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01/02/2009 10:50:29 PM · #101
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Qart:

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by Kelli:

[quote=DrAchoo] ...LOL! I know, but I was bored and wanted to throw some wood on the fire.


Not the kind of person one would have negotiate a peace. :-/


Would that be for one of the many current conflicts that are non religion based?

IMO Spaz dosn't need to support his assertion with hard numbers... numbers that are innacurate to begin with. The general perception for those who don't have a faith which they're honor bound to defend is that most conflicts DO have a religious element and if Christians can't provide hard facts to back up their assertions why should others be expected to. 100 religious scholars 'can't agree on the colour of shite' let alone the birth date of their savior.


Rudy, what's a reasonable guy like you doing in Rant? and especially saying silly stuff like this.

Was World War I about faith? World War II? Joseph Stalin's great purge? (that one was the opposite if anything) The An Shi rebellion (listed on Jeb's list as An Lushan Revolt)? The answer is categorically "no". The death toll for those four conflicts is conservatively 125 million people which already completely dwarfs any religious death toll. (Let's recall the Crusades, which is the favorite Poster Child for those with religious discontent, killed about 3 million people over 200 or more years.)

The numbers just don't support the argument. The only way it can be made is with closed eyes and an agenda.

01/02/2009 11:03:56 PM · #102
Originally posted by Prash:

Get out, get a coffee, and just enjoy wherever and whatever you are.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

What if I don't want coffee?????

8>)


Originally posted by L2:

Doesn't matter, Imma come over and pour some down your throat whilst telling you how lucky you are to have it and how good it is if you'd only swallow more. But only on the first Friday of every year, cause that's when it's supposed to happen.

buwahaha

Perhaps just a touch of decaf??????

(Backs away c a r e f u l l y...........)
01/02/2009 11:40:05 PM · #103
Originally posted by zeuszen:

I've never had a Buddhist pick a fight with me.

Originally posted by Prash:

But I can bet people of other religions have now or once picked a fight with a Buddhist.

Interesting article 'bout that.....

Buddhism, Non-Violence & The Potential Extinction of Buddhism Because of It
01/03/2009 12:45:04 PM · #104
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The list of wars is just too damn long to go through, list every one and it's death toll since it's harder to find one that doesn't contain religious conflict.


You aren't reading Spaz, obviously. I just listed four that obviously have nothing to do with religion with a body count of 125 million. Duh! I could list a ton more since 19 of the 20 "worst conflicts" on Jeb's list are for common secular reasons.

You wanna reveal the religious "root" to these conflicts?

World War I
World War II
Joseph Stalin's Purge
An Shi Rebellion

You just sound like you have your fingers in your ears going "la la la! I can't hear you!"...
01/03/2009 01:27:42 PM · #105
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The list of wars is just too damn long to go through, list every one and it's death toll since it's harder to find one that doesn't contain religious conflict.


You aren't reading Spaz, obviously. I just listed four that obviously have nothing to do with religion with a body count of 125 million. Duh! I could list a ton more since 19 of the 20 "worst conflicts" on Jeb's list are for common secular reasons.

You wanna reveal the religious "root" to these conflicts?

World War I
World War II
Joseph Stalin's Purge
An Shi Rebellion

You just sound like you have your fingers in your ears going "la la la! I can't hear you!"...


WWII...really?

In 1933, the Protestant church in Germany celebrated and endorsed Hitler's rise to power. The Lutherans used Luther's writings to make it appear as if Luther would have supported German Nationalism. Speeches were made by Erich Koch, a prominent leader held in high regard in the Lutheran Church, comparing Luther and Hitler and claiming that the Nazis fight with Luther's spirit.

Then there's the efforts of the German Protestants to combine Christianity with Nazism to create a National Socialist Protestantism. In late 1933, the Protestant Deutsche Christians passed three resolutions:

1. Adolph Hitler is the completion of the Reformation.
2. Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church. (This is a first step in what would become Hitler's "Final Solution")
3. The Old Testament was rejected from the Sacred Scriptures.

Then of course, there's Ludwig Müller and his role in the Protestant Reich Church. He encouraged the Gestapo to monitor churches and sought to unify Christian youth groups with the Hitler Youth...

Then there's the extermination of the Jews. You could call that genocide over ethnic differences, but there's no denying the religious component and the use of religion to justify such an atrocity. There's also the matter of the Holocaust's role in the formation of Israel itself, a nation that has been at war almost continuously and it's impossible to deny the religious nature of those conflicts.
01/03/2009 01:27:47 PM · #106
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by zeuszen:

I've never had a Buddhist pick a fight with me.

Originally posted by Prash:

But I can bet people of other religions have now or once picked a fight with a Buddhist.

Interesting article 'bout that.....

Buddhism, Non-Violence & The Potential Extinction of Buddhism Because of It


Excellent link, perfect context. Thank you.
01/03/2009 01:43:49 PM · #107
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

...the efforts of the German Protestants to combine Christianity with Nazism to create a National Socialist Protestantism. In late 1933, the Protestant Deutsche Christians passed three resolutions:

1. Adolph Hitler is the completion of the Reformation.
2. Baptized Jews are to be dismissed from the Church. (This is a first step in what would become Hitler's "Final Solution")
3. The Old Testament was rejected from the Sacred Scriptures...


Martin Niemöller's short biography as a synopsis of the above.
01/03/2009 02:37:25 PM · #108
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...

Message edited by author 2009-01-03 14:46:57.
01/03/2009 04:34:13 PM · #109
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...

Love the way you completely discount religion from Spaz's response - so if it's not "the root cause," then it's not a factor at all, eh? Faulty logic.
01/03/2009 08:21:23 PM · #110
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...


Typical Christian head in the sand excuses. You didn't have the gun in your hand when the trigger was pulled, you just bought the ammo and loaded it.

Ludwig Müller the head of the German Christians was devoted to the Nazi cause to the end.

How is the ethnicity of the Jew separable from their religion? Judaism is part of the Jewish ethnic identity that was the reason they were persecuted. How nice it must be for you to be able to draw neat little boxes around things that are really quite messy and ignore the overlaps that don't make the story read the way you want it to read.
01/03/2009 09:08:40 PM · #111
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...


Typical Christian head in the sand excuses. You didn't have the gun in your hand when the trigger was pulled, you just bought the ammo and loaded it.

Ludwig Müller the head of the German Christians was devoted to the Nazi cause to the end.

How is the ethnicity of the Jew separable from their religion? Judaism is part of the Jewish ethnic identity that was the reason they were persecuted. How nice it must be for you to be able to draw neat little boxes around things that are really quite messy and ignore the overlaps that don't make the story read the way you want it to read.

Perhaps you should "correct" the Wikipedia article on the Holocaust. It says:

"Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe.[24] All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[25]"

Unless the Wiki article is in error, it would seem that the Holocaust was a racially/ethnically motivated genocide, not a religiously motivated genocide.
01/03/2009 09:20:48 PM · #112
Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...


Typical Christian head in the sand excuses. You didn't have the gun in your hand when the trigger was pulled, you just bought the ammo and loaded it.

Ludwig Müller the head of the German Christians was devoted to the Nazi cause to the end.

How is the ethnicity of the Jew separable from their religion? Judaism is part of the Jewish ethnic identity that was the reason they were persecuted. How nice it must be for you to be able to draw neat little boxes around things that are really quite messy and ignore the overlaps that don't make the story read the way you want it to read.

Perhaps you should "correct" the Wikipedia article on the Holocaust. It says:

"Anyone with three or four Jewish grandparents was to be exterminated without exception. In other genocides, people were able to escape death by converting to another religion or in some other way assimilating. This option was not available to the Jews of occupied Europe.[24] All persons of recent Jewish ancestry were to be exterminated in lands controlled by Germany.[25]"

Unless the Wiki article is in error, it would seem that the Holocaust was a racially/ethnically motivated genocide, not a religiously motivated genocide.


Yet, Judaism remains part of their ethnicity and, had the Holocaust not happened, it's likely the state of Israel would not have been established and they have essentially been at war since the birth of Israel in 1948 and religion is central to every conflict relative to Israel.

In any event it's ludicrous to deny or downplay the role of the German Christian churches in the holocaust and in ostracizing German Jews. Yet there you go, marching happily along, head full of church propaganda.
01/03/2009 10:20:17 PM · #113
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...

Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Love the way you completely discount religion from Spaz's response - so if it's not "the root cause," then it's not a factor at all, eh? Faulty logic.


As much as I hate to side with Jason when it comes to religion.......8>)

WWII was absolutely, unequivocally about "Ethnic Cleansing" as far as Hitler was concerned.

Does the phrase "Aryan Master Race" ring any bells?
01/04/2009 12:09:46 AM · #114
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Love the way you completely discount religion from Spaz's response - so if it's not "the root cause," then it's not a factor at all, eh? Faulty logic.


You aren't reading the thread. The original assertion that spurred this argument was Spaz saying that regarding conflict, "More often than not, religion is at the core of it."

Would you consider religion to be at the core of WWII? I'm asking you personally.

Message edited by author 2009-01-04 00:10:18.
01/04/2009 02:18:14 AM · #115
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...

Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Love the way you completely discount religion from Spaz's response - so if it's not "the root cause," then it's not a factor at all, eh? Faulty logic.


As much as I hate to side with Jason when it comes to religion.......8>)

WWII was absolutely, unequivocally about "Ethnic Cleansing" as far as Hitler was concerned.

Does the phrase "Aryan Master Race" ring any bells?


Don't discount the role of Luther's antisemitism and writings in influencing Hitler's philosophy.

The War may not have been about whose god was better, but the church and religion played an important role in the formation of Hitler's and the Nazi ideals, the indoctrination of the German people and the subsequent atrocities.
01/04/2009 02:27:37 AM · #116
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

WWII...really?


Originally posted by DrAchoo:

You must be completely and utterly joking. Quoting support by the church for Hitler six whole years before the war is ludicrous as evidence that World War II had "as its root cause" (your words) religion. If Obama tips off World War III in 2015 due to events completely unseen by us, am I part of the root cause for voting for him? In 1933 Hitler was running around bringing Germany back from the brink of collapse due to the Versailles Treaty imposed after World War I. He greatly expanded the economy, built up infrastructure, and encouraged culture. Who wouldn't have supported that at the time?

I challenge you to find one essayist who even comes close to saying the main reason Germany started running around Europe annexing places was because of religion.

I was going to save you the embarassment of pointing to the Jews, but I see you already fell into that trap. They were exterminated for their ethnicity, not religion due to the scientific principle of Eugenics (which we would consider pseudoscience now). If this isn't true, then why were Poles, Gypsies, invalids, and mentally retarded people also killed? Their religion?

Read the wiki for the Final Solution. Note how many times race is mentioned in the quotes and how many times religion is (ie. zero)...

Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Love the way you completely discount religion from Spaz's response - so if it's not "the root cause," then it's not a factor at all, eh? Faulty logic.


As much as I hate to side with Jason when it comes to religion.......8>)

WWII was absolutely, unequivocally about "Ethnic Cleansing" as far as Hitler was concerned.

Does the phrase "Aryan Master Race" ring any bells?


Don't discount the role of Luther's antisemitism and writings in influencing Hitler's philosophy.

The War may not have been about whose god was better, but the church and religion played an important role in the formation of Hitler's and the Nazi ideals, the indoctrination of the German people and the subsequent atrocities.
01/04/2009 02:54:49 AM · #117
Well, I'm never going to convince the hardliners. I think I've presented my case adequately to the rationals in the conversation and that's all that need be done.
01/04/2009 03:03:44 AM · #118
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well, I'm never going to convince the hardliners. I think I've presented my case adequately to the rationals in the conversation and that's all that need be done.


You tried hard, but came up short, sorry.

Message edited by author 2009-01-04 03:04:12.
01/04/2009 03:54:10 AM · #119
If religion was completely discarded today we would still start wars tomorrow. Religion is not what sends us to war. It's fear.
01/04/2009 08:11:11 PM · #120
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Well, I'm never going to convince the hardliners. I think I've presented my case adequately to the rationals in the conversation and that's all that need be done.


The original proposition was an over-simplification. You have addressed a specific phrase, but not the concept.

Religion is one of several factors that is used to differentiate and divide people in hatred. In matters such as war propaganda, prejudice sparked by differentiated religion is a key factor that makes war significantly easier to wage. Race is another. Without these differentiating factors, it is hard to believe that the US majority would stomach the deaths of Muslims in recent middle east conflicts quite so easily. Hard to believe that Germans would have exterminated fellow Christians as easily as Jews, or that Sikhs would have turned so quickly on Muslim neighbours in India/Pakistan.

Political leaders use these prejudices to make hatred, war and killing far easier than they would otherwise be (the breakdown of Yugoslavia is a very obvious example where religious hatred was overtly used to encourage hatred and the ease of slaughter).

So, while religion might not be the cause of war (political leaders are usually above such reasoning), it is a fuel commonly used to propel the locomotive of war.
01/04/2009 09:50:49 PM · #121
Originally posted by Matthew:

So, while religion might not be the cause of war (political leaders are usually above such reasoning), it is a fuel commonly used to propel the locomotive of war.


Have I denied this? No. I've merely tried to point out it is quite naive to think that if religion were absent that people would not find other means to differentiate between "us" and "them" and continue to wage the same wars. We have lots of examples of wars where Religion played either no role as fuel or was only an afterthought. We were talking about four big ones above. Heck, Science has been used to do the exact same thing but I don't hear anybody yelling for us to discard that (which is good).

I am merely standing up and pointing out that religion is being given the bum rush. Yes, it is used by bad people to advance their quest for power. Many other things are as well but somehow religion has been separated from those as being particularly bad. An unbiased look at the evidence shows this to not be the case, at least if we use the metric of death toll. Also, everybody has failed to mention that religion is also used to dampen war. Why doesn't this get any airplay? Mandela? King Jr? It cuts both ways, but nobody wants to note that because everybody has such a chip on their shoulder about religion.
01/05/2009 12:33:04 AM · #122
Let's face it. Religion sucks. Men always muck it all up and turn it into something that was never intended. Faith, hope and love, however, Rock!! Organized religion is subject to politics and greed and social status and on and on but personal faith, hope in the future, and love for your fellow man can propel you on in a life of service to God the way that being a part of an organized religious institution never can. It's what's inside of you and not where you are on Sunday morning.
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