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12/16/2008 09:50:59 AM · #126 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
OK, I can agree with some of that. A) DPC does praise technicals. B) Photos of substance do have lasting appeal. I see lots of praise on emotional shots though. It's easiest to comment on technicals and that's probably why you see it done the most. Certainly if you are limiting your comments to 4-5 words which most are. All this being said, technically perfect shots are not automatically devoid of substance. Look at De Sousa's work. There is substance there in spades. Likewise, plenty of blurred, ugly shots have nothing to them. Even the ones that did it on purpose. |
DeSousa's shot is fine but not a huge deal in terms of "photography". That's not to say I don't like the image but for that particular shot I give him higher points as a Producer or a Director moreso than a camera man.
I mean the power or WOW it holds, is more in the set-up, organization, costume, smoke machine etc. In a sense he took a picture of existing art OR he created a work of art and then took a picture of it..
I guess to explain my point this image that I took Sunday evening might help.
I only took the picture but there was a choreographer, a lighting director, a costume designer, dancers etc. I would credit them with this scene and NOT me the photographer. I credit Jorge for pulling it off and the fact that he played all those rolls is something in itself BUT DPCers tend to forsake photographic elements when a concept or stunning production comes into play.
Would that image be better if I had done it all?
Let it fly...
eta: I should add that the more I look at that shot the more I like it as a photograph but conceptually I've seen the Jesus theme done the same way so many times, I'm a bit tired of it. My friend Renee Cox made big news in the city when Rudy Giulliani tried to have her work removed from a publically funded exhibit...
[thumb]747800[/thumb]
Yo Mamas Last Supper
That was taken back in 1996 so the concept of recreating biblical scenes in a contemporary fashion isn't hitting on terribly new ground.
Message edited by author 2008-12-16 13:11:16. |
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12/16/2008 10:37:04 AM · #127 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
OK, I can agree with some of that. A) DPC does praise technicals. B) Photos of substance do have lasting appeal. I see lots of praise on emotional shots though. It's easiest to comment on technicals and that's probably why you see it done the most. Certainly if you are limiting your comments to 4-5 words which most are. All this being said, technically perfect shots are not automatically devoid of substance. Look at De Sousa's work. There is substance there in spades. Likewise, plenty of blurred, ugly shots have nothing to them. Even the ones that did it on purpose. |
DeSousa's shot is fine but not a huge deal in terms of "photography". That's not to say I don't like the image but for that particular shot I give him higher points as a Producer or a Director moreso than a camera man.
I mean the power or WOW it holds, is more in the set-up, organization, costume, smoke machine etc. In a sense he took a picture of existing art.
......
(Yo Mama's LastSupper) was taken back in 1996 so the concept of recreating biblical scenes in a contemporary fashion isn't hitting on terribly new ground. |
I am not sure about the overall relevance of what you're saying, Steve. If it's a statement of personal preference, then that's fine. But I'd take exception to it as a general statement that, in some way, photojournalism, candid, or emotive imagery is "more photography" or "better photography" than what deSouza did here... Look at what you're saying from an objective point of view:
When someone live Scalvert or deSouza imagines a scene, then choreographs the scene and lights the scene, then captures the scene with (at a minimum) complete technical fluency, this somehow makes the overall result less of a photograph than a work made by someone who happened to pass by an interesting or even arresting "real life" situation and had the presence of mind and skill enough to capture that instant of time? These are different endeavors, that's for sure, but why you feel the need to minimize the one, which seems to me to be a rather complete artistic expression, is beyond me.
In the case of your dancers, the key is that you didn't light them, nor did you choreograph them, so you're right to to take the credit there :-)
As for your last sentence (it's been done before), my response is "So what?" Everything has been done before, with few and memorable exceptions. And some themes are simply enduring themes, it's WHY they get done over and over. Religious imagery definitely falls into this category. Presumably you think West Side Story was a miserable, lame imitation of Shakespeare?
R.
Message edited by author 2008-12-16 10:37:57.
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12/16/2008 11:16:53 AM · #128 |
I picked ten fights in one...huh?
The last point first...
Most of of this is based on or stem for my perceptions of the site. In regards to "it's been done"...you're right. Who cares? I just sense that some folks are overly impressed with things that have been around for a long time and tend to credit the wrong people with the idea. Why does that bother me? I have no idea but it does. It bums me out that there seems to be a lack of originality on the front page a little too often, so I have a bit of a knee jerk reaction to people falling all over the place for things that are pretty old. I know some people around got their panties in a twist when half the site was crediting Joey with inventing grunge or being the king of that style, which had been around since before he was born. I know a few people that worked in advertising, MTV and video production who poineered that high impact, grunge video stuff that would have taken issue with it, as well. Love Joey...not his fault but the butt kissing was unbearable. It didn't bother me as much as it did others by a long stretch but it did seem somewhat ignorant and really strange.
My other poorly made point is based on what we've talking about a good deal in this thread and that's how the camera seems to take a far backseat to production. Boiling photography down to it's most basic two elements... The photographer and the camera with no pre or post production seems to be lost in the wash here. When people make an image or statement solely with the camera they seem to get pissed on by the voters. When they go out of their way to use the camera as the primary tool of communication, it appears to be an avenue that is so completely missunderstood and I think this site should make a concerted effort to break back to the camera, if it's to be considered a serious photography learning site.
Certainly pre production, set-ups and the photograph are not exclusive of one another and I didn't mean to say that ones better or purer. I was trying to say (and failed) that the average voter weighs concept and production value very high even when the image itself might not be all that great. To take it in another direction when a film wins an Oscar, the award goes to the Director or Producers not the camera man. We wear all those hats, Producer, Directior, Cameraman etc. so it's all fair and even when we award our Ribbons (Oscars) to any given image. With all three titles we are one in the same but it's the Producer/Director side that garners the most respect here and less the cameraman...to some extent. I wonder if that makes any sense...?
I should also make clear when I say "pure photography" I don't mean to say it's better in any way but have grown weary of people diminsishing a skill set that relies only on the camera without relying on other elements such as Photoshop. Nothing wrong with PS either but some folks should get back to some of the basics at least in terms of understanding. I'd say it's clear based on the voting that "pure photography" is almost lost here and that's a shame.
I think many people here agreed and weren't thrilled when PS was taking over the front page. I was simply shining the light on the other side which is "the wow" of pre production. I'm certainly making some broad general points but as I see it production, ideas, concepts, gimmicks and PS win the most applause and attention, not photographs.
Hope that's a little better...maybe a bit clearer?
Message edited by author 2008-12-16 13:08:24. |
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12/16/2008 11:41:42 AM · #129 |
| Is the guy on the far left in that Yo Mamma shot a Klingon? |
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12/16/2008 11:58:01 AM · #130 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Is the guy on the far left in that Yo Mamma shot a Klingon? |
They all kinda look like Klingons. Don't they? |
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12/16/2008 01:56:55 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Hope that's a little better...maybe a bit clearer? |
Yes, that's a much better-modulated statement, thank you :-) We're even in basic agreement on that. It isn't that the complex stuff is bad, it's that the simple stuff, the gestalt of photographer-as-camera gets lost in the shuffle on this site.
Of course, a lot of that's due to the way we are set up: the participants we attract and retain tend to be photographers who like to be given puzzles to solve, more or less, because that's the fundamental nature of our challenges.
R.
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12/16/2008 05:50:33 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
Hope that's a little better...maybe a bit clearer? |
Yes, that's a much better-modulated statement, thank you :-) We're even in basic agreement on that. It isn't that the complex stuff is bad, it's that the simple stuff, the gestalt of photographer-as-camera gets lost in the shuffle on this site.
Of course, a lot of that's due to the way we are set up: the participants we attract and retain tend to be photographers who like to be given puzzles to solve, more or less, because that's the fundamental nature of our challenges.
R. |
True. To put it another way the challenges tend to be very childish and trival in nature and so they are treated as such. It's just a game for most. If this was truly a learning site we would take things a little more seriously in both topic selections and in the voting process. Calls have been made to have a challenge or two to be run by selected judges with the idea that substance might have a chance to win over style but those requests continue to be ignored. Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you. I'm surprised someone doesn't just come to my house and offer to click my shutter button.
Message edited by author 2008-12-16 17:52:57.
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12/16/2008 05:57:32 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by yanko:
...
....Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you.... |
In your opinion, what would make a great list of 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking? |
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12/16/2008 06:15:35 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by yanko:
True. To put it another way the challenges tend to be very childish and trival in nature and so they are treated as such. It's just a game for most. If this was truly a learning site we would take things a little more seriously in both topic selections and in the voting process. Calls have been made to have a challenge or two to be run by selected judges with the idea that substance might have a chance to win over style but those requests continue to be ignored. Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you. I'm surprised someone doesn't just come to my house and offer to click my shutter button. |
I've ranted a number of times regarding Challenges where the learning experience seemed pretty superficial. Like the Street Challenges where a very rich subject yielded fairly wimpy results that IMO didn't reflect or show any understanding of the genre.
Sure, people toy with the idea of bluring for a week and then vote on it but do they really come to understand it's power or charm? Once the Challenge is over they revert back to bur is bad or distracting...
Generally speaking, of course but it appeared we ended up right where we started. Sadly, if the learning experience only goes as far as exploring DPC inward (ie. searching previous Challenges for the winners) we're kind of like Gerbils spinning on the wheel.
Juried Challenges, themed or Free would do wonders for the site. Hopefully the chosen jury would have an educated eye and the same old stuff would be harder to sell or hide behind. Another idea would be to run certain Theme Challenges for a month in place of the Free Studies. Street Photography for example, takes some culling and patience. what people could come up with in a months time would blow the sox off of what is forced out in one week. Shooting for a Street Challenge in a weeks time will produce very mechanical, contrived work and again, we're left right where we started...in the shallow end of the pool.
Message edited by author 2008-12-16 18:43:43. |
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12/16/2008 06:16:25 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by L2:
In your opinion, what would make a great list of 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking? |
Jeez...if we had to think critically of each image before voting on it then gahhhhh.
Personally I come here for the eye candy....if I wanted to think about Art I'd go to a museum or gallery, (not that I'd ever do that either). :)
bazz.
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12/16/2008 06:28:26 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by yanko:
...
....Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you.... |
In your opinion, what would make a great list of 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking? |
I am heading out the door right now but when I get back I will answer that.
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12/16/2008 06:42:05 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by yanko:
...
....Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you.... |
In your opinion, what would make a great list of 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking? |
I am heading out the door right now but when I get back I will answer that. |
Richard IM'd me with his answer. He asked me to post them for him:
Yanko's 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking:
1. Brown
2. Deer
3. Cats
4. Bubbles
5. Hot nude women |
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12/16/2008 06:47:58 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
5. Hot nude women |
Huh? This one baffles me. |
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12/16/2008 07:00:31 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by CEJ:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
5. Hot nude women |
Huh? This one baffles me. |
Me too. But that's what he told me to type. |
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12/16/2008 07:16:15 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
I've ranted a number of times regarding Challenges where the learning experience seemed pretty superficial. Like the Street Challenges where a very rich subject yielded fairly wimpy results that IMO didn't reflect or show any understanding of the genre.
Sure, people toy with the idea of bluring for a week and then vote on it but do they really come to understand it's power or charm? Once the Challenge is over they revert back to bur is bad or distracting... |
I think you're giving up too soon. Challenges like the ones above *do* educate. Those results are diffused by (a) having them so rarely and (b) new voters constantly coming in. More challenges like the above would only be a good thing. |
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12/16/2008 07:21:52 PM · #141 |
Personally I've always felt that you need to know how to take a technically perfect shot BEFORE you can take an imperfect shot. If you are going to break the rules, you need to know why the rules are there in the first place and when they can be broken. There's no use in going straight there, IMO. If you do, good shots become more accidental than purposeful and that doesn't mean much to me no matter what genre you are in.
Message edited by author 2008-12-16 19:22:13. |
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12/16/2008 08:22:52 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Personally I've always felt that you need to know how to take a technically perfect shot BEFORE you can take an imperfect shot. If you are going to break the rules, you need to know why the rules are there in the first place and when they can be broken. There's no use in going straight there, IMO. If you do, good shots become more accidental than purposeful and that doesn't mean much to me no matter what genre you are in. |
Absolutely. I wish more poets could write a sonnet. |
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12/16/2008 09:25:47 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Personally I've always felt that you need to know how to take a technically perfect shot BEFORE you can take an imperfect shot. If you are going to break the rules, you need to know why the rules are there in the first place and when they can be broken. There's no use in going straight there, IMO. If you do, good shots become more accidental than purposeful and that doesn't mean much to me no matter what genre you are in. |
I couldn't agree more. Not just in photography, but in the other creative disciplines as well (Why do you think modern art that looks like "your kid could draw it" gets acclaim?) |
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12/17/2008 06:35:51 AM · #144 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Personally I've always felt that you need to know how to take a technically perfect shot BEFORE you can take an imperfect shot. If you are going to break the rules, you need to know why the rules are there in the first place and when they can be broken. There's no use in going straight there, IMO. If you do, good shots become more accidental than purposeful and that doesn't mean much to me no matter what genre you are in. |
I don't think that's ever been in question. I'm sure most everyone agrees when it comes to learning the basic skills set. It's when somebody elects to show something in a different manner and gets chastised for it. People do need to learn, that there's another realm of possibilities or an alternative way of showing things.
As an example, read Pro Fates comments on that shot. Incredibly, they generated 4 PM's telling me to relax even though I was actually laughing. The word "banal" came up twice in different PMs though on a brite note, I hung this at my show and sold three prints. In short, that's where you can see how the teachings or rules get so twisted and lost to the point where the entire meaning of an image (one, full of symbols and multiple metaphors)was erased by a technical mania. My skins pretty thick but from what I know, that's the kind of stuff that sent Ubique, Xion and Boysetsfire screaming for the hills. It kills creative thought or expression.
I won't go so far as to say it's rampant but it certainly exists in force and should be addressed. As we've seen it's been a strong negative and has caused some people to leave.
eta: What does make this site great are the other comments left on that shot by De Sousa, KevinRiggs, timfythetoo, posthumous, Gordon, Sunshine86...which help feed the creative soul, not kill it.
All for now.
Message edited by author 2008-12-17 13:12:42. |
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12/17/2008 05:30:45 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by yanko:
...
....Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you.... |
In your opinion, what would make a great list of 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking? |
I am heading out the door right now but when I get back I will answer that. |
Richard IM'd me with his answer. He asked me to post them for him:
Yanko's 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking:
1. Brown
2. Deer
3. Cats
4. Bubbles
5. Hot nude women |
That free study entry was suppose to be a secret.
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12/17/2008 07:50:23 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by L2:
Originally posted by yanko:
...
....Myself and others have suggested challenge themes that would require a little more critical thinking but those are never picked. Instead we get the same silly themes we've had several times before, which only leads to people looking up the challenge histories so they can just repeat the shots that were entered before. Hell, you don't even have to look them up any more. Any time a challenge is selected someone always starts a thread and posts the direct links for you.... |
In your opinion, what would make a great list of 5 challenges that would inspire critical thinking? |
I am heading out the door right now but when I get back I will answer that. |
Sorry it took so long to get back to you. I don't have 5 great challenge ideas but I do have some ideas that I think would be helpful to not only the learning process but also keep things fresh and new.
For starters:
- Get rid of the repeat challenges or at the very least keep them to a minimum and hide the previous challenges so they are not used as cheatsheets by both the photographer and the voter.
- More genre and technical challenges but with a twist. Lets have a page that is required viewing before you can submit or vote. This page would describe the topic, its history, examples of its application. It should also encourage the photographer to explore new applications of the technique being tested. For example, if the challenge is "Rembrandt Lighting" and NOT "Rembrandt Portrait" then encourage the use of the lighting technique with any subject. Maybe call it "Rembrandt Lighting: No Portraits" just to make it clear that creativity is being tested just as much as knowledge of the concept. This is the sort of thing I would find more useful as a member who has been here a while. It's not a challenge you can just browse the internet to figure out what to shoot. You'd have to think about what the priniciples are and how you can use them in a new way. Now this might cut down on total entries but that would be a good thing because then the voter might also spend more time judging each entry. That can't be a bad thing.
Message edited by author 2008-12-17 19:52:44.
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12/17/2008 08:04:35 PM · #147 |
| I like your Hot Nude Women idea better. Actually I think your ideas are quite decent. |
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12/17/2008 08:06:56 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I like your Hot Nude Women idea better. Actually I think your ideas are quite decent. |
Are you going for another SP of yourself again!!!
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12/17/2008 08:08:36 PM · #149 |
Dude...man, we think alike...
I was about to suggest Vermeer Lighting: No Portraits
All kidding aside, I think you're right. A few times I'd suggested a little more focus or clarification to Challenge themes but people interpreted it as I was trying to box people in but I thought there were so many rich possibilities no matter how they cut it. Just to avoid a watered down free for all.
I also thought that an official posting of a wide variety of definitions for a genre would be good to let folks see the possibilities but how do you force them to read, is the question. Still a good idea.
Message edited by author 2008-12-17 20:26:49. |
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12/17/2008 08:23:13 PM · #150 |
If you write up such challenge topics and descriptions, they will almost surely be used. If you write up a page on the technique, history, etc., I'm pretty sure we can figure out a way to link to it from the challenge description page, but I'm not sure we can make people read it before submitting, nor if we should ...
If you write up your technique description page as a tutorial, maybe with some suggestions on how to achieve the effect with different subjects, I think you still get a free month membership/extension or a print credit.
Message edited by author 2008-12-17 20:25:24. |
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