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12/24/2008 10:31:00 AM · #1
I wonít reveal the name of the person who sent me this message but i felt like i had to post this dialogue here. I commented all the pictures in this challenge, and this was the only real complain i received. I would like people to see why (sometimes) newcomers like me feel like they are useless or not experient enough to comment.

"DPChallenge user XXXXX has sent you the following private message:

LOL at your comment on my image Pedro. I think your monitor needs calibration for I think it is too bright and that's why you're mistakenly thinking some images contain too much noise. When was the last time you calibrated your monitor? My two monitors were calibrated just last week and I do not see any noise whatsoever on my shot. Finally, your comment about the tree being dark is useless to me for that's what I wanted. You can't make empty comments like that in art, it's very subjective and personal.

You should also learn to phrase your comment in a more polite way.

No harm done and I can see that you're still very much new here so I won't unleash my pitbulls after you. lol

thanks for the comment.

cheers

XXXXXX

DPChallenge user pedrobop has sent you the following private message:

Well XXXX, i'm really sorry if ou feel that way about my comment...I tried to avoid being rude on my comments, and i apologied my self everytime i thought i was being rude. The way you call me a newcomer and say that my monitor is not calibrated enough for me to help you with my comments is kind of unpolite too, but i'm not taking this bad.
When you say i'm thinking wrong about some images which i think that contain too much noise, i really don't understand it because you are saying things you didn't even seen (the other comments). If you have the chance to read the thread about Bokeh V scores tomorrow you will see i'm not saying i'm right in all my opinions, but i'm just saying what i think, as a newcomer or not.
If the darkness on the tree was your intention and i gave bad comments about it, this is what a i think and i'm not changing it because it was your intention. Maybe my monitor isn't well calibrated as yours...maybe you are a great photographer who doesn't need "wrong" comments about noise on your photo, but you are participating challenges to receive comments and get voted, and i don't think you are right to be so offended about this. I don't think my comments are empty, since you were the only guy who got so "sad" about it, and i commented 214 photos. If they are so empty, i really don't understand why did you send me this PM.
And just by record...I didn't finish my comments and votes yet, since i didn't reviewed them again. I'm really sorry if you felt this way, i will take a look at my comments and this message tomorrow, but i really don't see reasons to change my vote or my sugestions by this moment. Sorry.

DPChallenge user XXXX has sent you the following private message:

First of all I didn't ask to change anything.

Secondly I am not offended at all dude and don't tell me I am please. Feedback on comments doesn't mean people are offended. But I won't have newcomers tell me my images are noisy when in fact they are not.

Thirdly, I think you're the one who's offended by me telling you your monitor is not well adjusted. All I wanted to do is help you dude but I see that you took offense to that so i'll just step aside from this and deal with your inexperience by not trying to help you out next time. :)

XXXXX

DPChallenge user pedrobop has sent you the following private message:
Well, i think you got me wrong again, because i'm the one trying to learn, even on my comments. I did got offended by your PM, because it sounded really ironic, and i may be unexperienced, but i'm not a child. You could have asked me to review my comments because i was wrong at some points, but not talk to me like i shouldn't be commenting. It's by PM like yours that newcomers like me doesn't feel like they can comment, and by the way..You can be a great photographer, like i see really good photos in your profile, but you are a member since eight months ago, and i think you should accept all the comments, even those you don't agree, because your answer sounded really unexperienced too.
Again, you said that i was being unpolite..but i can't take good advices or not offensive intentions on things like "Finally, your comment about the tree being dark is useless to me for that's what I wanted. You can't make empty comments like that in art, it's very subjective and personal.".

The two photos which i commented that the tree is noisy and dark are noisy and dark for me, and i won't change my opion in this case, i may ask some experienced friends about it later, but i'm not changind it for now. If you don't have the modesty to receive newcomers comments about your photo beeing OOF, noisy or dark, i'm really sorry for you."


I really think that this kind of message is not the kind of thing that made me like DP challenge, some of you may disagree, but it's just my opinion.
12/24/2008 10:41:22 AM · #2
sorry that you had a bad experience with comments made on a challenge entry ... I've gotten several 'less than polite' responses to comments that I've made also ... I just chalk it up to a person that over-values his/her own work and can't take constructive criticism or doesn't value another person's opinion. I've learned a LOT from commenting and don't let the comment scrooges get me down ... hopefully you'll do the same ... after all, it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. One thing you may consider is becoming a 'bag head' while the challenge is in voting ... that will prevent any nasty PM's during voting and maybe the photographer will have time to calm down before sending those little zingers...
12/24/2008 10:45:53 AM · #3
First of all, did you realize that we can all read the comments you have left and received, so it is easy to figure out about whom you're speaking, despite your graciously leaving out the name?

Secondly, I like your comments. I went through your "comments left" list and you seem to take great care and deliberation in each image. Giving an honest, helpful, yet polite comment is very tedious and difficult to do. I applaud you for your efforts in making each one meaningful.

While I might not agree with each of your critiques, I would love to get one of them on my image. It will show me another side from which to view my image.

I'm sure you're a bit put-off by the response to your comment... but remember: This is just one response to one of the comments you've left. I'm sure there are many other people who are thrilled and helped by the comments you've left.

While I think the dialogue should have happened AFTER voting, I would not mind getting the artist's response to my comment, either. I'm here to discuss photography and to learn from it, so all civil comments on my photograhs or my critiques of photographs are appreciated, weighed for validity, and cataloged in my brain for future use. *grin*

I do see your point that this is a bit of a turnoff to making you want to continue commenting, but I urge you to let it go... and keep on! We need all of the genuine commenters we can get!

Merry Christmas to you!
12/24/2008 10:59:16 AM · #4
Please do continue to comment! Don't let one response (out of over 200!) change your mind. And thanks for commenting on an entire challenge - that's a lot of work, but I think it's worth the effort.
12/24/2008 11:01:55 AM · #5
I was wondering if you would mind explaining your definition of "noisy"? You said that about my photo and I know by my definition it's not. So maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.

I think it's great that you are taking the time to leave constructive criticism! It really does help to see how others perceive our photos. Remember, that even at your best moment, someone is always going to disagree with you :) So keep that in mind and just keep doing what you are doing.
12/24/2008 11:59:55 AM · #6
If you are concerned about misusing terminology or being restricted to commenting based on narrow challenge definitions, I recommend reading the following tutorials until you are more comfortable being critical of techniques:

commenting 1 commenting 2
12/24/2008 12:09:22 PM · #7
I didn't have a problem with the comment you left on my bokeh entry. I expected an "I dont get it" response from many people, and I was glad to get some feedback. What I dislike is low votes with no explanations, especially when it is an entry that I think is pretty good. (My bokeh entry was NOT one of those.)

I just had a look over most of the comments you left on the bokeh challenge. I don't think anybody would have questioned those comments if they had come from someone with a higher average and maybe a ribbon or two. I think some may have looked at your profile and came off feeling you were "throwing stones at glass houses". No reason you should not leave such comments as well. I think you did a great commenting effort on that challenge. You identified a lot of things in the images that did not work for you and you probably got a few things out of it that you can now apply to your own photography.

You never know how it will go, some folks catch on pretty quick. You could be one of "those people" who will be popping out ribbon winners in 6 months while I'm still floundering in the low to mid 5's.

Message edited by author 2008-12-24 12:25:37.
12/24/2008 12:21:10 PM · #8
Do not let the few people who can not take comments the way they are meant detour you from commenting, comments are just your impression of thier photo, there is no right or wrong. If they take it wrong I think they need to step back and think about what they can take away from your comment to help them reach more voters, I have had comments that I personnaly did not feel helped but I still appreciated the fact that someone took the time to at least tell me how they felt. Keep up the commenting and do not let the PMS'er get to you.
12/24/2008 12:23:26 PM · #9
I think perhaps your definition of "bokeh" and "noisy" are quite different from that of others on this site. I think your feedback is valuable, but you may need to look at the words you're choosing and really evaluate whether those are the correct words for what you're describing.

I looked through some of your comments and noticed that you were quite critical of out of focus aspects of people's photos, while simultaneously saying that you saw no bokeh in many of those shots. That leaves me scratching my head, as I saw gorgeous bokeh in some of the images where you saw none.

I'm wondering if you're using the word "noisy" as I would "busy" or "cluttered." To me, noisy images are those which have grain related to boosting up the ISO too high. It appears that the images you described as "noisy" are those which have a lot going on in the image, and perhaps a distracting composition.

I think commenting on the images is one of the best ways to learn, and I think you can also learn from the responses to feedback that you receive. Your reaction and opinion to an image is totally valid, and I think everyone here appreciates receiving comments, even if they disagree with your comments.
12/24/2008 12:29:55 PM · #10
9 Guidelines for Giving and Receiving Feedback

Commenting for Beginnners (A Non-Analytical Approach)
12/24/2008 12:39:15 PM · #11
This site would be pretty useless without comments. They are the catalyst and feedback that helps us improve our skills and to learn what is pleasing to viewers (or not) in our images.
I appreciate all of the comments that I get, because it lets me see how others interact with my images. Even the bad ones show that the shot got a reaction. The technical points in my images are not always what they should be because I don't use Photoshop, and I often post images that have value just for their content. I still feel ok with the comments that point that out.
To the OP, Keep commenting if you have time, it is good for all of us here.
12/24/2008 12:40:10 PM · #12
art is subjective,people are going to give feedback based on THEIR reaction to it. the artist holds the artwork as dear to them,naturally so, and when someone does not "see" what they are trying to get across sometimes feelings get hurt. monitor calibration can be an issue but i laugh that so much emphasis is placed on it. were you to hang a picture in a gallery and we all looked at we would all still see it differently. these types of issues will never go away.
12/24/2008 01:11:31 PM · #13
I say keep going, you were one of 3 people to comment on mine and one of to to say anything useful. While you missed the fact I had a foreground subject and bg subject you still offerd a good opinion.So bruh of the other bozo and keep going :) (note I said other bozo as I am one too ;)
12/24/2008 01:52:47 PM · #14
Well...maybe i was too harsh on my comments, my PMs and my messages here...I will try to review some of my opinions and attitudes. The guy who told me those things looks really sad because of this here, and i'm feeling bad about this.
I'll probably make more mistakes with my comments, but it was truly just my honest impression about the image. By the rules of the two guides showned by Paul Marcus i don't think i'm acting wrong, but i'm sorry if i was unfair to some people.
I don't plan to stop commenting...But i'll try to be more modest when commenting, maybe that's the problem.
12/24/2008 02:13:26 PM · #15
Originally posted by pedrobop:

But i'll try to be more modest when commenting, maybe that's the problem.


Perhaps that was it. Maybe your comments came off as if you knew better and then they got offended after looking at your own entries. Maybe the thing is to make sure to phrase things with language that make it clear this is your opinion and not a hard judgement. So far, I've not gotten any of those nasty responses to my comments, so I must suppose I am doing it diplomatically.
12/24/2008 02:19:41 PM · #16
Just read most of your comments and I think you were spot on with them. You have a good understanding of Bokeh and how it should play a part in the overall photo. I didn't see any instances of rudeness, but I did see apologies when you were stightly harsh.

I feel you did a very good job with your comments, you were fair and made intelligent and observant remarks that anyone would be happy to receive. Well done and keep it up, I am impressed by your awareness and eye for a good shot:))

Message edited by author 2008-12-24 14:20:16.
12/24/2008 03:01:59 PM · #17
Don't let the thin skinned people turn you off from commenting. This place needs more people like you.

12/24/2008 03:07:24 PM · #18
Originally posted by Mick:

Don't let the thin skinned people turn you off from commenting. This place needs more people like you.


seconded here...
12/24/2008 03:08:10 PM · #19
Originally posted by TCGuru:

Originally posted by Mick:

Don't let the thin skinned people turn you off from commenting. This place needs more people like you.


seconded here...


Thirded. Welcome aboard, keep it up.
12/24/2008 03:13:50 PM · #20
Pedro has nothing to apologize for, that's a fact. The respondent he quotes in the first post is out of line.

However, Pedro also seems to be coming to realize what some of us never "get": that you can say the exact, same thing two different ways and one statement will be accepted while the other seems like a slap in the face.

For example: "The sky's too dark here," vs "It seems to me the sky's too dark here." There's actually a world of difference between those two statements, emotively.

"Try dodging the face and burning in the BG to make the image pop," vs "I wonder if you considered dodging the face and burning in the BG? This might have given added pop to the image."

In the one example, the commenter is expressing an opinion instead of an absolute. In the other example, the commenter is giving the photographer credit for a thought process; indeed, the photographer may have considered these things and rejected them, for whatever reason.

R.
12/24/2008 03:19:56 PM · #21
' . substr('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', strrpos('//www.dpchallenge.com/images/user_icon/31.gif', '/') + 1) . ' pedrobop, please feel free to comment on my photos all you want, they are all perfect so I am sure there is nothing you find wrong with any of them.....:P Welcome aboard and please comment to your hearts content!
12/24/2008 03:26:09 PM · #22
Pedro knows how to leave a tactful, instructive, comment. Keep it up!
12/24/2008 03:27:21 PM · #23
Go, Pedro! :-)
12/24/2008 03:49:59 PM · #24
Welcome to DPC!

First, I agree with what everyone above said about a) commenting on whatever you think and b) try to express your opinions in a way that shows you know they're your opinions.

I think there may be a bit of a language issue here. I know several people who sound much harsher than they intend because English is a foreign language to them, so the subtle parts get lost sometimes.

Either way, feel free to comment on all of my photos. :)

I also think there may be a definition issue. DPC has had raging debates about what's bokeh vs. what's out of focus (and whether that distinction even exists), but there really is a difference between noisy and not.

This is a noisy shot. See how the wall on the left looks like it has little spots, when it's actually all one color?
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/789/120/625123.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/789/120/625123.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

This is not. The black areas are pure black - no spots:
' . substr('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/857/120/676289.jpg', strrpos('//images.dpchallenge.com/images_challenge/0-999/857/120/676289.jpg', '/') + 1) . '

It might help if you could post an example of a shot you thought was noisy and explained where you're seeing the noise. Maybe we can all help figure this out together.
12/24/2008 03:52:47 PM · #25
Put a bag on your head - by the time our name is revealed at the end of the challenge the hotheads will have clamed done and not send as many retorts.
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