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01/02/2009 12:33:09 PM · #76
Originally posted by pixelpig:

Excellent rant ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' NikonJeb. ---

The people who 'hate' Christmas are always going off on a rant. People who 'love' Christmas seldom do, so I decided to be one of those. I love Christmas. I love the whole holiday season, starting with Halloween, endiding with Valentine's Day. Summer is just a time of waiting for the winter holidays.

I love everything about Winter. The long nights. The clouds. The sharp cold wind. Winter sunsets. The bare tree branches. Warm clothing. I love all the winter food. I love the idea of gathering & harvesting & then spending the Winter enjoying all of it. I love the Christmas Parades. I love all the Christmas music (I don't work in a Mall). I love it when the Christmas dispslays go up right on the heels of the Halloween displays. I love thinking about presents to give people. I don't actually give them to anyone any more, because everyone I know 'hates' Christmas, but I still love thinking about it. It's distressful to be surrounded by all the grumpiness, but if I don't mention the word Christmas to anyone, I can get by OK.

There's a reason so many different religious groups have a winter ceremony, including retail (if it's not too much of a stretch to think of retail as a religion). It's a good time of year to have something good to look forward to, plan for, enjoy, & look back upon.

There are quite a few summer holidays, too. But nobody 'hates' being forced to celetrate the founding of our nation on a certain date, or any of the other sumemr holidays. People just love to hate Christmas.

Just for the record, I don't hate Christmas....not even one little bit.

I do not care for how some people use it to excuse certain behavior and I don't much care for the hypocrisy that I see in some people who wouldn't be nice any other time, and whose gestures are empty and only done for gain and/or from seasonal pressure.

Maybe I just look at things a little deeper and closer than you do. I'm pretty pleased each day when I wake up and realize there's a new day, full of possibilities and opportunities to make a difference. I take life seriously.

Have a good day.
01/02/2009 12:45:12 PM · #77
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Jeb seems to think I'm now simply ignoring "facts" although I doubt he has any information on this subject either.

Try this: Historical Body Count

It seems to be kind of a laundry list of nasty stuff perpetrated on each other from wars, religion, and government.

We're pretty nasty critters, us humans......8>(


I totally agree. But looking at the list of the "worst 20". How many of those have religion as their root cause? One? It's not even close. I have no fantasy that bad people have done bad things in the name of religion. That makes them bad Christians (or Muslims or whatever). However, I likewise have no fantasy that if suddenly we had a world a la John Lennon's "Imagine" without religion that bad people would stop doing bad things.

The case is made even stronger if you look at recent history. Religion seems to be getting its act together. Really 20th century religious conflict is limited to small skirmishes like Northern Ireland or, if you squint your eyes right, Bosnia. Meanwhile we have become more and more efficient at killing each other. The genocide in Rwanda managed to kill nearly a million people in only 90 days. And that was done with such inefficient tools as the machette.

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 12:51:21.
01/02/2009 12:55:10 PM · #78
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by Kelli:

[quote=DrAchoo] ...LOL! I know, but I was bored and wanted to throw some wood on the fire.


Not the kind of person one would have negotiate a peace. :-/


Would that be for one of the many current conflicts that are non religion based?

IMO Spaz dosn't need to support his assertion with hard numbers... numbers that are innacurate to begin with. The general perception for those who don't have a faith which they're honor bound to defend is that most conflicts DO have a religious element and if Christians can't provide hard facts to back up their assertions why should others be expected to. 100 religious scholars 'can't agree on the colour of shite' let alone the birth date of their savior.
01/02/2009 01:10:35 PM · #79
Originally posted by Qart:

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by Kelli:

[quote=DrAchoo] ...LOL! I know, but I was bored and wanted to throw some wood on the fire.


Not the kind of person one would have negotiate a peace. :-/


Would that be for one of the many current conflicts that are non religion based?

IMO Spaz dosn't need to support his assertion with hard numbers... numbers that are innacurate to begin with. The general perception for those who don't have a faith which they're honor bound to defend is that most conflicts DO have a religious element and if Christians can't provide hard facts to back up their assertions why should others be expected to. 100 religious scholars 'can't agree on the colour of shite' let alone the birth date of their savior.


Rudy, what's a reasonable guy like you doing in Rant? and especially saying silly stuff like this.

Was World War I about faith? World War II? Joseph Stalin's great purge? (that one was the opposite if anything) The An Shi rebellion (listed on Jeb's list as An Lushan Revolt)? The answer is categorically "no". The death toll for those four conflicts is conservatively 125 million people which already completely dwarfs any religious death toll. (Let's recall the Crusades, which is the favorite Poster Child for those with religious discontent, killed about 3 million people over 200 or more years.)

The numbers just don't support the argument. The only way it can be made is with closed eyes and an agenda.

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 13:11:10.
01/02/2009 01:25:08 PM · #80
Hey Doc... :)
A very strong argument indeed. I can't help but wonder if the size of the world population at any given time in history has much to do with the numbers. For instance... if the worldwide population during the Crusades was say 2 Billion people, do you think that it would make the list? I'm pretty certain that the crusades were a pretty big deal during their time.
Not really ranting here but we both know that numbers are very subjective. I DO wish that the perception mentioned earlier was other than it is but you can't argue that it's a pretty generally accepted one.
01/02/2009 01:32:36 PM · #81
Originally posted by Qart:

Hey Doc... :)
A very strong argument indeed. I can't help but wonder if the size of the world population at any given time in history has much to do with the numbers. For instance... if the worldwide population during the Crusades was say 2 Billion people, do you think that it would make the list? I'm pretty certain that the crusades were a pretty big deal during their time.
Not really ranting here but we both know that numbers are very subjective. I DO wish that the perception mentioned earlier was other than it is but you can't argue that it's a pretty generally accepted one.


Ya, I know numbers are subjective. The problem here is they are so overwhelmingly against Spaz's case that you can only just ignore them. They can't be spun away. Sure the world population was lower back then, but that's not my problem. Let the qualifications begin! The An Shi rebellion occurred 500 years BEFORE the crusades and still killed 10x their death toll.

So the argument is basically over. I'll officially stake Spaz's head on a spike at the gate as a warning against people who make similar silly claims and can't back them up (or even worse demand that someone else do the work for them).
01/02/2009 01:33:46 PM · #82
I don't know why you guys are arguing about religion and war and all that crap. Christmas (aka xmas) isn't about religion--it's about money. If it wasn't for the billions of dollars that change hands every year it would all have faded away long ago.
01/02/2009 02:00:25 PM · #83
Originally posted by Mick:

I don't know why you guys are arguing about religion and war and all that crap. Christmas (aka xmas) isn't about religion--it's about money. If it wasn't for the billions of dollars that change hands every year it would all have faded away long ago.


All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)
01/02/2009 02:10:27 PM · #84
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mick:

I don't know why you guys are arguing about religion and war and all that crap. Christmas (aka xmas) isn't about religion--it's about money. If it wasn't for the billions of dollars that change hands every year it would all have faded away long ago.


All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)


...and speaking of Underrated Masters Challenge entries...
01/02/2009 03:11:55 PM · #85
Originally posted by Mick:

I don't know why you guys are arguing about religion and war and all that crap. Christmas (aka xmas) isn't about religion--it's about money. If it wasn't for the billions of dollars that change hands every year it would all have faded away long ago.

That was kind of my original point......how did we get from the Christian tradition of peace on earth & goodwill towards men to the fat guys in the mall starting the day after Thanksgiving filling little kids heads full of, well.......greed and thirst for more?

It's an ugly transition that IS a mercenary thing rather than the true "Christmas Spirit".

Just my grumpy ol' opinion, though......8>)
01/02/2009 03:13:08 PM · #86
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'll officially stake Spaz's head on a spike at the gate as a warning against people who make similar silly claims and can't back them up (or even worse demand that someone else do the work for them).

Don't you mean pike, Vlad?.......8>)
01/02/2009 03:53:49 PM · #87
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I'll officially stake Spaz's head on a spike at the gate as a warning against people who make similar silly claims and can't back them up (or even worse demand that someone else do the work for them).

Don't you mean pike, Vlad?.......8>)


:) Well, that would work too, but my pikes are all at the Smithee...

And I can heartily agree with your asking how Christmas went from peace on earth to decorations up by Halloween so we can sell more more more. The terrible thing is, we can't make it go away without inducing the largest depression we've ever seen...
01/02/2009 04:34:31 PM · #88
Originally posted by DrAchoo:



All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)


That is because at the core of most differences between modern people is religion. It prevents people from viewing things from an intellectual and rational wide view of reality.

Its the year 2009 now, just like most other ideas we came up with from before we had science, religion needs to go.

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 16:37:53.
01/02/2009 05:14:58 PM · #89
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:



All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)


That is because at the core of most differences between modern people is religion. It prevents people from viewing things from an intellectual and rational wide view of reality.

Its the year 2009 now, just like most other ideas we came up with from before we had science, religion needs to go.


Welcome new person! I'm afraid I can't agree with you and know that that topic in itself is one of the "common themes". I'm quite comfortable with the knowledge I am every bit as intellectual and rational as the next guy.
01/02/2009 05:35:20 PM · #90
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:



All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)


That is because at the core of most differences between modern people is religion. It prevents people from viewing things from an intellectual and rational wide view of reality.

Its the year 2009 now, just like most other ideas we came up with from before we had science, religion needs to go.


Welcome back, MadMordegon. Been a long time! :)
01/02/2009 06:05:37 PM · #91
Its not just about religion. Agreed religion has been at the core of some of the worst human conflicts ever. But even if all of us were the same religion, us 'smart' and 'intellectual' beings would find something else to discriminate others against. Wanna bet your life on it? I would.

I read it in an article (I can try and find the source) that the way we learn and memorize things are by discrimination. Association and disassociation are at the core of intelligence so to say. Think about how you learnt about stuff when growing up: "this is a green leaf".. "dont break that big bowl".

We learn at the expense of our differences. So unless we were all teh same mentally and physically and spiritually, I bet we would find good reasons to fight about and keep grudges for.

So in the name of everything thats different and dynamic, forget about silly arguments over religion. Such differences will exist so long as evolution exists in nature. Get out, get a coffee, and just enjoy wherever and whatever you are.

Peace!

ETA: Is it just me or the new hats make you look silly too? ;-) I loved the X-mas ones better.

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 18:24:36.
01/02/2009 06:10:15 PM · #92
Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:



All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)


That is because at the core of most differences between modern people is religion. It prevents people from viewing things from an intellectual and rational wide view of reality.

Its the year 2009 now, just like most other ideas we came up with from before we had science, religion needs to go.


I've never had a Buddhist pick a fight with me.
01/02/2009 06:12:37 PM · #93
Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:



All rant threads seem to devolve into a few common themes after a bit. :)


That is because at the core of most differences between modern people is religion. It prevents people from viewing things from an intellectual and rational wide view of reality.

Its the year 2009 now, just like most other ideas we came up with from before we had science, religion needs to go.


I've never had a Buddhist pick a fight with me.


But I can bet people of other religions have now or once picked a fight with a Buddhist.
01/02/2009 07:04:34 PM · #94
Originally posted by Prash:

Get out, get a coffee, and just enjoy wherever and whatever you are.

What if I don't want coffee?????

8>)
01/02/2009 07:07:06 PM · #95
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Prash:

Get out, get a coffee, and just enjoy wherever and whatever you are.

What if I don't want coffee?????

8>)


Doesn't matter, Imma come over and pour some down your throat whilst telling you how lucky you are to have it and how good it is if you'd only swallow more. But only on the first Friday of every year, cause that's when it's supposed to happen.

buwahaha
01/02/2009 07:22:19 PM · #96
Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Prash:

Get out, get a coffee, and just enjoy wherever and whatever you are.

What if I don't want coffee?????

8>)


Doesn't matter, Imma come over and pour some down your throat whilst telling you how lucky you are to have it and how good it is if you'd only swallow more. But only on the first Friday of every year, cause that's when it's supposed to happen.

buwahaha


Jeb you lucky devil. :P
01/02/2009 07:32:14 PM · #97
Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Prash:

Get out, get a coffee, and just enjoy wherever and whatever you are.

What if I don't want coffee?????

8>)


Doesn't matter, Imma come over and pour some down your throat whilst telling you how lucky you are to have it and how good it is if you'd only swallow more. But only on the first Friday of every year, cause that's when it's supposed to happen.

buwahaha


Jeb you lucky devil. :P


If Yanko wants to sit next to Jeb during The Incident, L2 might also fling chocolate candy about as a goodwill gesture.
01/02/2009 09:55:02 PM · #98
Did someone say chocolate????
01/02/2009 10:09:56 PM · #99
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Kelli:

I personally think even 1 person is too many to be killed in the name of religion. I also think it's too many to die in the name of anything (politics, border issues, race, color, sex, etc.). Murder is murder, no matter your reasons.


Well, I fully agree. That's not what's being argued though. Spaz made the unsupported assertion that "more often than not" religion is at the core of conflicts.


I was traveling and since I was unwilling to pay $10 for internet access at O'Hare, I was unable to post.

The fact is that wars are messy affairs and religion is certainly part of the reason for almost any conflict you care to name.

I'll start with a few, if you can think of any wars without religious involvement, feel free to list them.

First, any war involving Israel, from the war to establish the state of Israel to the current Israeli incursions into Gaza.

The first and second Sudanese Civil Wars

The Iran-Iraq War.

The cuurent Afghan War.

The current Iraq War.



Message edited by author 2009-01-02 22:36:43.
01/02/2009 10:39:35 PM · #100
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Qart:

Hey Doc... :)
A very strong argument indeed. I can't help but wonder if the size of the world population at any given time in history has much to do with the numbers. For instance... if the worldwide population during the Crusades was say 2 Billion people, do you think that it would make the list? I'm pretty certain that the crusades were a pretty big deal during their time.
Not really ranting here but we both know that numbers are very subjective. I DO wish that the perception mentioned earlier was other than it is but you can't argue that it's a pretty generally accepted one.


Ya, I know numbers are subjective. The problem here is they are so overwhelmingly against Spaz's case that you can only just ignore them. They can't be spun away. Sure the world population was lower back then, but that's not my problem. Let the qualifications begin! The An Shi rebellion occurred 500 years BEFORE the crusades and still killed 10x their death toll.

So the argument is basically over. I'll officially stake Spaz's head on a spike at the gate as a warning against people who make similar silly claims and can't back them up (or even worse demand that someone else do the work for them).


The list of wars is just too damn long to go through, list every one and it's death toll since it's harder to find one that doesn't contain religious conflict.

And to top it off, now, you, a self proclaimed "Christian" is threatening to "stake my head on a spike"? WTF? How very "Christian" of you. But, hey, what's one more heretic's head on a pike as a warning to others, as long as it's done in the name of Christ, right?

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 22:42:45.
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