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01/01/2009 10:46:20 PM · #51
Originally posted by Nullix:

This is the 20th century. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people taking Christ's name in vane and using it to torture and kill people. Let me know if you have any examples of this happening within the last 200 years (and reference to Bush don't count, he's a idiot).

All this Christian bashing is getting to me. Maybe we should all be rounded up, put in camps and forced to wear gold crosses on our sleeves.

So.....you want to have this selective memory thing, too, right?

It's not okay to remember the facts of the torture and killing, but it's okay to have the holidays?

Since we know better now, and it doesn't really happen so much now, except of course for those little bitty things like the nationwide Christian push for discrimnination against the gay population 'cause it's immoral.....but that's okay, right? 'Cause if you selectively read the Bible it's wrong.

See, that's the thing.....you DON'T get to dictate how it's going to go any more. You have to share the world, and the many ways that we think, and you DON'T get to browbeat people into doing things just 'cause YOU say that's how it's going to be.

And it's NOT heresy to have other beliefs, you cannot lock up people who don't think and believe what you do.

Those days are gone.

Y'all talk about "Good Christian Values" like you wrote the book on decency; we're all God's children......

Well guess what?

We're going to hold you to those lofty principles about love one another as yourself; you just don't get to tell us what God we have to worship, and what day is a holiday any more.

And just because we're standing up and saying "NO!" to the line of crap you want us to believe doesn't mean we're Christian bashing......we're just telling you we won't do it your way just 'cause you say so.
01/01/2009 11:01:09 PM · #52
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Torture, killing and imprisonment was indeed done to any who didn't conform to ideals sanctioned by the church. That would include celebrating "pagan" holidays.


Apparently it wasn't universal..."In 1000 AD, Iceland became nominally Christian, although continuation of pagan worship in private was tolerated. Most of Scandinavia was Christianized during the 11th century. Adam von Bremen gives the last report of vigorous Norse paganism.[6] Sometimes, the subjects of a lord who converted to Christianity refused to follow his lead (this happened to the Swedish kings Olof of Sweden, Anund Gårdske and Ingold I) and would sometimes force the lord to rescind his conversion (e.g. Haakon the Good).[8] The attempt of the deposed Christian monarch Olaf II of Norway to retake the throne resulted in a bloody civil war in Norway, which ended in the battle of Stiklestad (1030). In Sweden, in the early 1080s, Inge I was deposed by popular vote for not wanting to sacrifice to the gods, and replaced by his brother-in-law Blot-Sweyn (literally "Sweyn the Sacrificer").[9] After three years of exile, Inge returned in secret to Old Uppsala and during the night the Christians surrounded the royal hall with Blot-Sweyn inside and set it on fire.[10][11] However, Inge did not immediately regain his throne and the pagan Eirik Arsale briefly came into power[9] before being usurped by Inge."

Also, of course, we are all forgetting it was the pagans who actually persecuted, tortured, and killed the Christians first.

I always get a kick of out people who like to bloody the nose of Christianity and feel it somehow diminishes the faith. Yes, people have done bad to other people in the past. GASP! Sometimes religion is involved, lots of times it isn't. Thank goodness we've put that behind us in the 20th and 21st centuries and now just efficiently kill each other for secular reasons.

Jeb, you need a valium and a few deep breaths. It will make the holidays go by more quickly. You are apparently all up in arms because we have a holiday in the US called Christmas and you don't feel like celebrating. WTF? Don't celebrate it.

Message edited by author 2009-01-01 23:03:01.
01/01/2009 11:11:37 PM · #53
I just want to clarify a couple of things.

I, and many of my friends are not Christians.

I belong to a denomination known as Unitarian Universalism, and we believe that the whole special occasions for being decent to others is a line of shit.

We believe that we're supposed to transform lives and care for the world each and every day.

That also means that we have respect for each person, and their beliefs, and that we encourage them to find and develop their beliefs and spirituality 24/7/365.

There aren't any special days to do this, it's life, every day, all day.

There are Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, atheists, theists, humanists........PEOPLE of all walks of life who choose a different liberal religion than what has become anathema to so many of us with the "Regular" ways.

We actually go out of our way to try and be the best people we can be, and do the most that we can to help each other, and our community, in all sorts of various ways.

And we don't just do this stuff for an hour or so on Sunday. I probably spend 6-10 hours a week between church, and the related outside responsibilities and commitments that we're involved with......and it's a wonderful and fulfilling part of my life. I am involved in various projects where my particular skills and interests lie, that I can do the most good.

So is it any wonder why I get exasperated at the disgusting trappings of this mercantile gluttony that makes it so that I can't get to the food bank in a reasonable amount of time? Or that we have to work extra hard to make sure that there is extra things for Christmas for people who have little or nothing any time of the year, so they're a little more depressed and hopeless this time of year?

You want to demonstrate how loving and giving you are? Pack up ALL that shit, the tree and ornaments, too, and take it to a women's shelter and give it to a mom and her two kids who have nothing......and preferably the mom who you can still see the faint bruising from the last time she was "home".

Some of us have seen a little more of life than others, and it has made a profound impact on us. We don't look at the mere surface and the light, pretty things so much. We dig a little deeper and wonder if we're doing enough to justify how good we've got it......that maybe we can affect our karma by striving to make our own little corner of the world a better place by trying to be of help, yet not impose our will onto the recipients of our efforts.....or to expect anything in return.

There was a discussion about altruism in another thread and it was kind of left that there is no such thing as genuine altruism......there's always some motivation, thereby negating the efforts.

That's sad, and an oversimplification.....and I also don't believe that to be true.

I believe it's possible for one to achieve a level of decency and humility, along with a sense of what needs to be done, purely for the sake OF decency and humility.

It's that belief that causes me to feel quite strongly that the fuss and BS around the overly commercialized holidays is actually more harmful than good, ESPECIALLY right now with the way the world is situated with the economy.

Anyhow......I just think that each and every day should be a good enough reason, just the day, to be good to another that needs your help.
01/01/2009 11:18:36 PM · #54
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by Nullix:

This is the 20th century. Yes, I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people taking Christ's name in vane and using it to torture and kill people. Let me know if you have any examples of this happening within the last 200 years (and reference to Bush don't count, he's a idiot).

All this Christian bashing is getting to me. Maybe we should all be rounded up, put in camps and forced to wear gold crosses on our sleeves.

So.....you want to have this selective memory thing, too, right?

It's not okay to remember the facts of the torture and killing, but it's okay to have the holidays?

Since we know better now, and it doesn't really happen so much now, except of course for those little bitty things like the nationwide Christian push for discrimnination against the gay population 'cause it's immoral.....but that's okay, right? 'Cause if you selectively read the Bible it's wrong.

See, that's the thing.....you DON'T get to dictate how it's going to go any more. You have to share the world, and the many ways that we think, and you DON'T get to browbeat people into doing things just 'cause YOU say that's how it's going to be.

And it's NOT heresy to have other beliefs, you cannot lock up people who don't think and believe what you do.

Those days are gone.

Y'all talk about "Good Christian Values" like you wrote the book on decency; we're all God's children......

Well guess what?

We're going to hold you to those lofty principles about love one another as yourself; you just don't get to tell us what God we have to worship, and what day is a holiday any more.

And just because we're standing up and saying "NO!" to the line of crap you want us to believe doesn't mean we're Christian bashing......we're just telling you we won't do it your way just 'cause you say so.

Bravo, Jeb! That's the best I've heard anyone put that in a long time!
01/01/2009 11:20:35 PM · #55
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Jeb, you need a valium and a few deep breaths. It will make the holidays go by more quickly. You are apparently all up in arms because we have a holiday in the US called Christmas and you don't feel like celebrating. WTF? Don't celebrate it.

Nobody seems to get this......my kid loves Christmas.....she makes out like a bandit.

I grew up in a basically Christian oriented background. I actually believe in what some of the good and decent parts of how you should live are and try to assimilate them.

But I also share this planet with a whole lot of people who don't believe the same things tat you do, and I think it's wrong to be so in their, and my, face about it, and then have you call me names when I don't want to hear it.

Have a good time, celebrate away, just don't tell me I have to, and don't say that we should all decorate and have the nativity scene 'cause it's the symbol of all that's good and holy.

And don't try to make me out to be a bad guy because I believe that everyone should have the right to celebrate, or not, according to their beliefs.

Just because I don't share your version doesn't mean I need a valium and/or a cruise.

Sooner or later you people who think the world revolves around your beliefs are going to have to accept that it doesn't......or at least accept that every person has a right to their beliefs without being denigrated, ridiculed, harassed, tortured, or killed.

"We don't do that any more" doesn't excuse what you did.

Have some respect.
01/01/2009 11:32:48 PM · #56
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...Also, of course, we are all forgetting it was the pagans who actually persecuted, tortured, and killed the Christians first...


Here's a little history, The Saxon Wars which were central to the christianization of Europe. And here's a little excerpt for the larger context:

"The Saxon Wars can be considered religious, in that Charlemagne proclaimed it a war to convert the pagans of Saxony to Christianity, reminiscent of the later crusades. Although it was never formally proclaimed a crusade, it has been suggested that the Saxon wars were the main inspiration for the later proclamation of crusades against Islam, and certainly against pagan states such as Lithuania. The Saxon Wars also led to a domino effect of pagan states in Central Europe, such as Poland converting to Christianity."

Message edited by author 2009-01-01 23:33:25.
01/02/2009 12:18:29 AM · #57
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Just because I don't share your version doesn't mean I need a valium and/or a cruise.


I could be wrong but those comments that you refer to were not made because of your views but because of the way those views were delivered. To some it might even seem like you're trying to force these views down Christians' throats... Right or wrong that's the perception I'm getting.

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 00:20:34.
01/02/2009 12:18:38 AM · #58
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...
Also, of course, we are all forgetting it was the pagans who actually persecuted, tortured, and killed the Christians first.


Of course...how could we forget and that of course excuses all of the slaughter and suffering inflicted in the name of Christ, after all, there's nothing about torturing and killing that's in conflict with Jesus' message, is there?

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I always get a kick of out people who like to bloody the nose of Christianity and feel it somehow diminishes the faith. Yes, people have done bad to other people in the past. GASP! Sometimes religion is involved, lots of times it isn't. Thank goodness we've put that behind us in the 20th and 21st centuries and now just efficiently kill each other for secular reasons.


More often than not, religion is at the core of it.

I always get a kick out of how hypocritical Christians are when it come to acknowledging the depth of the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christ.

I wish I could agree it's behind us, but I'd have to say it's just less obvious.
01/02/2009 12:38:07 AM · #59
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

More often than not, religion is at the core of it.


I call complete and utter bullshit on this. I'll tell you what, you name the conflict or crusade or whatever and a reasonable account of the deathtoll and I'll double you easy. List all you can. This is the biggest friggin myth perpetrated by the humanists. And if you just look at recent history, say 200 years or so, it's not even close. 10 to 1 I bet. At least.

I'm callin' you out Spaz. Let's see what's behind your statement above. I'm guessing nothing but humanistic rhetoric.
01/02/2009 04:21:51 AM · #60
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

More often than not, religion is at the core of it.


I call complete and utter bullshit on this. I'll tell you what, you name the conflict or crusade or whatever and a reasonable account of the deathtoll and I'll double you easy. List all you can. This is the biggest friggin myth perpetrated by the humanists. And if you just look at recent history, say 200 years or so, it's not even close. 10 to 1 I bet. At least.

I'm callin' you out Spaz. Let's see what's behind your statement above. I'm guessing nothing but humanistic rhetoric.


Really?

If it's a myth as you claim, the onus is on you to bust it.

Go ahead.

And even if you're marginally correct, so what? I'll still bet you that the death toll for people being killed over religion is HUGE. But, like I said, what's a few massacred heretics as long as they're killed in Christ's name, right?

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 05:11:58.
01/02/2009 05:40:24 AM · #61
Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Just because I don't share your version doesn't mean I need a valium and/or a cruise.


Originally posted by yanko:

I could be wrong but those comments that you refer to were not made because of your views but because of the way those views were delivered. To some it might even seem like you're trying to force these views down Christians' throats... Right or wrong that's the perception I'm getting.

It just seems to me that any time I mention that I'm not in agreement with the status quo as the Christians see it, or mention that not the whole world shares their beliefs, I get accused of Christian bashing or being rabid.

The only point I try to make is that there are other people, with other beliefs, who have just as much right to them, and yet I keep hearing, "Hey, just go with the flow, this is the way it's done.".

And as soon as I say, "No, I don't choose to.", I'm un-American, 'cause this country is founded on Christian principles (Which it's not.), I'm a grinch 'cause I don't like Christmas, (I like Christmas in PRINCIPLE, just not what it's become.), or I'm Christian-bashing because I want people to realize that there are other points of view out there.......and that it isn't always about them just because they've hd such long run with it.
01/02/2009 05:51:09 AM · #62
Spaz, I think you hit it on the head. People who don't want to celebrate Christmas in all it's crass commercialism don't have to. It would be cool if they'd leave the rest of us alone to have some fun, though. Celebrate Christmas however you want, even if that means focusing on good works rather than gifts.

Some of the arguments I'm reading here sound eerily similar to the "I hate Valentine's Day" arguments. "Oh, I'm awesome to my S/O all the time and I don't like being told when to be romantic..." These people aren't mad because they are "being told when to be romantic" - they are angry because they don't appear generous and Valentine's Day is just when other people notice it.

It seems to me that if you tell me that you are awesome to your friends and family every day that you wouldn't have a problem being awesome to them on a day when everybody else is awesome to *their* friends and family.
01/02/2009 05:51:49 AM · #63
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I always get a kick of out people who like to bloody the nose of Christianity and feel it somehow diminishes the faith. Yes, people have done bad to other people in the past. GASP! Sometimes religion is involved, lots of times it isn't. Thank goodness we've put that behind us in the 20th and 21st centuries and now just efficiently kill each other for secular reasons.


Originally posted by Spazmo99:

More often than not, religion is at the core of it.

I always get a kick out of how hypocritical Christians are when it come to acknowledging the depth of the atrocities committed by Christians in the name of Christ.

I wish I could agree it's behind us, but I'd have to say it's just less obvious.

What I don't get is this proclivity to accuse anyone who mentions some of the horrors and general sad history of the Christian faith as being rabid, bashing, or trying to " bloody the nose of Christianity".

It's not always adversarial; sometimes it's just reminding you that the rosy picture you want us all to believe simply isn't true.

And unlike the MAJORITY of Christians, and certainly most that I've met, we're simply trying to get you to acknowledge the facts.

Nobody's trying to destroy your faith, tell you how to think, or change your beliefs.

We just want you to acknowledge history and quit trying to dress it up. It is what it is, and the way to change IS to change.

Just be honest, and fair, and quit treating other people as lesser beings if they don't share your views.

It's not just Christianity, either.......there is a history of killinhg in the name of God from many religions.
01/02/2009 06:03:23 AM · #64
Originally posted by L2:

Spaz, I think you hit it on the head. People who don't want to celebrate Christmas in all it's crass commercialism don't have to. It would be cool if they'd leave the rest of us alone to have some fun, though. Celebrate Christmas however you want, even if that means focusing on good works rather than gifts.

But that's not reasonable. Why does the rest of the world have to do it that day/season just because you say it's a good thing?

Why can't we do it as we fell right about it and not have you insist that we should go along?

Don't you see how unreasonable that is?

We're not saying don't celebrate; we're just telling you to leave US alone and not tell us to go along, "'Cause it's uch a good thing.".

Originally posted by L2:

Some of the arguments I'm reading here sound eerily similar to the "I hate Valentine's Day" arguments. "Oh, I'm awesome to my S/O all the time and I don't like being told when to be romantic..." These people aren't mad because they are "being told when to be romantic" - they are angry because they don't appear generous and Valentine's Day is just when other people notice it.

That's disrespectful and incorrect.

I, for one, am annoyed because people force their holidays on others.

I choose when to be spontaneous to my wife, and let me tell you something, after 30 years, we are still quite happy, and the best of friends BECAUSE we work at it to keep the relationship alive and real.

We truly and genuinely like each other, and that's something that doesn't happen if you don't work the 100/100 relationship that it takes to make a good marriage.

Who are you to tell people how they think and feel?

What is this attitude that just because some of us don't like to be told what to do makes us not generous of heart and mind?

Originally posted by L2:

It seems to me that if you tell me that you are awesome to your friends and family every day that you wouldn't have a problem being awesome to them on a day when everybody else is awesome to *their* friends and family.

See, that's the thing.....it ISN'T everybody else. How presumptuous and arrogant!

When's the last time you showed respect and acknowledgement for someone else outside your faith and beliefs?

You don't have the right to tell people how to be and then castigate them when they refuse!

Just accept that and quit casting aspersions on them when they call you on it.
01/02/2009 06:43:14 AM · #65
Originally posted by NikonJeb:


Just accept that and quit casting aspersions on them when they call you on it.


Absolutely not! For the record, I was "calling out -- back." Your original post said:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

...
What I object to is having someone ram their particular bent of how and when this should happen down my throat, and putting their spin on how *I* am supposed to be and act according to THEIR beliefs....


Isn't "someone ramming their particular bent of how and when this should happen..." exactly what YOU are doing?

I'm perfectly happy to let everyone celebrate Christmas however they want, even if it means not celebrating in a traditional way. My argument is the same as yours - leave everyone alone to do whatever they want.

If someone wants to leave Christ out of Christmas because of whatever reason, fine. If someone doesn't want to give presents, fine. To encourage everyone else to should show the "Christmas spirit" each and every day, also fine.

To impose a particular belief system on others by pressuring them to behave in a particular way on a particular day is wrong no matter which side one comes from.

To start out saying "I hate this being rammed down my throat" and then proceeding to ram the flip side of the coin down other people's throat is pretty weak.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

....
Flame suit SECURELY fastened!............8>)


I demand you put the flame suit back on before you explode. :)

01/02/2009 07:34:53 AM · #66
Originally posted by L2:

I'm perfectly happy to let everyone celebrate Christmas however they want, even if it means not celebrating in a traditional way. My argument is the same as yours - leave everyone alone to do whatever they want.

If someone wants to leave Christ out of Christmas because of whatever reason, fine. If someone doesn't want to give presents, fine. To encourage everyone else to should show the "Christmas spirit" each and every day, also fine.

To impose a particular belief system on others by pressuring them to behave in a particular way on a particular day is wrong no matter which side one comes from.

I'm confused.....

I am 100% in agreement with what you're saying.....

Was that unclear that I meant what you've stated above?
01/02/2009 11:28:04 AM · #67
Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

More often than not, religion is at the core of it.


I call complete and utter bullshit on this. I'll tell you what, you name the conflict or crusade or whatever and a reasonable account of the deathtoll and I'll double you easy. List all you can. This is the biggest friggin myth perpetrated by the humanists. And if you just look at recent history, say 200 years or so, it's not even close. 10 to 1 I bet. At least.

I'm callin' you out Spaz. Let's see what's behind your statement above. I'm guessing nothing but humanistic rhetoric.


Really?

If it's a myth as you claim, the onus is on you to bust it.

Go ahead.

And even if you're marginally correct, so what? I'll still bet you that the death toll for people being killed over religion is HUGE. But, like I said, what's a few massacred heretics as long as they're killed in Christ's name, right?


Hahaha. That's a new one. You make the claim, but since I say it's false I gotta do the work? That's rich. I can't do the work though unless you give me a number of what you think is HUGE and what it's based on. I see you are apparently too lazy to do such a thing and so I'll simply declare victory here and now.

You see, too often I see stupid claims posted with nothing to back them up but a vitriolic and cynical attitude toward religion. The easily swayed fall right in step. Jeb seems to think I'm now simply ignoring "facts" although I doubt he has any information on this subject either.

For the record I have NEVER denied the harm done in the name of religion. I fully acknowledge it and know it is wrong. I just call BS on the idea you are trying to present that a) Religion does far more harm than good b) the world would be much more peaceful without it and c) religion has been responsible for most of the ills of history.

Still waiting for those numbers...
01/02/2009 11:34:48 AM · #68
Excellent rant ' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/21.gif', '/') + 1) . ' NikonJeb. ---

The people who 'hate' Christmas are always going off on a rant. People who 'love' Christmas seldom do, so I decided to be one of those. I love Christmas. I love the whole holiday season, starting with Halloween, endiding with Valentine's Day. Summer is just a time of waiting for the winter holidays.

I love everything about Winter. The long nights. The clouds. The sharp cold wind. Winter sunsets. The bare tree branches. Warm clothing. I love all the winter food. I love the idea of gathering & harvesting & then spending the Winter enjoying all of it. I love the Christmas Parades. I love all the Christmas music (I don't work in a Mall). I love it when the Christmas dispslays go up right on the heels of the Halloween displays. I love thinking about presents to give people. I don't actually give them to anyone any more, because everyone I know 'hates' Christmas, but I still love thinking about it. It's distressful to be surrounded by all the grumpiness, but if I don't mention the word Christmas to anyone, I can get by OK.

There's a reason so many different religious groups have a winter ceremony, including retail (if it's not too much of a stretch to think of retail as a religion). It's a good time of year to have something good to look forward to, plan for, enjoy, & look back upon.

There are quite a few summer holidays, too. But nobody 'hates' being forced to celetrate the founding of our nation on a certain date, or any of the other sumemr holidays. People just love to hate Christmas.
01/02/2009 11:56:22 AM · #69
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...For the record I have NEVER denied the harm done in the name of religion. I fully acknowledge it and know it is wrong. I just call BS on the idea you are trying to present that a) Religion does far more harm than good b) the world would be much more peaceful without it and c) religion has been responsible for most of the ills of history...

Religion is responsible for mass genocide across history. Take for examples the invasion of the Americas and wholesale slaughter of the native peoples, followed by their subsequent forced-conversion to Catholicism and European ways of life. If that alone doesn't offer enough numbers for you, then you're not looking very hard. Continuing on, religion was a major force in the settlement of the US and was a contributing factor to the Revolutionary War (not saying it was the sole reason, mind you, just a factor). WWII certainly involved religion as a factor. I hardly even need to mention the Crusades, or the recent terrorist attacks, all of which involve religious motivations.

As for your point B, see the above. Without religion, much of the horrors I just listed wouldn't have been able to occur, at least not as we know them. Would they still have happened? Some of them, almost certainly - man will always thirst for power and control. But no one would have been wiped out for worshiping a different deity. And regarding point C, we just made a list of awful things in history and religion was part of them...frankly, I can't think of many awful things that it wasn't part of.

So yes, in conclusion, I think it's safe to say that it does more harm than good, when you consider that the harm tends to be wide-ranging and on a grand scale, while the good is often small, incidental acts. And, looking back, most of what religion thought was "good" resulted in the destruction of pre-existing traditions, cultures, and entire civilizations. So unless you think genocide is good.....
01/02/2009 12:08:14 PM · #70
Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...For the record I have NEVER denied the harm done in the name of religion. I fully acknowledge it and know it is wrong. I just call BS on the idea you are trying to present that a) Religion does far more harm than good b) the world would be much more peaceful without it and c) religion has been responsible for most of the ills of history...

Religion is responsible for mass genocide across history. Take for examples the invasion of the Americas and wholesale slaughter of the native peoples, followed by their subsequent forced-conversion to Catholicism and European ways of life. If that alone doesn't offer enough numbers for you, then you're not looking very hard. Continuing on, religion was a major force in the settlement of the US and was a contributing factor to the Revolutionary War (not saying it was the sole reason, mind you, just a factor). WWII certainly involved religion as a factor. I hardly even need to mention the Crusades, or the recent terrorist attacks, all of which involve religious motivations.

As for your point B, see the above. Without religion, much of the horrors I just listed wouldn't have been able to occur, at least not as we know them. Would they still have happened? Some of them, almost certainly - man will always thirst for power and control. But no one would have been wiped out for worshiping a different deity. And regarding point C, we just made a list of awful things in history and religion was part of them...frankly, I can't think of many awful things that it wasn't part of.

So yes, in conclusion, I think it's safe to say that it does more harm than good, when you consider that the harm tends to be wide-ranging and on a grand scale, while the good is often small, incidental acts. And, looking back, most of what religion thought was "good" resulted in the destruction of pre-existing traditions, cultures, and entire civilizations. So unless you think genocide is good.....


You just talk it generalities. I'll fill some numbers in for you. The crusades, according to wikipedia, "Over the course of 200 years, some 2 million Europeans died in the Middle East crusades.[45][46] The conquest of Prussia was accomplished with much bloodshed over more than 50 years, during which native Prussians who remained unbaptised were subjugated, killed, or exiled. To replace the partially exterminated native population, the Teutonic Order encouraged the immigration of German settlers. The Albigensian Crusade killed an estimated 1 million people, not only Cathars but much of the population of southern France." So we're talking 3 million people. Sounds like a big number, but it's tiny.

Saying that the Spanish invaded South America to convert the population as "the root cause" is also BS. But even if we pretend it was, how many people are we talking about? Should we throw on another 3 million?

So we're up to 6 million people? Should I just round that up to 10 million? Would you be satisified? Is that a fair extent to the human toll religion has caused?

Message edited by author 2009-01-02 12:09:28.
01/02/2009 12:15:56 PM · #71
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by OdysseyF22:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

...For the record I have NEVER denied the harm done in the name of religion. I fully acknowledge it and know it is wrong. I just call BS on the idea you are trying to present that a) Religion does far more harm than good b) the world would be much more peaceful without it and c) religion has been responsible for most of the ills of history...

Religion is responsible for mass genocide across history. Take for examples the invasion of the Americas and wholesale slaughter of the native peoples, followed by their subsequent forced-conversion to Catholicism and European ways of life. If that alone doesn't offer enough numbers for you, then you're not looking very hard. Continuing on, religion was a major force in the settlement of the US and was a contributing factor to the Revolutionary War (not saying it was the sole reason, mind you, just a factor). WWII certainly involved religion as a factor. I hardly even need to mention the Crusades, or the recent terrorist attacks, all of which involve religious motivations.

As for your point B, see the above. Without religion, much of the horrors I just listed wouldn't have been able to occur, at least not as we know them. Would they still have happened? Some of them, almost certainly - man will always thirst for power and control. But no one would have been wiped out for worshiping a different deity. And regarding point C, we just made a list of awful things in history and religion was part of them...frankly, I can't think of many awful things that it wasn't part of.

So yes, in conclusion, I think it's safe to say that it does more harm than good, when you consider that the harm tends to be wide-ranging and on a grand scale, while the good is often small, incidental acts. And, looking back, most of what religion thought was "good" resulted in the destruction of pre-existing traditions, cultures, and entire civilizations. So unless you think genocide is good.....


You just talk it generalities. I'll fill some numbers in for you. The crusades, according to wikipedia, "Over the course of 200 years, some 2 million Europeans died in the Middle East crusades.[45][46] The conquest of Prussia was accomplished with much bloodshed over more than 50 years, during which native Prussians who remained unbaptised were subjugated, killed, or exiled. To replace the partially exterminated native population, the Teutonic Order encouraged the immigration of German settlers. The Albigensian Crusade killed an estimated 1 million people, not only Cathars but much of the population of southern France." So we're talking 3 million people. Sounds like a big number, but it's tiny.

Saying that the Spanish invaded South America to convert the population as "the root cause" is also BS. But even if we pretend it was, how many people are we talking about? Should we throw on another 3 million?

So we're up to 6 million people? Should I just round that up to 10 million? Would you be satisified? Is that a fair extent to the human toll religion has caused?


I personally think even 1 person is too many to be killed in the name of religion. I also think it's too many to die in the name of anything (politics, border issues, race, color, sex, etc.). Murder is murder, no matter your reasons.
01/02/2009 12:17:10 PM · #72
Originally posted by Kelli:

I personally think even 1 person is too many to be killed in the name of religion. I also think it's too many to die in the name of anything (politics, border issues, race, color, sex, etc.). Murder is murder, no matter your reasons.


Well, I fully agree. That's not what's being argued though. Spaz made the unsupported assertion that "more often than not" religion is at the core of conflicts.
01/02/2009 12:19:45 PM · #73
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Kelli:

I personally think even 1 person is too many to be killed in the name of religion. I also think it's too many to die in the name of anything (politics, border issues, race, color, sex, etc.). Murder is murder, no matter your reasons.


Well, I fully agree. That's not what's being argued though. Spaz made the unsupported assertion that "more often than not" religion is at the core of conflicts.


LOL! I know, but I was bored and wanted to throw some wood on the fire.
01/02/2009 12:27:20 PM · #74
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Jeb seems to think I'm now simply ignoring "facts" although I doubt he has any information on this subject either.

Try this: Historical Body Count

It seems to be kind of a laundry list of nasty stuff perpetrated on each other from wars, religion, and government.

We're pretty nasty critters, us humans......8>(
01/02/2009 12:27:39 PM · #75
Originally posted by Kelli:

[quote=DrAchoo] ...LOL! I know, but I was bored and wanted to throw some wood on the fire.


Not the kind of person one would have negotiate a peace. :-/
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