · #17
whooops triple post

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 05:09:12.
01/06/2009 05:33:50 PM · #18
..

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 05:09:20.
01/06/2009 05:50:57 PM · #19
I'll be quite frank about this.

I think Israel are absolute morons. They have absolutely no right to do what they are doing.

Since 2002 only 17 people have been killed by the rocket attacks from Hamas - shall we count up the thousands who have died as a direct result of the Israelis blocking the trade routes?

Hamas exists to combat the relentless expansionism of Israel. It strikes me as hypocritical that the Jews escaped Europe since they faced persecution, but now they are acting in the same way towards others.

Israel is an invention of the western world, it is a country based not on borders, but on religion, and it makes me sick that they have so much support from the US in particular. Look at all the Israeli military equipment, it's all from the US.

01/06/2009 05:53:20 PM · #20
Originally posted by mpeters:

I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.

Um, have you noticed that EVERY major politician, republicans and democrats, have gone on record supporting Israel's heavy handed tactics with oversimplified BS examples like, "...We would do the same thing if someone lobbed missiles at New York...". I'm sorry, but that is not the same as saying more accurately, "...We would do the same thing to the Canadians if we annexed part of their country, displaced thousands of their people, blockaded their ability to move and trade, and then they had the gall to fight back, you bet we'd kick their asses." That last statement sounds much less reasonable and, even though it's still oversimplified, it's closer to the truth than what US politicians have been saying in lock step so far. That's why those of us who see such obvious lies about the situation protest the unjustified slaughtering of so many innocent Palestinians. Israel is not trying just to stop Hamas, Hamas is just an excuse for Israel to act genocidally in a way the world can cheer.
01/07/2009 12:16:53 PM · #21
Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by mpeters:

I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.

Um, have you noticed that EVERY major politician, republicans and democrats, have gone on record supporting Israel's heavy handed tactics with oversimplified BS examples like, "...We would do the same thing if someone lobbed missiles at New York...". I'm sorry, but that is not the same as saying more accurately, "...We would do the same thing to the Canadians if we annexed part of their country, displaced thousands of their people, blockaded their ability to move and trade, and then they had the gall to fight back, you bet we'd kick their asses." That last statement sounds much less reasonable and, even though it's still oversimplified, it's closer to the truth than what US politicians have been saying in lock step so far. That's why those of us who see such obvious lies about the situation protest the unjustified slaughtering of so many innocent Palestinians. Israel is not trying just to stop Hamas, Hamas is just an excuse for Israel to act genocidally in a way the world can cheer.


I trust that you feel really bad for the native americans that lost their native lands to the europeans and want desparately to return your current home to the rightful former owners?

eta: if the native american ancestors of those who used to live where you do now - started lobing rockets into your yard, would you have the identicle position as you posted in your reply above?

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 12:23:21.
01/07/2009 12:33:11 PM · #22
Originally posted by dd1989:

I'll be quite frank about this.

I think Israel are absolute morons. They have absolutely no right to do what they are doing.

Since 2002 only 17 people have been killed by the rocket attacks from Hamas - shall we count up the thousands who have died as a direct result of the Israelis blocking the trade routes?

Hamas exists to combat the relentless expansionism of Israel. It strikes me as hypocritical that the Jews escaped Europe since they faced persecution, but now they are acting in the same way towards others.

Israel is an invention of the western world, it is a country based not on borders, but on religion, and it makes me sick that they have so much support from the US in particular. Look at all the Israeli military equipment, it's all from the US.


Check your numbers.
01/07/2009 12:35:41 PM · #23
Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by mpeters:

I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.

Um, have you noticed that EVERY major politician, republicans and democrats, have gone on record supporting Israel's heavy handed tactics with oversimplified BS examples like, "...We would do the same thing if someone lobbed missiles at New York...". I'm sorry, but that is not the same as saying more accurately, "...We would do the same thing to the Canadians if we annexed part of their country, displaced thousands of their people, blockaded their ability to move and trade, and then they had the gall to fight back, you bet we'd kick their asses." That last statement sounds much less reasonable and, even though it's still oversimplified, it's closer to the truth than what US politicians have been saying in lock step so far. That's why those of us who see such obvious lies about the situation protest the unjustified slaughtering of so many innocent Palestinians. Israel is not trying just to stop Hamas, Hamas is just an excuse for Israel to act genocidally in a way the world can cheer.


I trust that you feel really bad for the native americans that lost their native lands to the europeans and want desparately to return your current home to the rightful former owners?

eta: if the native american ancestors of those who used to live where you do now - started lobing rockets into your yard, would you have the identicle position as you posted in your reply above?


The history of Jews living in the area now known as Israel extends back 3400 years. It's not like they just showed up out of the blue in 1948 and kicked out all the Palestinians.

The first kingdom named "Israel" was established there in 66CE after the Jews defeated the Romans.

To claim that Israel is somehow an ancestral home exclusive to the Palestinians is ignorant of the area's history.

Message edited by author 2009-01-07 12:36:42.
01/07/2009 12:46:27 PM · #24
Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by JMart:

Originally posted by mpeters:

I've observed that when a conflict flares up in the Middle East, the majority of protesters here in the US support the Palestinians. Why? It seems to me that the protesters should focus their energy/anger on Hamas rather than Israel.

Um, have you noticed that EVERY major politician, republicans and democrats, have gone on record supporting Israel's heavy handed tactics with oversimplified BS examples like, "...We would do the same thing if someone lobbed missiles at New York...". I'm sorry, but that is not the same as saying more accurately, "...We would do the same thing to the Canadians if we annexed part of their country, displaced thousands of their people, blockaded their ability to move and trade, and then they had the gall to fight back, you bet we'd kick their asses." That last statement sounds much less reasonable and, even though it's still oversimplified, it's closer to the truth than what US politicians have been saying in lock step so far. That's why those of us who see such obvious lies about the situation protest the unjustified slaughtering of so many innocent Palestinians. Israel is not trying just to stop Hamas, Hamas is just an excuse for Israel to act genocidally in a way the world can cheer.


I trust that you feel really bad for the native americans that lost their native lands to the europeans and want desparately to return your current home to the rightful former owners?

eta: if the native american ancestors of those who used to live where you do now - started lobing rockets into your yard, would you have the identicle position as you posted in your reply above?

Yes, I do feel the treatment of native Americans by Europeans was a horrible genocide. Who exactly do you want me to give my land to? My ancestors were not here at the time of that genocide and various native American tribes have since reached peaceful agreements with the US government. This is not the case in Gaza. People who were removed by force from their homes are still alive today and Israel is taking a pound of flesh from the Palestinians for every scratch they manage to inflict upon Israelis. I'm no fan of Hamas either, but it seems to me that Palestinians keep getting the extremely bad end of the stick time and time again.

If a group of native Americans starting lobbing rockets blindly into my region with little chance of hitting anything and very little chance of casualties, I would not use that as an excuse to subject them to further genocide even if it meant giving up my own home as part of a peace negotiation. But then again, I don't believe the land I live on was granted to me by God, so it would be a little less painful for me to have to move.
01/07/2009 12:50:19 PM · #25
Originally posted by Spazmo99:


The history of Jews living in the area now known as Israel extends back 3400 years. It's not like they just showed up out of the blue in 1948 and kicked out all the Palestinians.

The first kingdom named "Israel" was established there in 66CE after the Jews defeated the Romans.

To claim that Israel is somehow an ancestral home exclusive to the Palestinians is ignorant of the area's history.

Spaz, I know very well that this is not land the Palestinians have held forever & I never suggested it, so please don't put words into my mouth. I don't really care who owned the land 1000 or 2000 years ago. I care that there are people alive today that were forcibly removed from their homes in a way that should not be acceptable to modern people. Now they are being subjected to genocidal attacks. That's where I have a problem with what Israel is doing.
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