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12/23/2008 02:59:48 PM · #176 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by JMart:
For every area of art there may be a never ending struggle balancing between things like being popular, original, classic, and just saying what we as artists want to say. It seems clear to me that the DPC format emphasizes popularity of images and it's nearly impossible for any one of us to educate voters the way we might want them to be educated on how to select what is popular here. Recognizing that, it's also nice to see that the DPC community includes some people who are happy to sacrifice DPC popularity for other artistic merits. I believe some of those folks here are better than Brittany Spears photography equivalents & I'll gladly learn what I can from them. None the less, the frustration you're voicing makes perfect sense (although my photography is not at a level where I've run out of basics to learn yet - I'm still trying to learn how to sing in tune :P). |
Not picking on you John, but just using your post as a launching pad for a few thoughts.
1) I'm uncomfortable with the idea of "educating the voters the way we might want them to be educated". How would that even look? High art, by definition, only appeals to a select few. Photography is no different. Why should we assume that "just saying what we as artists want to say" ought to be greeted with open arms? Some things artists will say will resonate with some people. Some things artists will say will resonate with very few people. Is it the fault of the audience or the artist if the latter is true? Seeming randomly, while reading the wiki on truffles today, I came across an apt quote about the attempt to cultivate truffles which can command $2000/pound.
"The most learned men have sought to ascertain the secret, and fancied they discovered the seed. Their promises, however, were vain, and no planting was ever followed by a harvest. This perhaps is all right, for as one of the great values of truffles is their dearness, perhaps they would be less highly esteemed if they were cheaper.
"Rejoice, my friend," said I, "a superb lace is about to be manufactured at a very low price."
"Ah!" replied she, "think you, if it be cheap, that any one would wear it?"
The point is that this "photography for artists", if it gained wide approval on DPC, might ironically no longer qualify as "photography for artists".
2) A challenge in the format of DPC is about the worst medium for photography that tries to convey the artist's message. We get nothing but the title to know where the artist wants to take us and the shot is lost in a group of 100-400 other shots. How is this EVER going to benefit the artist with a message? Why are we trying to cram a square peg into a round hole? The better and proper venue for such photos is side challenges or individual threads. The niche audience that the photo speaks to will seek their own and congregate in such places. |
In general, that's a "bingo" post Doc. Very good observations.But nevertheless, within the context of the side challenges etc, education can and should be part of the mix. The more we begin to perceive of WHY artists do certain things, of WHAT they are trying to say/accomplish, the more we begin to appreciate their art. And where the seeds of appreciation get sown, the groundwork is laid, bit by bit, for more "sophisticated" voting on a broader scale.
R.
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12/23/2008 03:18:08 PM · #177 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
High art, by definition, only appeals to a select few. |
In general, that's a "bingo" post Doc. Very good observations.But nevertheless, within the context of the side challenges etc, education can and should be part of the mix. The more we begin to perceive of WHY artists do certain things, of WHAT they are trying to say/accomplish, the more we begin to appreciate their art. And where the seeds of appreciation get sown, the groundwork is laid, bit by bit, for more "sophisticated" voting on a broader scale.
R. |
"High art, by definition, only appeals to a select few."
Doc-the only thing I'd tweak in that statement is the word "appeals" and change it to understood or include it in the sentence.
Which leads to Bears point "WHY artists do certain things" or in other words their intent. A good deal of people have a tendency to pass right by the artists/photographers intent and start in on the technical's, often missing the entire point of the image.
Ubique posted an image in another thread where the comments I thought were, off the charts foolish...useless drivel to anybody who does what they do for a reason.
The photographer stated after the vote that he was trying to show vastness through an image using a "Little Sailboat". There were five calls that the sail boat was too small and others that thought the sky was too vast. The noise wasn't that overpowering to be an issue in anyway but that too was a sticking point. They missed the whole point...the photographers intent was completely pissed on and they managed to regurgitate all the silly crap that some of us find repulsive.
All for now...
Message edited by author 2008-12-23 20:43:57. |
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12/23/2008 03:25:22 PM · #178 |
I was very excited to vote on the Master's challenge...because I saw this challenge as an opportunity for each artist to express their character. The photogs of this challenge would not be hung up on the voters; technical ability; or other hindrances as those of us who live in the Abyss of Mediocrity. These people are secure in their artistic hearts and will be present something ELUSIVE that cannot be be borrowed, purchased, stolen, or given away. These artists are going to present something that has to be EARNED...an expression of their artistic CHARACTER simmered through countless hours of hard work to cultivate their talents. I was not disappointed.
So, it seems to my puzzled brain, that the lesson of the experience comes from within...not validation from without and learning the full realm of photography is really beyond the scope of DPC and in reality will probably take several lifetime of study with the Masters. However, if a photograph is an expression of experience, then DPC becomes a wonderful platform to share those experiences. The works of such photographers as  Gordon or  JJBeguin or ::name your personal favorites:: then become sign posts...and guide us all to expand our personal boxes to encompass a different direction and perhaps even a new horizon. Do I really need to know all the technical aspects of the "Box" in order to jump out of it; break it; or enjoy it? Do I really need a box at all...
Personally, I loved Gordon's entry, but privately thought he should have entered a Ducky photo...but, nope, he is wayward soul and had to enter something wonderful and artistic...;-)
The entry by JJBeguin was the only photo from this challenge that became a personal favorite.
My apologies for this long note...I just had lots of thoughts.
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12/23/2008 03:54:10 PM · #179 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
The photographer stated after the vote that he was trying to show vastness through an image using a "Little Sailboat". There were five calls that the sail boat was too small and others that thought the sky was too vast. The noise wasn't that overpowering to be an issue in anyway but that too was a sticking point. They missed the whole point...the photographers intent completely pissed on and regurgitated all the silly crap that some of us find repulsive.
All for now... |
And you don't think it's possible the comments indicate the photographer failed to convey what they were trying to convey? Hell, a simple title change to a quote on vastness or even the title "Vast" would have likely cut the "piss on" comments in half. If the photographer intends to convey vastness and the comments all indicate they did not get this message, what does that tell me? |
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12/23/2008 04:27:32 PM · #180 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
A challenge in the format of DPC is about the worst medium for photography that tries to convey the artist's message. We get nothing but the title to know where the artist wants to take us and the shot is lost in a group of 100-400 other shots. How is this EVER going to benefit the artist with a message? Why are we trying to cram a square peg into a round hole? The better and proper venue for such photos is side challenges or individual threads. The niche audience that the photo speaks to will seek their own and congregate in such places. |
A challenge in the format of DPC is about the worst medium for photography that tries to convey the artist's message.
I'll politely disagree and promptly get Yanko'd. Why NOT put forth something in a challenge? You get lots of views that way, and those people who do "get it" or simply like it will get to see it. Not everyone participates or views side challenges. Of course, this assumes that the person submitting a shot trying to convey a message, or just perhaps be a bit off kilter, understands that the score will suffer. But there may be one or two viewers who see something in it, who come back, who take a bit longer look, who would never have seen it in a side challenge or individual discussion thread. It certainly doesn't hurt anything to enter an "artist's message" shot into a challenge, does it? |
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12/23/2008 04:30:16 PM · #181 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
And you don't think it's possible the comments indicate the photographer failed to convey what they were trying to convey? Hell, a simple title change to a quote on vastness or even the title "Vast" would have likely cut the "piss on" comments in half. If the photographer intends to convey vastness and the comments all indicate they did not get this message, what does that tell me? |
I think he did fine. Perhaps not on a silver platter but the image works.
I think the viewers missed it.
Monk said something along the lines of; Do what you do, don't compromise, let the people come to you, don't go to them. He didn't have a huge audience that understood his work at first but they eventually came around.
I use his way as a kind of mantra. People get it...some won't but they're coming around.
Message edited by author 2008-12-23 16:32:41. |
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12/23/2008 04:31:46 PM · #182 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
2) A challenge in the format of DPC is about the worst medium for photography that tries to convey the artist's message. We get nothing but the title to know where the artist wants to take us and the shot is lost in a group of 100-400 other shots. How is this EVER going to benefit the artist with a message? Why are we trying to cram a square peg into a round hole? The better and proper venue for such photos is side challenges or individual threads. The niche audience that the photo speaks to will seek their own and congregate in such places. |
You missed the most damning thing of all: giving a score to a photo. That is the opposite of art.
But to use your own example, DPC provides the mud in which to put artistic truffles. Art needs a context of conformity against which to rebel. |
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12/23/2008 04:33:00 PM · #183 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
It certainly doesn't hurt anything to enter an "artist's message" shot into a challenge, does it? |
Nothing. Unless you are going to complain about the uneducated masses who don't get it. Then it hurts plenty. |
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12/23/2008 04:38:23 PM · #184 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
It certainly doesn't hurt anything to enter an "artist's message" shot into a challenge, does it? |
Nothing. Unless you are going to complain about the uneducated masses who don't get it. Then it hurts plenty. |
I find it painful, at times.
Kinda like Brando in Apocalypse, head, hanging in hands (as the scores and comments roll in) repeating to myself...
The horror...the horror...
Message edited by author 2008-12-23 16:41:37. |
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12/23/2008 04:39:31 PM · #185 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
It certainly doesn't hurt anything to enter an "artist's message" shot into a challenge, does it? |
Nothing. Unless you are going to complain about the uneducated masses who don't get it. Then it hurts plenty. |
Really? I didn't get Yanko'd? I'm floored.... :-)
But seriously, who does it hurt to complain? Heck, complaining is a major activity around this place. |
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12/23/2008 04:48:23 PM · #186 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
It certainly doesn't hurt anything to enter an "artist's message" shot into a challenge, does it? |
Nothing. Unless you are going to complain about the uneducated masses who don't get it. Then it hurts plenty. |
Really? I didn't get Yanko'd? I'm floored.... :-)
But seriously, who does it hurt to complain? Heck, complaining is a major activity around this place. |
I was sorta saying it hurts the guy who entered it. If you have the attitude you exhibited going in, then that's great. You'll appreciate the few comments from the people who really get it and all will be well. If you go in assuming the rabble will appreciate your subtle yet powerful masterpiece, then you will be disappointed. It doesn't hurt the rest of the community any more than all the other bitching (of which I agree there is tons), although I do grow weary of being compared to Brittney Spears and the like simply because I can win ribbons.
Message edited by author 2008-12-23 16:49:06. |
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12/23/2008 05:14:38 PM · #187 |
But she's very wealthy, and when you grow weary you can smile knowing your work sells in galleries. :-)
I am not an artist, nor do I play one on TV. So I don't enter anything with messages, but there are few folks who sometimes like what I do (and to whom I regularly send checks and/or chocolate) and I enjoy shooting for challenges - gives me something to think about, to look for, to shoot. I also enjoy finding the odd or unusual shot here and there when voting challenges. Mostly I just enjoy taking pictures and looking at them, which doesn't have anything to do with Masters, now that I think about it... Carry on. |
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12/23/2008 05:24:44 PM · #188 |
I fully understand that entering what the photog considers 'Art' is not always the thing to do at dpc if your a vote hog however, I'm more than happy with the 12 fav's for my Masters pinhole entry - it has more fav's than my 2 ribbons this year.
For most of 2008 I've been shooting for votes and as long as my shoulders remain broad enough in 2009 I'll be shooting for myself :)
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12/23/2008 05:27:55 PM · #189 |
I'll keep on you about that, Andi. :-)
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12/23/2008 05:29:53 PM · #190 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
I'll keep on you about that, Andi. :-) |
lol Deb, I might renew my Zoo membership though ;) |
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12/23/2008 05:34:09 PM · #191 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
Originally posted by Melethia:
I'll keep on you about that, Andi. :-) |
lol Deb, I might renew my Zoo membership though ;) |
As long as you shoot with your pinhole or LB, OK. But no zooms! |
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12/23/2008 07:09:18 PM · #192 |
How did we get to a discussion about art? I thought we were talking about teaching? That is trying to raise everyone's knowledge, little by little by putting the challenges in a greater context. That way the average person would have more exposure to the history of photography and it's application. Wouldn't that make everyone a better photographer? A better voter? A better commenter? Wouldn't that have the potiential to increase greater appreciation over a wider range of photography?
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12/23/2008 08:30:45 PM · #193 |
Originally posted by yanko:
How did we get to a discussion about art? |
Somewhere I managed to drop Britney Spears name into the mix. Where else could a discussion possibly drift but to the subject of great art when she's involved? |
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12/23/2008 08:44:02 PM · #194 |
Originally posted by JaimeVinas:
[snip] I have had so many voters give me lower scores because they feel that i didnt follow some technical rule (like rule of thirds).
Rules in photography (like rules of thirds) are merely suggestions or guidelines to follow, but in no way are concrete to determine what is a good photo or not. I have seen some excellent centered or off centered photos. Sometimes it just looks better that way. Not everything has to be in the rule of thirds. I wish some understood why photographers decide to break the rules of technicalities instead of blindingly thinking...."beautiful photo, but this doesnt fall into the rule of thirds , so you get a 3" |
AMEN!!!!
When I see comments that include the phrase "violates the Rule of Thirds" I just feel sad that the person has placed such constraints on themselves, both in the viewing/enjoyment of images, and in the creation of their own images. |
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12/23/2008 08:48:48 PM · #195 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by yanko:
How did we get to a discussion about art? |
Somewhere I managed to drop Britney Spears name into the mix. Where else could a discussion possibly drift but to the subject of great art when she's involved? |
Surely her latest song Womanizer is art. She's even naked in the video. Nude = Art.
Message edited by author 2008-12-23 20:49:23.
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12/23/2008 10:37:16 PM · #196 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Gordon, am I right to assume you rather just let people figure things out on their own rather than have the site encourage or teach these things? |
No, pretty much not that. If you read back to the start of this branch of the thread I pointed out that some other people totally reject the notion of learning the rules first. Other people, not me so much. I'm too far gone to think that. It's too late for me. |
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12/23/2008 11:04:40 PM · #197 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Surely her latest song Womanizer is art. She's even naked in the video. Nude = Art. |
If the dude in that video is a Womanizer, Britney played the Enabler... |
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12/23/2008 11:17:34 PM · #198 |
I had a look at the images I gave 10's and interestingly enough there seems to be a theme:
I think I like monochrome shots. Just a guess... |
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12/23/2008 11:21:37 PM · #199 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Surely her latest song Womanizer is art. She's even naked in the video. Nude = Art. |
If the dude in that video is a Womanizer, Britney played the Enabler... |
Speaking of art and Britney Spears...
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12/27/2008 08:20:58 PM · #200 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by yanko:
Gordon, am I right to assume you rather just let people figure things out on their own rather than have the site encourage or teach these things? |
No, pretty much not that. If you read back to the start of this branch of the thread I pointed out that some other people totally reject the notion of learning the rules first. Other people, not me so much. I'm too far gone to think that. It's too late for me. |
Another post along those lines, mostly rejecting the idea that you 'have to learn the rules before you can break them'. Maybe there are no rules. Maybe the rules you learn get in the way of seeing what's actually in front of you, while you struggle to make it conform to what you've told it should look like.
Worth considering, at least. Conventional wisdom often is just convention, rather than wisdom after all. Maybe it is possible to teach photography and improve picture taking without coming up with some quick fix set of superficial tricks and tips to make your pictures look like all the others. Maybe there aren't rules, just good pictures.
Message edited by author 2008-12-27 20:25:05.
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