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12/01/2008 11:31:29 PM · #26 |
| Don't know if it's the Globe and Mail or what but both our links are to the same article Louis. I wouldn't put it past them to conglomerate both article's comments into one, it's been done before. |
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12/03/2008 01:29:34 PM · #27 |
The Coalition petition to counter the demagoguery of the Prime Minister. Not that I think democracies should be conducted via informal polls, but you have to fight fire with fire.
The nerve of Harper claiming that a coalition undermines Parliamentary democracy. It's disgusting. He's appealing to the masses that were too busy rolling doobs to pay attention in high school history class. Jesus.
edit: poles -> polls (sorry to my Slavic friends)
Message edited by author 2008-12-03 13:36:22. |
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12/03/2008 01:35:28 PM · #28 |
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12/03/2008 01:36:15 PM · #29 |
ditto! |
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12/03/2008 03:52:39 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
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... can't say that I am. If indeed the general populace had wanted either the Liberals or the NDP in power, then I remain confident that one of these parties would have won.
I may not be a big fan to Mr. Harper, but the fact remains that he did win the election, and gained more seats in the process.
Sorry, but if we truly want to hear the voice of the population, then let's have an election... and then we will truly know what the Canadian populace wants.
Ray |
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12/03/2008 04:25:47 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
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... can't say that I am. If indeed the general populace had wanted either the Liberals or the NDP in power, then I remain confident that one of these parties would have won.
I may not be a big fan to Mr. Harper, but the fact remains that he did win the election, and gained more seats in the process.
Sorry, but if we truly want to hear the voice of the population, then let's have an election... and then we will truly know what the Canadian populace wants.
Ray |
After much reading on the issue I tend to agree. I'm seeing greedy power hungry wannabees using the economic crisis(what crisis) to attain their dreams of becoming a leader of this country. Dion should step away from all this today, he's already committed to leaving, well then leave, you are insignificant in this process and it only makes the Liberal Party look desperate; leave that to the Tories.
An alliance with the Bloc, who would have thought?
This all smells bad to me and I don't believe we'll be in a better place with the coalition in power.
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12/03/2008 04:45:35 PM · #32 |
Your request Ray is the last thing supporters of the coalition want... although I'm not sure there are any coalition supporters as much as there are Harper haters. Hatred as we all know is a very powerful motivator. Some I fear would rather see the country fall into the abyss than have to live with a legitimate PM they HATE.
Louis, you of course state your opinion with a great deal of passion and cite some very real inconsistencies with Harper and the Conservative party but I'm troubled with the way you imply that hypocricy and underhandedness is limited to one party. You're obviosly a student of political history and at first glance very persuasive in your arguments but...
One question that troubles me... Why now? With an election barely in the can and this lack of confidence in Harper a long standing one, why didn't this coalition form prior to the last election being called ans save our economy tens of millions of dollars.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
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... can't say that I am. If indeed the general populace had wanted either the Liberals or the NDP in power, then I remain confident that one of these parties would have won.
I may not be a big fan to Mr. Harper, but the fact remains that he did win the election, and gained more seats in the process.
Sorry, but if we truly want to hear the voice of the population, then let's have an election... and then we will truly know what the Canadian populace wants.
Ray |
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12/03/2008 04:55:25 PM · #33 |
Can Arnold run for PM?
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12/03/2008 06:47:25 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Can Arnold run for PM?
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This one is probably more accurate:
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12/03/2008 06:55:58 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Eyesup:
even if the 'coalition' is formed, I couldn't see it lasting very long (certainly not past the Liberal leadership convention) |
In their talks to forge the coalition, the parties are fundamentally agreeing that it will govern for a minimum of two and a half years, and they'll have the seats to make it so. I understand that so long as a government is comprised of parties with different ideologies, the government is in a kind of flux, but I don't believe the opposition parties are as cynical and duplicitous as the Conservatives. |
Actually only 18 months. That's the term the Bloc has given that they will support the Liberals and NDP then they will renegotiate.
ETA: My impression of Dion through the whole signing process. I can picture him saying...
"I get to be Prime Minister. I get to be Prime Minister." -- said while jumping up and down with glee trying not to grin.
ETA: The Bloc could bring it down at any time since they can veto anything put forward if they feel it is detrimental to Quebec.
Message edited by author 2008-12-03 19:34:05. |
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12/03/2008 11:18:27 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
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... can't say that I am. If indeed the general populace had wanted either the Liberals or the NDP in power, then I remain confident that one of these parties would have won. |
But a majority of the general populace did want the Liberals or NDP in power, Ray. And in parliamentary democracy, it's the right of the Opposition to defeat the government and offer an alternative based on a coalition, something many of our more shrill compatriots seem to be mistaking for a "coup d'état". It's a shame so many are so ignorant about the way their own government works.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I may not be a big fan to Mr. Harper, but the fact remains that he did win the election, and gained more seats in the process. |
...but with less of the popular vote this time, interestingly enough. He does not have a majority. If he refuses to govern like a sane person, he should have the courage to face the House, not run in fear of being defeated in a confidence vote. There is reason not to like him, and his bullying of the House and the other parties as though he were a watered down version of Hugo Chavez or Robert Mugabe is the best reason.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Sorry, but if we truly want to hear the voice of the population, then let's have an election... and then we will truly know what the Canadian populace wants. |
No thanks. I don't have the stomach for ten elections in ten years that essentially returns the same results, irrespective of the winning party. If the Liberals are elected in a minority, the Conservatives would hardly have the credibility to form a coalition if they are whining about coalition governments now. If the Conservatives win, it's a foolish waste of money that nets the exact same result.
I get the sense people don't like the idea of a coalition simply because it hasn't been done in Canada in recent memory. This is our form of government. In a country where we now have five major political parties, an election result turning out a minority government is all but guaranteed. You'd better get used to the idea of coalition governments. Despite Harper's disingenuous yapping about the subversion of democracy -- a disgusting lie, an insult to anyone who's ever taken high school history lessons -- coalition governments are the future for this country. |
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12/03/2008 11:40:26 PM · #37 |
Louis, it may not have ever been done but now it's being done with a party that has an open policy of not wanting to be a part of Canada, that's where this whole thing becomes a circus and cannot be taken seriously. I can't let my government be run by a party that sits with separatists just because it benefits their current power grab. Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? Only winners in this I see is Gilles Duceppe and Stephan Dion, two wannabees that will never ever get a taste of power except through coalitions based on media perceptions that things are going bad economically in Canada.
Do you think we could have waited until Jan for a budget and financial stimulus for Canada as it stands today economically? I hope your answer is yes, so why all the fuss about how bad we need stimuli? How many Canadians are losing their homes? Same as last year and the year before... Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK but not according to the dooms day naysayers that comprise our opposition parties. Harper is an ass and deserves to be replaced by his own party members, not the opposition. That would cement his fate and he would wander off into the setting sun to where Joe Clark is still trying to convince people he was once PM. Or at least trying to convince himself it wasn't a dream. ;]
Message edited by author 2008-12-03 23:41:44. |
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12/04/2008 09:36:05 AM · #38 |
My impression of the coalition is that this has been the plan all along so it didn't matter what the outcome of the election was. By hook or by crook, a minority government was going to be defeated.
Concessions were made regarding what the opposition was complaining about. However, since the real plan was to bring down the government that didn't matter. How the conservatives were handling the economy -- believe it or not they were doing things just on a proactive basis rather than a reactive one -- just not the way the opposition thought was the right way.
Having said that, Harper has shot himself in the foot (possibly more than once). Just take a look at how he's walking.
Harper should be meeting with the GG at this very moment so we can just sit and wait for the outcome of that and go from there. If she does allow Harper to halt parliament until late January, maybe both sides will learn something and the budget presented will reflect a bit of what both the conservatives and the opposition want. I kind of doubt it but let's be a little bit optimistic. :o/
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12/04/2008 10:08:38 AM · #39 |
I hope the GG shuts it down. This is just plain wrong for Canada at this current time. My nose tells me this is not good for Canada and may put us in a place we do not want to be in.
If I were a Bloc supporter I would be claiming victory. They're getting power IN Canada, something I don't think they planned on. Thank you Mr Dion and Mr Layton. You are giving Canada what IT DOESN'T WANT. from coast to coast.
A shameful situation, to say the least. |
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12/04/2008 10:13:42 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by Jac:
..... Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? ..... |
I'm fine with Quebec separating.
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12/04/2008 10:17:22 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Jac:
..... Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? ..... |
I'm fine with Quebec separating. |
I most definitely am not! |
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12/04/2008 10:20:26 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Jac:
..... Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? ..... |
I'm fine with Quebec separating. |
I most definitely am not! |
You could come & live in Burlington. We could hang out & shoot together...
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12/04/2008 11:28:22 AM · #43 |
Thanks for the invite Slip but...
Roots are deeply planted here although if my two sons end up leaving here I just may follow, but that's for another day...if ever. Who would we shoot first? :) |
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12/04/2008 01:47:55 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Louis, it may not have ever been done but now it's being done with a party that has an open policy of not wanting to be a part of Canada, that's where this whole thing becomes a circus and cannot be taken seriously. |
Why? The Bloc are signatories to an agreement that simply says they won't vote against confidence votes put forward by the Coalition until 2010. What could be wrong with that? The government will actually work for a year and a half minimum. Or have you bought into the Conservative lies that the Bloc is simply waiting to blackmail their way into separation? Nonsense. Nothing that has been suggested by the Coalition was not suggested by Harper himself in 1996, 2000, and 2004. The man is a degenerate liar. That anyone would believe anything he says at this point is fairly shocking.
Originally posted by Jac:
I can't let my government be run by a party that sits with separatists just because it benefits their current power grab. |
How about if it benefits running the country in a sound, bipartisan way?
Originally posted by Jac:
Imagine, I live in Quebec and I'm appalled at the idea so can you imagine how the rest of Canada feels right now? |
The majority, 51%, want Harper out. You're a minority in Quebec; most are absolutely appalled at Harper's banana republic style of politicking. Is this Zimbabwe, or Canada? (Are you Francophone or Anglophone? Most Francophones are more furious at Harper than they are suspicious of the Coalition, it seems to me.)
Originally posted by Jac:
Only winners in this I see is Gilles Duceppe and Stephan Dion, two wannabees that will never ever get a taste of power except through coalitions based on media perceptions that things are going bad economically in Canada. |
Tell that to the people who've lost their manufacturing jobs in the last two months. C'mon, Jac. There's a global economic crisis that Canada is part of. Incidentally, if you watched the Leader debates, you'll know that Duceppe has no false ideas about being in power. He's the least disingenuous of all the party leaders. If I could vote for him, I would. He'd make a great Prime Minister but for the fact that he's a sovereigntist. He's the best politician on the scene, aside from Bob Rae.
Originally posted by Jac:
Do you think we could have waited until Jan for a budget and financial stimulus for Canada as it stands today economically? |
Sure. It would take that long for the Coalition to deliver a budget anyway.
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy.
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12/04/2008 02:03:19 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy. |
My job is cut from 5 to 2 days per week now, due to the economy. I took out a second mortgage to get by. We'll be OK for five or six months, then we won't. That will be accelerated if my job goes away completely. From where I'm sitting, the economy sucks major ass.
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12/04/2008 03:36:13 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Jac:
Job growth is up again, productivity is up again, every thing is OK... |
Jac, are you kidding? Show me some stats, buddy. [/quote]
//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a7vpdAIcY3Yc&refer=canada
Just one source. Let's talk about what's going on, not what the fear mongers want to have you believe. Sure the big three are suffering and they're dragging down some good supply and support companies with them but they did it to themselves.
Harper has lied... unusual for a politician I know... but the biggest assholes (the Three Amigos) are the ones that are trying to scare the public into believing that the sky is falling and they're the only ones that can save us. In the long run they'll do more damage to our economy with their fear mongering that the North American auto industry.
Oh loooook... Toyota just opened a new plant in Ontario today. How'd that happen? I hear it was quite an event. I wonder who'll get the roughly 1200 jobs.
Message edited by author 2008-12-04 15:39:53. |
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12/04/2008 03:43:12 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Duceppe ... He's the best politician on the scene, aside from Bob Rae.
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Louis, please tell me this is a typo. Are you talking about the same Bob Rae whose party almost brought the province of Ontario to ruination.
Ray |
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12/04/2008 05:16:43 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Qart:
//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a7vpdAIcY3Yc&refer=canada
Just one source. Let's talk about what's going on, not what the fear mongers want to have you believe. |
Sure. From that article:
"[Canada's] economy will expand at a 0.6 percent pace this year and next, the slowest since the last recession in 1991-92, the Bank of Canada said Oct. 23. 'Canada was hanging in there better than most economies' in the quarter, said Doug Porter, an economist with BMO Capital Markets in Toronto. Still, 'with the U.S. economy breaking quickly, it’s hard to see Canada avoiding a recession.'"
Yep. "Everything's ok," as Jac said. Please.
Originally posted by Qart:
Harper has lied... unusual for a politician I know... but the biggest assholes (the Three Amigos) are the ones that are trying to scare the public into believing that the sky is falling and they're the only ones that can save us. |
Um, no. They're trying to tell you that in our Parliamentary democracy, a coalition that will be guaranteed support and confidence in the House by a majority is a bona fide government according to our constitution. The only asshole shrieking about the sky falling is Harper, who manufactured this crisis so that his party wouldn't have to face defeat by a vote of confidence in the House, a vote he knew he was going to lose. Why is is that so many constitutional scholars are saying that the de facto result here is that Harper is simply running away from such a vote? Turn on the TV to hear them.
Originally posted by Qart:
In the long run they'll do more damage to our economy with their fear mongering that the North American auto industry. |
Yeah, that's right. Asking to form a constitutionally sound government comprised of members voted for by 62% of Canadians is fear mongering.
Originally posted by Qart:
Oh loooook... Toyota just opened a new plant in Ontario today. How'd that happen? I hear it was quite an event. I wonder who'll get the roughly 1200 jobs. |
And how long has that been in the works? And you think that's a sign that everything's just peachy, or that the economy will somehow simply chug along with Harper and his Cons smiling fixedly from the sidelines? Think those 1,200 jobs will offset the 2,000 jobs lost in manufacturing in London, Ontario alone? |
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12/04/2008 05:18:28 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Louis:
Duceppe ... He's the best politician on the scene, aside from Bob Rae.
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Louis, please tell me this is a typo. Are you talking about the same Bob Rae whose party almost brought the province of Ontario to ruination. |
That's the one. |
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12/04/2008 06:09:21 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Qart:
//www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=a7vpdAIcY3Yc&refer=canada
Just one source. Let's talk about what's going on, not what the fear mongers want to have you believe. |
Sure. From that article:
"[Canada's] economy will expand at a 0.6 percent pace this year and next, the slowest since the last recession in 1991-92, the Bank of Canada said Oct. 23. 'Canada was hanging in there better than most economies' in the quarter, said Doug Porter, an economist with BMO Capital Markets in Toronto. Still, 'with the U.S. economy breaking quickly, it’s hard to see Canada avoiding a recession.'"
Yep. "Everything's ok," as Jac said. Please.
Hardly the end of the world and hardly enough to prompt a non confidence full scale attack. Would expect numbers to be far worse than these to cause such a stir since this fact is what the coalition claim is the nudge they needed... or more acurately they were laying in wait for.
Originally posted by Qart:
Harper has lied... unusual for a politician I know... but the biggest assholes (the Three Amigos) are the ones that are trying to scare the public into believing that the sky is falling and they're the only ones that can save us. |
Um, no. They're trying to tell you that in our Parliamentary democracy, a coalition that will be guaranteed support and confidence in the House by a majority is a bona fide government according to our constitution. The only asshole shrieking about the sky falling is Harper, who manufactured this crisis so that his party wouldn't have to face defeat by a vote of confidence in the House, a vote he knew he was going to lose. Why is is that so many constitutional scholars are saying that the de facto result here is that Harper is simply running away from such a vote? Turn on the TV to hear them.
Sorry but the CBC is hardly the place to get unbiased info. :) Most reports and comentary are having trouble getting past the optics of this. Interesting observation made today by some political scholar... wish I could remeber his name... anyway he said that Bob Ray will go down in history as one of the only politicians who destroyed his career twice in two seperate eras. Afraid I have to agree. Time will tell.
Originally posted by Qart:
In the long run they'll do more damage to our economy with their fear mongering that the North American auto industry. |
Yeah, that's right. Asking to form a constitutionally sound government comprised of members voted for by 62% of Canadians is fear mongering.
You forgot to mention that the 62% were divided between 3 parties that despise each other and in one case the country they belong to.
Originally posted by Qart:
Oh loooook... Toyota just opened a new plant in Ontario today. How'd that happen? I hear it was quite an event. I wonder who'll get the roughly 1200 jobs. |
And how long has that been in the works? And you think that's a sign that everything's just peachy, or that the economy will somehow simply chug along with Harper and his Cons smiling fixedly from the sidelines? Think those 1,200 jobs will offset the 2,000 jobs lost in manufacturing in London, Ontario alone? |
My point was more about how some auto builders can expand while others scream for a bailout, but yes 1200 jobs says something considering this is just one company and one example.
Bob Ray huh... You kill me. |
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